MTG Salvation

Quote from Darkflame »

edit: I am debating switching Gisela for Lyra but not sure how much a difference that 1 extra mana would make. Feel free to weigh in .

I prefer Gisela for a voltron deck because that one turn in speed is important but depending on how much you want to put emphasis on it being an angel deck and not a voltron deck I think moving to Lyra is a reasonable consideration. This is coming from someone who plays Gisela, the Broken Blade as a commander.

Quote from 3drinks »

It's not aggro. You can't aggro in commander because of multiple players and increased life totals, so get that notion out of your head. Aggro doesn't exist in commander. Full stop. The trifecta of archetypes is combo < control < ramp (which really is a specialized term for "midrange"). So, we're a combo deck that struggles at fighting other combo decks. Yes, this is as true of any deck without countermagic that is fighting against something that wins in one key turn. This is nothing new.

The issue you seem to be projecting here is all the builds of Kaalia you have witnessed do the same linear game plan, and likely lack the finesse that goes into proper tuning to make the deck do what the deck does best. Indeed, just about 80% of all first draft lists will boast some 30+ high end (6+ cmc) angels, demons, and dragons that don't actually win the game that really show their struggle when smart players take out the cheat mechanism as they should. So, yes, I can understand why your own view of the deck is as such. As well, I can understand that you prefer not to play it since many optimal lists (mine included) plays more like mass land destruction tribal than anything, often boasting of six or more land wipes in the deck at a time. Here's where the situation changes though;

A deck is only as linear as it is built to be. What? Let's say that one more time for the folks in the back. A deck is only as linear as it is built to be. If you build around one central plan, and that plan is easily contested, yes, you are going to appear to others as you having a bad deck. And, yes, most decks are built in such a way to as to be ignorant to this truth because they want to live the dream or they believe their plan is a hundred feet tall and bulletproof. What those players, and the average Kaalia resource doesn't take into account is, Kaalia is the gateway to the strategy, but she is not the only strategy. So you spent two premium removal spells on my 2/2. Okay, cool, great. Here's this Sneak Attack that lets me do the same thing. Or this Reanimate/Through the Breach. Quicksilver Amulet is still a card that exists, even if it's been kinda halfway replaced by Planar Bridge. Cheating cards out for far less than their retail pricepoint is a time-honoured tradition in Magic from the living death decks of old, to the more modernized birthing pod decks of today. That's what you're really doing, you're cheating pricepoints and utilizing the great wealth of tutours you have to clock your opponent in a ferociously fast manner (you even have a legitimate one-shot KO punch at your disposal!) None of these strats are strats I'd consider douchebaggery or exceedingly offensive to the senses such as resource denial seems to do to you.

And then, even if resource denial was the only way to build the deck, why is that even a problem in a format where people can and will kill you on t2? This is a flash-hulk format, a cephalid breakfast format, an AEtherflux Reservoir format, an ANT/Unlife format..........but you're getting rustled over the person who wants to have fun with their discounted, iconic creature types? And for the record I've won games where I never resolved my Ravages of War. So...is this really an issue you have with the commander's lack of playability appeal, or is it maybe sitting across from an inexperienced or struggling pilot that may have a suboptimal list that is overwhelmed by the wealth of information out there and doesn't know where to start building? If it's the latter...shouldn't you as a responsible player, offer some kind of help even if it's a proper forum link to go seek advice further? Hell, you're a mod you were at one point a moderator on a forum with direct access to one of if not THE largest resources on the net for this particular deck.

I mean, unless you rather just pubstomp the poor individual. I know that's not your style...right? Wouldn't this be far more constructive to the conversation at-large than a mere summary dismissal of the archetype and commander in question?

I am not trying to fight with you about the viability of Kaalia. I don't play 1v1 commander or combo / MLD tactics as what I play with or against so it really isn't something that is in the scope of my own experience. My take away though is primarily that you are justifying that the viable way to build Kaalia is in a way that I refuse to play. I guess my question is at what level of play do you start comparing how viable commanders are against each other. I am not here right now to say she is more or less viable than something else but for example if I were playing to a level of competitive where I wasn't holding back I would perhaps ask myself why play Kaalia MLD over Uril MLD. I have no idea which one is better in a competitive setting but if I am not holding back on my builds I feel like that is a fast track to asking what is the best and playing that rather than having fun building something less than optimal. I am here talking about mono white tribal commanders after all (about as far from CEDH as I can get).

Aggro - I think aggro totally can work in commander. If you are playing combo / LD tactics in your meta its a lot less likely to be viable but I play aggro / voltron / tokens all the time in commander. Generally speaking it relies on having a very low curve and a high draw component but I would consider my Edgar vampires to be an aggro deck. I also have a few others like my abzan Tymna deck, Gisela voltron, and Ghalta decks to be aggro. I am not saying that any of these are optimal but generally speaking I think aggro can be done as long as you are not asking yourself how to maximize your chances of winning games. I would still say that I have a very respectable win percentage with these decks though but again I am not playing against fast combo win decks most of the time.

Linear - I guess my answer is more that I guessed what 80+% of your list was before opening it. Kaalia is very builds herself in that most of the on tribe creatures are very predictable. She costs 4 mana so most people build with 0-2 mana stones to ramp into her faster and or to give her haste when she does land. I have seen a few Kaalia decks against me and I feel with fairly good certainty that I know mostly what I am going to see every game I encounter her. This isn't to say that other commanders aren't like this or that this is a bad thing but I personally really like the deckbuilding aspects of commander and I feel like she is more predictable and or solved than many commanders. Its not a bad thing I think it more means that the difficulty floor in building and playing her tends to be a bit lower. That isn't to say that the ceiling on play / building isn't there.

My issue with Kaalia is that she is a commander that gives me reasons to not let my opponent play the game with if I have options to interact with it. The reason for this is 100% based on being in the blind on what is coming into play. I can't even wait to see where she is going before wanting or needing to answer her. I really can't even come up with a constructive criticism of how to help another player play it better because my entire issue with her is that as soon as she is revealed, everyone else at the table has reasons to mulligan into answers and stop her from being relevant in said game. I don't like cold shutting players down but there are a number of commanders out there that give incentive to stop them cold before you see what they are going to do. I really could highlight a LOT of commanders that fall into this category but Kaalia is sort of unique in that she falls off in her value after her first 1-2 casts where others might retain their value over time.

I don't know what me having been a mod has to do with this. In general I don't like goldfish commanders and I do feel that Kaalia falls into that category of commander. This is my own personal opinion. If that is something that others are interested in they are more than welcome to explore that avenue. I am not trying to demean the commander or those who play it I just think its valid to point out that she is kind of a glass cannon goldfish kind of commander. There is nothing wrong with that, its not my thing but I think its valid to point out that is kind of how its played.

Yea, she reminds me of Rafiq of the Many but designed in such a way where everyone has a reason to want to kill your commander before you see where its going. She is incredibly fragile to spot removal and gives your opponents reasons to keep you off of attacking. She is a glass cannon aggro / combo / LD style of deck through and through. Either just you get to play or you don't get to play has been my experience with Kaalia.

Quote from 3drinks »

*Looks to sig* no, you actually can build to one of the three types. And there's a second type coming soon-ish, I need time to compose those thoughts.

Lastly, your characterization of Kaalia being an aggro deck is wrong. This is a common misconception though so I won't hold it against you. Kaalia is actually a combo deck that pretends to be an aggro deck. Your "combo" here is setting up a board state where you can attack safely, and repeatedly, with your fragile 4cmc flyer.

Its a goldfish deck. It can be classified as aggro or combo, its probably some of both. I still think she is overall fragile and predictable. It can't fight all that well against opposing combo decks as the colors she is in leaves you with some odd tools for that. I just think it gets outclassed by other players running the same level of tactics (totally my own personal opinion not stating any sort of fact here). Kaalia should make you strong vs counter magic but instead its likely they just counter your commander.

My issue is mostly that the level of degeneracy that you need to stoop to to make Kaalia good seems questionable given that if you face the same level of degenerate effects I don't think she is that good. Again, this is my own personal opinions and not some level of fact.

Also, if you are aiming this at 1v1 discussion I have no experience to argue there one way or another. I am basing mine on multiplayer. I am only saying this because I know you do some 1v1.

Quote from FearDReaper »

Lyra, New Bruna and Kaalia seem to be the only generals with angel tribal synergy. Id personally go with Kaalia. Idk why people think it's so degenerate. Its good, don't get me wrong but there are far more degerate decks out there imo. As 3drinks said, there are ways to keep her around. Otherwise, just keep playing Sigarda or another strong angel without tribal mechanics like OG Gisela.

My issues with Kaalia are numberous:

• The commander is designed in such a way that she mostly becomes worthless after the second time you cast her. This means that she falls off hard if the game goes long in that she stops contributing fairly quickly.
• Many of the successful builds seem to be based on land disruption. I am not saying you can't play a fair game of magic and win with her but the options seem to be that you goldfish your opponents, disrupt their lands, or lose terribly.
• Its hard to build her with a single tribe focus. Each tribe tends to have its strong cards that they add but when you break down a Kaalia deck you are probably talking about 15-30ish creatures that probably fall into those three tribes. When you get past the fifth best card of each creature type its hard to start adding the less good cards of that tribe instead of the other tribes.

Kaalia is a goldfish aggro deck that builds itself. That is my issue with the commander. Its not good if it gets disrupted and slowed down and if you can come back from that its probably because you tend to blow up the lands. These are not things I enjoy about this game. I honestly don't even think that its that good because everyone at the table if they are holding spot removal should be (and usually is) thinking about just throwing it in your face on your first cast. I don't have a problem with if someone wants to play the commander, but its not a deck with very good long game potential if you ask me.

Quote from Darkflame »

@ISBPathfinder With running mono-white how do you deal with ramp outside of artifacts (I've shied away from artifact ramp lately because of all the artifact hate that people incorporated after C2018).

So, I think there are a few things to approach the concept with.

1) My "ramp" for the deck is as follows:

• Golden Guardian / Gold-Forge Garrison
• Solemn Simulacrum
• Sol Ring
• Dowsing Dagger / Lost Vale
• Mind Stone
• Sword of the Animist
• Conqueror's Galleon / Conqueror's Foothold

2) I play the deck very defensively asking myself how do I stay relivant and stay in this game. I play a lot of defensive tactics including wraths, Moat effects, and several vigilant / lifelink angels. For me, its not necessarily about being fast into the game so much as being robust and hard to remove from said game. Bruna isn't something that I ramp into so much as my recovery plan to stay in the game through removal / wraths.

Because I am not ramping into my commander I put more emphasis on just staying power. Card draw and making my land drops turn after turn is more relevant to me than ramping. Lots of my ramp package nets me lands which plays well into my plan to run 7ish wraths plan which helps reset the game which plays well to Bruna's strengths.

My list is in my signature or here if you want to see anything more of what I run.

Quote from Mazyloron »

My recommendation would also be Bruna, the fading light. Having a commander that has synergy with your deck is a lot more fun than simply having a generic beatstick that happens to be the same tribe.

Mono white is able to control and ramp reasonably well, so it should still fit your purpose.

On that note, I'm surprised that Lyra Dawnbringer hasn't been brought up.

The biggest problem with Lyra Dawnbringer is that she is kind of split between wanting to be voltron herself, a lifegain build, and an angel deck. Giving big expensive angels an anthem isn't nearly as efficient as giving small cheap creatures or tokens an anthem. I think she is cool but ultimately her anthem effect for other angels just isn't that impressive in commander. She is actually probably better with some angel token makers than she is actual angels with maybe the exception of the angel that makes angel tokens.

She has been really good in my Bruna, the fading light deck though. Turning Bruna into a 6/8 lifelinker with vigilance is crazy handy.

Quote from toctheyounger77 »

Without plugging directly for one of my lists, myself and ISBpathfinder have both had good success with mono white Bruna, the Fading Light. Neither one of our lists is strict angel tribal, although both run several. She's a really decent reanimation option with a fun second option in the meld ability.

Mono white is scary in terms of ramp and draw options, but building with this in mind mitigates that, and there's plenty of options for grinding out some good wins.

I agree

Its a very good robust control deck. Bruna makes you very sticky and good against wraths.