I definitely think lack of flip info is far more helpful to scum than day chat. Town are dealing with a lack of info; the more info they have, the better. Scum already have info; day chat helps, but they already have some knowledge.
Put it this way: if you knew you were town, would you rather have full flips, or scum not having daychat?
I'd take scum not having day chat over flips at all.
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Tubba + rhand/vez add up to a pretty solid investigative suite. Its a combo of hard to interpret/unreliable info, but its a bunch of it. Add in kamis role being loud and the random extra info tacked on to zdt role, and its even better
Zdt is a more powerful doc. I... dont really see how thats being argued hes a doc plus other stuff
DV roleblock plus busdrive another way to mess with mafias kills, lets call that a pretty powerful set of protective roles.
For killing roles im still thinking the very nature of the ghostbuster roles intrinsically balances, so no need for more.
So im calling that the equivalent of (at minimum) a cop and a jailer spread out among 5 town players.
A tracker that randomly offs himself and 2 shot self watcher plus a one-shot vanilla cop that only triggers when two players find each other is not equivalent in any way shape or form to a full cop.
I agree that the protection roles were reasonable. Zdt's role is equivalent to a doctor while DV has enough to not matter.
I don't know how you can claim that after Rodemy died town had higher chances when Night 1, every single attempt at anything by the town got blocked. Tubba got blocked by kami, dv got delayed and zdt got delayed. They practically ****ed with every role the town could use for anything useful. And if somehow zdt would have tried to prevent grape kill, it would've still sucked. I also don't know wtf silver is talking about claiming. The Ghosbusters only claimed day 2 with the exception of Highroller.
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All of you are missing a point. Why do the scum even have a strongarm for the first GB? They control one of the shots and they can't kill two people at once so the other shot is going to go off. As a mechanical ability that thing is just to **** ***** up for the town for no reason. It doesn't change numbers.
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If you don't think the power level of a role depends on the rest of the set up then we don't have anything worthwhile to talk about. A cop is much, much stronger if it's the only role in an otherwise vanilla set up than it is in a setup where the mafia have a godfather and a roleblocker.
DV's claim that his opinions are "facts" is spurious at best and I'm not entertaining this further.
If you want to talk about role interactions and whether I'm wrong, I'm open to having my mind changed, but the current conversation is verging on flaming and there's no call for that.
Oh yeah, rolecop and mindcontrol a player tonight is clearly *****tier when the town doesn't have useful roles, but if that's not balancing. Thanks for dismissing my arguments by giving an absolute statement that is extremely nitpicking of a single argument I made.
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Damn, silver's comments make me irrationally angry.
The free kill on GB is there to just **** up town roles. You can't put anti-claim mechanics in a game that **** up all other claims. Especially when it wouldn't even flip on the corpses of the mafia. This is a no-no in normals for me at least and is mostly what pushes this game over the line imho.
You had 2 shots and another one if 2 mafia died. So you could delay up to 6 people. I agree that delaying is not as powerful as a roleblock, but 2 delays in a night > roleblock, especially when town has 0 investigative worth their while.
What did it matter if KA's role is loud? How could the information that everybody in the town is tracked by scum could possibly have any relevance to town play? Maybe restricting targets to people already slmed so you don't give even more info, but that is a horrible play. The fact that KA targeted the only role that could see him and that I was lucky enough to activate the ability during that night is not a point in favour of this game being townsided. Ka could have targeted literally anyone else and he wouldn't have been caught. I could have forgot to use my ability and KA could target anyone.
The argument that Kami outs himself immediately is so flawed I don't even understand how you could reach that conclusion. Town literally have no way of knowing he is slimer, except my janky role.
The thing that bothers me most is that silver has to audacity to say he is offended by DV calling KA a ninja. Ninja is a bastard role that should only exist when there are watchers flooding the game. Being untargetable to a tracker or being a ninja is almost the same thing barring being the last scum or shenenigans at the end that leave only a pool of people who could have done the nightkill in a night.
You could say KA is a godfather and it would be just as true, except we don't have any cops.
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The game was horribly unbalanced and scum-sided. It didn't matter cause we failed horribly, but that's not what we are discussing.
Every town role was limited or nerfed. We even missed role reveals which is great for scum, because wtf is a mafia architect?
Every scum role had so many extra effects while town had extra bad effects. Me and Rhand had a QT, but we weren't confirmed to each other. If Rhand wasn't so townie I would've thought he was scum, just based on role. We got an ability only if we found each other and that ability is pretty *****. We had 2 scum targets that we could hit (KA was immune and tom was GB).
Our tracker lost his tracking by luck (????). I like most of the roles in the game, but this one is a slap in the face. Limited shots would have worked better.
My role was limited to two shots for some dumb reason. I honestly don't feel that having a passive self watch is powerful enough to get it limited by shots.
The GB were cool, but they were < normal day vigs. The problem is that you only get one chance to kill mafia while the other shot is almost guaranteed to hit town.
Gozer was kinda reasonable as a JOAT. I really don't like bus drives in the hands of town. It's one of the most dangerous roles in the hands of town to **** all actions (as it happened here. fortunately town actions were so bad that it didn't end up mattering. He also got abilities by votes which is another nerf albeit small.
The doctor was a cool design, but I think it was slightly worse or on parity with a normal doctor. He can't save the same person and there's a big chance he will die early (doctors usually protect valuable targets that will die quickly).
Scum had powerful to very powerful roles that only got better when scum died. Silver's role is resonable, although the extra shot is too much. Rodemy's role is not reasonable at all and is so freaking strong that the only thing keeping it back is the fact that the town roles are crap. And getting an extra shot of that ability shouldn't have even been in the discussion.
Tom being GB is reasonable, but instead of being treated like a potential dayvig, it was treated like a mafia goon which is even more baffling.
KA's role was downright bonkers. He could track the entire town in a few days and could direct the architect to whoever he wanted. The fact that he was immune to abilities is just way too much.
And then scum also had the strongarm kill on the Ghostbusters, which was totally unnecessary (town had 1 protective and a 1-shot roleblock + 1-shot bus drive) Scum shouldn't nerf the best town roles just by existing (this doesn't even take into account the situation where the roleblock could clear someone falsely or end up in a lynch on the doc).
I hate games without daytalk as scum, but it's about as powerful as a normal PR.
The no full role reveals would be reasonable FOR A NORMAL, which this was not. If your rolenames start being non-descriptive, you should reveal roles so people can make sense of what's happening. You don't have to reveal them if your roles are only classic roles that everybody knows. This was somewhat mitigated by DV, but even so it requires someone to be a live and waste abilities. I'd say no role reveals is about half a power role so this and the third town GB make up for the lack of daychat.
I thought KA was neutral just because of how absurdly good his role seemed.
I'd say the game is 60% to 65% in scum favour just bsaed on roles, but it's a very swingy setup and that number could be higher due to all the luck involved in the town's abilities.
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I first thought Rodemy made a single post with the blunder, but it was actually two separate posts. I thought Rodemy as town could have made those two posts (he does weird things) so I jumped off to see more from him. Rodemy is easily wagoned and I didn't really want to start an easy wagon, but I changed my mind after more from him.
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Yeah, it's silver/tom. Silver didn't even mention the possibility of scun tom and is pushing etr and ruma in a horrible manner. He is just thirsty for a lynch.
Can we lynch silver today?
Damn why is everyone so scummy.
vote silver
I mean, tom could be scum, but you'd have to explain all that Rodemy spew. I didn't mention Highroller scum worlds, either. I believe in those worlds less than I believe in EtR/Ruma worlds. Yeah, they're technically possible, but if Rodemy and Tom interacted like that as wolf partners...
I've been trying to get EtR lynched since yesterDay when I cased him. Do you think something has happened that makes him town?
Can you show what interactions you are talking about? I only remember typical scum-scum interactions between the two, or at least nothing outside their range.
tom/silver or tom/etr worlds make the most sense to me, but tom isn't as scummiest as a ton of other people so I don't have that much faith there.
I don't know who I want to lynch today, because nobody is really discussing anything. Vaimes is still MIA.
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Yeah, it's silver/tom. Silver didn't even mention the possibility of scun tom and is pushing etr and ruma in a horrible manner. He is just thirsty for a lynch.
Can we lynch silver today?
Damn why is everyone so scummy.
vote silver
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I'd take scum not having day chat over flips at all.
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A tracker that randomly offs himself and 2 shot self watcher plus a one-shot vanilla cop that only triggers when two players find each other is not equivalent in any way shape or form to a full cop.
I agree that the protection roles were reasonable. Zdt's role is equivalent to a doctor while DV has enough to not matter.
I don't know how you can claim that after Rodemy died town had higher chances when Night 1, every single attempt at anything by the town got blocked. Tubba got blocked by kami, dv got delayed and zdt got delayed. They practically ****ed with every role the town could use for anything useful. And if somehow zdt would have tried to prevent grape kill, it would've still sucked. I also don't know wtf silver is talking about claiming. The Ghosbusters only claimed day 2 with the exception of Highroller.
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Oh yeah, rolecop and mindcontrol a player tonight is clearly *****tier when the town doesn't have useful roles, but if that's not balancing. Thanks for dismissing my arguments by giving an absolute statement that is extremely nitpicking of a single argument I made.
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Rodemy's role was only kept in check by the fact that town had super *****ty abilities.
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The free kill on GB is there to just **** up town roles. You can't put anti-claim mechanics in a game that **** up all other claims. Especially when it wouldn't even flip on the corpses of the mafia. This is a no-no in normals for me at least and is mostly what pushes this game over the line imho.
You had 2 shots and another one if 2 mafia died. So you could delay up to 6 people. I agree that delaying is not as powerful as a roleblock, but 2 delays in a night > roleblock, especially when town has 0 investigative worth their while.
What did it matter if KA's role is loud? How could the information that everybody in the town is tracked by scum could possibly have any relevance to town play? Maybe restricting targets to people already slmed so you don't give even more info, but that is a horrible play. The fact that KA targeted the only role that could see him and that I was lucky enough to activate the ability during that night is not a point in favour of this game being townsided. Ka could have targeted literally anyone else and he wouldn't have been caught. I could have forgot to use my ability and KA could target anyone.
The argument that Kami outs himself immediately is so flawed I don't even understand how you could reach that conclusion. Town literally have no way of knowing he is slimer, except my janky role.
The thing that bothers me most is that silver has to audacity to say he is offended by DV calling KA a ninja. Ninja is a bastard role that should only exist when there are watchers flooding the game. Being untargetable to a tracker or being a ninja is almost the same thing barring being the last scum or shenenigans at the end that leave only a pool of people who could have done the nightkill in a night.
You could say KA is a godfather and it would be just as true, except we don't have any cops.
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Every town role was limited or nerfed. We even missed role reveals which is great for scum, because wtf is a mafia architect?
Every scum role had so many extra effects while town had extra bad effects. Me and Rhand had a QT, but we weren't confirmed to each other. If Rhand wasn't so townie I would've thought he was scum, just based on role. We got an ability only if we found each other and that ability is pretty *****. We had 2 scum targets that we could hit (KA was immune and tom was GB).
Our tracker lost his tracking by luck (????). I like most of the roles in the game, but this one is a slap in the face. Limited shots would have worked better.
My role was limited to two shots for some dumb reason. I honestly don't feel that having a passive self watch is powerful enough to get it limited by shots.
The GB were cool, but they were < normal day vigs. The problem is that you only get one chance to kill mafia while the other shot is almost guaranteed to hit town.
Gozer was kinda reasonable as a JOAT. I really don't like bus drives in the hands of town. It's one of the most dangerous roles in the hands of town to **** all actions (as it happened here. fortunately town actions were so bad that it didn't end up mattering. He also got abilities by votes which is another nerf albeit small.
The doctor was a cool design, but I think it was slightly worse or on parity with a normal doctor. He can't save the same person and there's a big chance he will die early (doctors usually protect valuable targets that will die quickly).
Scum had powerful to very powerful roles that only got better when scum died. Silver's role is resonable, although the extra shot is too much. Rodemy's role is not reasonable at all and is so freaking strong that the only thing keeping it back is the fact that the town roles are crap. And getting an extra shot of that ability shouldn't have even been in the discussion.
Tom being GB is reasonable, but instead of being treated like a potential dayvig, it was treated like a mafia goon which is even more baffling.
KA's role was downright bonkers. He could track the entire town in a few days and could direct the architect to whoever he wanted. The fact that he was immune to abilities is just way too much.
And then scum also had the strongarm kill on the Ghostbusters, which was totally unnecessary (town had 1 protective and a 1-shot roleblock + 1-shot bus drive) Scum shouldn't nerf the best town roles just by existing (this doesn't even take into account the situation where the roleblock could clear someone falsely or end up in a lynch on the doc).
I hate games without daytalk as scum, but it's about as powerful as a normal PR.
The no full role reveals would be reasonable FOR A NORMAL, which this was not. If your rolenames start being non-descriptive, you should reveal roles so people can make sense of what's happening. You don't have to reveal them if your roles are only classic roles that everybody knows. This was somewhat mitigated by DV, but even so it requires someone to be a live and waste abilities. I'd say no role reveals is about half a power role so this and the third town GB make up for the lack of daychat.
I thought KA was neutral just because of how absurdly good his role seemed.
I'd say the game is 60% to 65% in scum favour just bsaed on roles, but it's a very swingy setup and that number could be higher due to all the luck involved in the town's abilities.
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We should have lynched ka yesterday.
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I think the correct lynch today is etr and we can figure riku/tom tomorrow.
vote etr
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I'd rather lynch scum than neutral right now and don't really care if he wins any more.
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I'm not moving my vote and I don't really care. I just want this game to end.
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I first thought Rodemy made a single post with the blunder, but it was actually two separate posts. I thought Rodemy as town could have made those two posts (he does weird things) so I jumped off to see more from him. Rodemy is easily wagoned and I didn't really want to start an easy wagon, but I changed my mind after more from him.
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Can you show what interactions you are talking about? I only remember typical scum-scum interactions between the two, or at least nothing outside their range.
tom/silver or tom/etr worlds make the most sense to me, but tom isn't as scummiest as a ton of other people so I don't have that much faith there.
I don't know who I want to lynch today, because nobody is really discussing anything. Vaimes is still MIA.
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Can we lynch silver today?
Damn why is everyone so scummy.
vote silver
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vote Etr
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