I definitely think lack of flip info is far more helpful to scum than day chat. Town are dealing with a lack of info; the more info they have, the better. Scum already have info; day chat helps, but they already have some knowledge.
Put it this way: if you knew you were town, would you rather have full flips, or scum not having daychat?
I'd take scum not having day chat over flips at all.
I would strongly go the opposite. It's virtually impossible for town to win a no-flip game.
I agree role flips I'm not so sure on, but alignment flips absolutely.
If we just blanket across back and forth and remove the town power with scum power due to counters.
This game effectively becomes.
Town Doc, Tracker and Vig against 4 mafia with a strong man and maybe something else. Should be noted that our vig is one shot and our doc can't protect the same target, and the tracker in this game effectively had lets say 3 shots.
All of the matrix 12 setups give the town more power with an additional player and keep the mafia around the same power level of this game. I'm just saying we've seen a lot of MTGS mafia wins in recent years, it may be that we are giving the mafia too much power. Or the town too little.
Food for thought, but I think our overall math of how we have been calculating mafia may be off. Additionally with more and more pushes towards mafia day talk something we didn't use to do this gives the mafia even more power in their court.
I know they are not stronger than a vig who gets multiple shots. But, they also have other added benefits that the one doesn't. Its like a 50/50. They both have their bonuses they both have their draw backs.
I think their ability if it goes off is really good. I think they allow town the ability to reconsider analyze more and make their lynch worth more. That being said a good vig kill does the same thing coming from night phase into day phase. I guess these can't be ****ed with. IDK. I don't think its worth more than a vig kill the more I think about it.
That's the trade off, both allow for reflection on flips, but one can be ****ed with and the other can be legislated.
The half I truly don't know what to do with it. Its like a good scum can easily sort of force a kill with this in a townie way, and IDK its hard for me to figure it out. Its a hard call on that one.
Edit: I'm not trying to downplay one extra lynch. But I think that its equivalent to a vig shot. I think people are over hyping it as anything more than that.
I'd argue the reverse , you're the one trying to say "the individual mafia roles are too strong, look at this garbage tracker they're competing with" while I'm saying the town as a whole is roughly balanced against the wolves.
You're not though, you're arguing this is town sided it isn't. I'm trying to show you all of these massive statistics to prove to you how not town sided this is. Would you have thought that any of those games would have had that low of win rates? The mafia literally have goons in most of the setups. And the town have way more PR. In this game the mafia have pound for pound more power than the town. Lets just say its even, that's a heavily scum sided game.
If a mountainous game of 12-2 is only a 40% win for town then, the mafia having point for point equal abilities negating the town and having two additional scum, that makes it ******* scum sided.
You reallllly can't claim those and use them in a scum sided way, dude. And if you town side with them, then what's the point? Also, you're doing waaaay more handwaving than I am here.
Good scum play might involve this. Food for thought there.
Oh LOL I just realized the hero shots you and I are both wrong.
Your's was two Rod was three. I thought they were both two and I think you thought they were both three.
So the delayer can be in F5, which I knew I just thought that Rod could be in F5 as well. I got to think on that.
I don't generally evaluate roles strictly by point value, either, my point is that even if you use his scale you have to contort the point values to unreasonable extents to make the game significantly scum sided.
Yes, I agree with this. I don't think the game is significantly scum sided.
I think you've forgotten, and thus won me the argument.
This game isn't TOWN SIDED. Its scum sided I was unsure by how much. I think its fair to say 60-40 that isn't that insane.
I think its widely unreasonable to give the mafia GB goon status of + 0 and the town all three of the GB roles as power. Its either two for town or the mafia pick up that point of power in their own accommodation.
The JoaT is pure garbage for what it does.
RB is good.
Role flips whoopty doo.
Bus driver is so ******* hit and miss, I can **** the town over as much as I **** the scum over with that.
I think fundamentally part of the problem is you're bad at playing mafia. And I mean the alignment.
Scum just have way more power in this game. They can sit back and watch and react to town and they really are kings of the castle in this game for being able to always succeed in the kill they want with very little claims from the town. I'm looking at this from the prospective of a holistic approach you seem to be looking very much at each tree.
This town is garbage. I'm baffled that you think otherwise.
Also, you can definitely claim the Rodemy and Delayer roles. Once again bad at playing mafia here. Its really holding you back. You are making hand waving arguments and you don't understand.
You mentioned in scum chat that I didn't want to claim the two shot of revealing roles, and you thought that was the most town ability I had. I saw it as a SK claim, I was aware of the problems it presented in claiming that.
I just think you're bad at mafia and that's why you don't understand.
The tracker is sort of real power but it can turn itself off night one. Its so ******* swingy. Its a bad role.
The GB is power, but its hard to figure out what to rate them, they work as a collective and sort of in an interesting way. You want to rate all three of the towns higher, but you're ignoring the mafia one and not giving the mafia any power for that. Ehhh seems like a noob decision to me.
Yes, if Ivo Shandor targets exactly the JoAT on N1 and wolves spend all of their other resources to hose them specifically, the JoAT gets hosed, but it's not like the delay actually messes with the gravedigger shots anyway, and it uses basically all of the wolves' resources. The delay barely affects the doctorguard unless wolves target the same player he tries to because they still get cocooned.
Ehh
**** me man.
You realize there are hero shots in this game right? I've continually brought it up. Your whole arguments seem disingenuous to me. Its like you are avoiding talking about some things and really only trying to fight like one battle. Its just such bad logic. Its not all of their power, the town has like no power. The scum have limited power, but its ******* defined and they know what they have. They also get hero shots and you're ignoring that in your analysis.
Vanilla cop isn't bad, it isn't good, and its just a potential?
I'm not downplaying, the doc is a doc. Its not worth much more than that, and its not worth less. Vig is vig shot I'm not sure how to rate it, I don't think its that much stronger than a normal vig in the game, but I'm not sure its weaker either.
Joat is pretty bad and the tracker is so swingy its hard to figure out.
Town's power CAN be insane, but more likely than not its not going to be. The tracker disables itself. The Joat can **** the town over almost as much as it can **** the mafia over. Its like you've never played mafia before. You've never seen a RB, block the town doc.
But, yes, your point about "what if the game was mountainous" is well taken. See, the wolf abilities don't actually do anything except block town abilities. That means even if the wolves perfectly blocked every single town action and the Tracker disabled himself on N1, it would just be a 16/4 mountainous game with at least one extra lynch the mafia cannot vote for due to the Ghostbuster kill.
Come on you've played mafia, you should know normal setups. Normal setups are like 3 goons 9 VT and a jailer and a doc. That's like slightly town favored but not much. I just feel like I'm arguing with someone that hasn't played mafia.
Your logic is lack of safe claims, even though all of the roles are safe claimable. Ways of catching wolves is off, because of this also that vanilla cop might never turn on and likely won't in most games. Tracker is like Ehh sometimes they hit sometimes they don't(Also the tracker can track the doc to the GB and the mafia can force the kill on that player). Town doesn't have any info. The vanilla cop may turn on but likely it won't. The JoAT likely is going to **** with the doctor as much as with the town.
I just feel like you've never played mafia. That's what this feels like. Its bizarro land to me. The night kill is not really disrupted though that's the problem. 3 out of 12 of the town have a guaranteed kill on them 25%, the mafia also can safe guard from the RB by just using kami. The busdriver is going to be just as likely to **** with the doc as with the mafia. The doc is powerful, but its also going to die.
Your whole analysis just really lacks for the power of the wolves and I think that's because you don't know how to play wolves.
Also I'm deeply skeptical of that grids scoring. A pair of Masons (with our standard confirmed town definition) are not half a point weaker than a watcher and a full point weaker than a cop. It's a useful heuristic but I don't agree with all it's judgments.
Its .5 per. So that's a 1 for the mason group. If they know its town its double at 2.
Most people value vigs at the same power level as a tracker when doing setup math. Some slightly higher some lower. I'd be willing to go up on it, but not as much as a cop. I don't think vig is nearly as strong as a jailer or a watcher. Vigs are stronger than docs for sure though. Day kill is ehhh? I'm not sure its stronger than a vig, town I guess can reevaluate after doing the deed though before another lynch. Its strong, but I'm not sure its watcher level strong. Even if I give it .5 more of even double the value, town still is vastly outclass by mafia in terms of power this game.
Its more than semantic difference though.
The redirect in the game is a bus driver. Its a static effect that effects anyone who targets that player.
So if I target player A and B(Player A is a GB), and mafia go for the kill it would ignore the bus drive. While lets say the tracker targets player A they would still go to player B.
Yeah yeah, but scum sided to me means if you run the game 100 times the scum win 60 the town win 40. Its a probability game. The scum have counters to literally everything the town can do, and in ways that feels almost unfair. If this game was to be run a lot, the mafia would always be able to save their abilities for the town PR claims that inevitably happen in mafia and then pick the town off at their leisure. The moment the doc claims the mafia can guarantee for at least two nights with the delayer that person doesn't do anything. And they can target another player as well.
I just don't value town kills nearly as much as other people do I guess. Vigs in good hands can be brutal, in bad hands they can be equally brutal. Extra kills like this are basically extra lynches, they pretty decent. But, that's really the only power the town had. And that's the issue. It isn't that the town didn't have power, its that the town had limited power.
You're seeming to ignore how much of an advantage on paper the mafia have over town. The mafia can **** with all of the power roles in a single night. Hell, they get the super witch on me it isn't even hard for them to do so. RB one, delay the other two, and **** me over as well wasting my one shot.
It just feels like you are not taking into account the litany of scum powers that exist in the game. All four of the mafia have power. The town has like 5 members that really have power and then the gatekeeper/keymaster roles. But that's not even true.
The town have the GB's lets give them .5 each That's what they are worth.
A doctor thing(True power role)
Then they have a tracker that loses their tracking.
A JoaT that has one ability that is sort of meh(The role flips) and two abilities.
And then the keymasters, which may or may not ever find each other and then their ability is OK afterwords.
At best the town have 6.5 power roles. In practice its something more like 4.
Let's take a look at the mafia.
Mafia goon that can also have access to a day kill(I'm going to count this as a one because goons already are counted as a one by most math and this does more a lot more).
Mafia two shot delayer that can target two players
Mafia one shot ROLE COP and WITCH
Mafia PERMANENT(albeit loud) tracker plus can't be targeted.
And the mafia have access to a strong man on three players.
You see the problem here? What exactly does the town do? How do you see this as being town sided? The town just sort of suck.
If this was a mountainous game 4 v 12 is balanced. And that's the issue. The mafia have pound per player more fire power than the town does. By A LOT.
The sort of math I'm used to working with.
Vanilla mafia 3
Vanilla town 1
Add points per power.
12 town power
12 mafia power
Normal town power roles are something like(copied from Kiradawea guide)
Cop: 2
Doctor: 1 (0.5 for mafia)
Roleblocker: 1 (1.5 for mafia)
Jailer: 1.5
Watcher: 1.5
Tracker: 1
Motion detector: 0.5
Vigilante: 1
Mason: 0.5 (for a two mason group, add 0.5 for each additional mason, double if masons confirm one another as town)
Mayor: 0.5
Town gain lets say 5, maybe. Doc counted at one, tracker shouldn't be counted at one because it isn't pure, JoaT is a one I guess? Its around 5.
Takes town to 17.
Mafia gain 4 for base power and the extra strongman takes them to 5.
Takes mafia to 17.
HOWEVER, mafia gain power for each roleblock and they can target two players with it. PLUS they have the can't be targeted.
That's going to take the mafia well above 17.
Its not town sided its scum sided.
The math says this is scum sided at the outset. Compound that with weaker town roles, and stronger mafia roles and this game is scum sided.
I do agree the kill through protection on a GB can lead to bastard situations like you described. Though I imagine they wouldn't have been handled in a bastard fashion as a RB or redirection I hope would have been told their ability failed. If not then it would be bastard.
The redirect wouldn't have failed really. It just would have been bypassed.
Yeah IDK, its that the mafia have so much disruption and then on top of it the free gimmes in the can't be targeted and the strong man.
Do people in general like the can't be targeted on scum?
To me as I've said it just punishes town for using their limited knowledge correctly.
I think to me if the the bodygaurds fell of after 2 nights, IE day four the first protection ended day four and then the role could revisit doctering that player then the role would be unquestionable stronger.
As it currently sits its like a side upgrade to me. Yeah you gain some power, but you also lose some power. Its a good role, I like the role I'm just not sure that as it stands its that much better(Or even at all) than a normal doc. Its definitely not weaker as I thought when I first looked at it.
Edit: The again maybe I'm discounting making scum kill you instead of a high town read. Or just making scum kill you. I don't think duelers are bad and I don't think bodyguards are bad. I just feel like doctors are stronger a lot so, and this is like 3/4 body and 1/4 doc. Or maybe 2/3 1/3. Something like that. More guard than doc.
You know if I think about it that way its a really strong guard role. I guess when I look at it I want to analyze it as a doc first and a guard second. But really its the opposite. Its a guard first and a doc second. That points to it being scum sided, because guards are worth way less on the point meter than docs, but like yeah great guard role if you want to think about it that way.
I'm just going to argue that I think the Ghostbusters are incredibly strong. And I think the doctor guard is stronger than a normal doctor.
I don't.
I think its a strong role.
I did a long write up on in discord.
Lets do a pro con.
Doctor can target and prevent a kill. This role can do the same. However, this role can't protect the same target twice from being killed, it does so in a different way, but not in a way that messes with lylo math. That's pretty key.
This role sort of is a cool role, it protects, it moves on it protects. It docs, then bodyguards. However, it this role is guaranteed to die. It doesn't get to the insane situations which is end game doc. It just can't be design get there and it can't have the same impact.
Instead of it being a guessing game for who the doctor will protect the scum just know that they can't protect some targets because they are body guarded.
Theoretically, this role can get to a point where it just can't take an action to protect somebody.
Its definitely stronger in some ways, but I don't think you guys realize how insanely good doctors are. That being said, I don't think its strictly worse as I originally implied. I think its about even. Its got its strengths its got its weaknesses. The biggest thing holding it back is that there are just no roles worth protecting. It is the role for the town, and it can't protect the GB.
Oh god that's another bastard thing, that role claims and then mafia strong man the kill and people go I thought you said you body guarded it. Instantly lynched.
If there were roles protecting I think its a slightly stronger doc, buy about 20%, but still not that much stronger.
Yeah I did, DV, the Ghostbusters shouldn't have claimed until they were ready to use their role.
You have a real problem with finding charitable interpretations of people's arguments, I've noticed. You always attack the silliest or worst version of them to make your argument seem stronger. Obviously I don't think they should not use their role, I literally said their role was very strong because it gave twon an extra day kill.
Yeah I did, DV, the Ghostbusters shouldn't have claimed until they were ready to use their role.
You have a real problem with finding charitable interpretations of people's arguments, I've noticed. You always attack the silliest or worst version of them to make your argument seem stronger. Obviously I don't think they should not use their role, I literally said their role was very strong because it gave twon an extra day kill.
Oh my god.
Come on man.
That's what you are arguing. Why bring this argument up then? Your claim that maybe claiming shouldn't be as free is a valid statement. On its face its a good statement, but its factious. I'm not strawmaning you here.
When the GB use their ability its basically a claim. Since the mafia have knowledge of the GB since N0 its definitely a claim. Just using their ability is a claim. What you say SOUNDS good. But, in this game with these abilities with the knowledge the mafia have it isn't a just a "Claim" its using the role as intended.
Its a stupid argument and I know you know its a stupid argument in that light. Don't ******* insult me by pushing this as legitimate.
DV, you shot your mouth off first and, truth to tell, I don't feel any need to justify myself to you, especially given you're accusing me of strawmanning you right after you strawmanned me. Look, I know you didn't mean it was "free kill" but I had an issue with your characterization of it as one. I knew what you meant, but calling it a "free kill" makes it look much stronger than it is. It's not a "free kill" it's a "strong kill" and Kami isn't a Ninja, he's an ascetic against basically just the tracker and the JoAT.
I'm talking about the context of the game which I'm saying its basically a ninja. But yeah its not AS bastard as a ninja. Granted, that's a true argument and factually correct.
The balance of any game, especially a complex one like this, isn't an objective fact. You can't measure a game's balance in an objective way such that it's plainly obvious who is right. Balance and game design are inherently subjective.
No, in fact you can. That's stupid. All games have a best design, and a best way to be played. There is always an optimal way to correctly play a game. Yeah there are a lot of variables, but in the straight mechanics of night actions, there are a lot of probables.
What makes this game scum sided is that the scum have all of the probables, while the town have none.
Strong man kill on the GB, ascetic ability.
Tracker which is permanent and they know where the night kill goes.
Night scum is king, in most games as it should be. They for one have knowledge of their teams actions and have information from the thread to help them work out even more. Town only have information from the thread and don't have hindsight knowledge on who may be lying. Scum is always king that's fine.
The problem is that if I was to busdriver Grape, night one to anyone I would assume I swapped the kill. I wouldn't have, I would have failed to stop it since nothing can prevent it. That's bastard. If I was to RB, I would have assumed I didn't stop the kill, that's bastard. Maybe this brings into question strong mans in general. IDK.
I think the problem with your arguments is that you are arguing this is town sided. Its not. Its scum sided. I'm not sure if its a major scum sided, because I don't think the town does much, and most of the mafia's abilities is just disruption for the town. So, its like ehhh? I just have a huge problem with the ascetic I just hate that role. I refuse to accept that its fair. Its just punishing to town for correctly using abilities. Same with the free strongman kill.
Scum having options are fine, and in a vacuum neither of these seem really bad. But on the whole the scum have so much. And its all additional. Hero shots, two roles that can disrupt(One of which can target two players at the same time, the other is information), a tracker that is permanent(And balanced by being loud) but additionally its ascetic, and a GB that gives them n0 information and some control over a day kill. Additionally, they get to have a strong man kill.
Why, I'm attacking you is for a simple reason at this point. You're being disingenuous. You need to either write, why you think this game is town sided or say "DV you're right this game isn't town sided." Because what we are arguing about is if this game is scum sided or not and by how much. The only true power the town have is a day kill, I'm not sure that is much stronger than having a vig kill at night that is strongman. And maybe the doctor. Ehhh?
The doctor I think is about the same power level as a normal doctor. It protects a target, but can't ever re target that same player it also body guards, but that ensures it dies. Also, if I correctly Bus driver, a kill to a mafia, but the doctor protects that role, then I kill the doctor.
Town have an OK tracker. You talk about CCing, but the role as claimed seemed neutral because of how god damn strong it is. I think maybe, but maybe not. Hindsight is 20/20. If I was him I wouldn't have CC'ed. I can understand game states that it could exist, also that town tracker sort of sucks so maybe they are thinking that its possible for two to exist. Just a lot going on there and its setup gaming.
There is the whole GB WIFOM argument. But I'm not really willing to entertain that argument. The argument that one has to be scum, is probabally correct. But also, not. I've seen mods say **** your set up gaming before on this site, and so I'm not willing to stick my neck out for that. Like, I've seen roles where it almost has to be one thing, and then the response from the mod is "I knew you were going to set up game me so I made it to punish you for doing so". So, Ehhh? Damned if we do damned if we don't?
So Cantrip I think you have the wrong wording. Your wording is a strong man wording and it goes through all of this.
"Target GB's life can't be protected"? Maybe.
Trying to think of the best way to word this.
I agree role flips I'm not so sure on, but alignment flips absolutely.
Which is this
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/wiki/Matrix_12
Which has 13 town 4 scum.
If we just blanket across back and forth and remove the town power with scum power due to counters.
This game effectively becomes.
Town Doc, Tracker and Vig against 4 mafia with a strong man and maybe something else. Should be noted that our vig is one shot and our doc can't protect the same target, and the tracker in this game effectively had lets say 3 shots.
All of the matrix 12 setups give the town more power with an additional player and keep the mafia around the same power level of this game. I'm just saying we've seen a lot of MTGS mafia wins in recent years, it may be that we are giving the mafia too much power. Or the town too little.
Food for thought, but I think our overall math of how we have been calculating mafia may be off. Additionally with more and more pushes towards mafia day talk something we didn't use to do this gives the mafia even more power in their court.
I know they are not stronger than a vig who gets multiple shots. But, they also have other added benefits that the one doesn't. Its like a 50/50. They both have their bonuses they both have their draw backs.
I think their ability if it goes off is really good. I think they allow town the ability to reconsider analyze more and make their lynch worth more. That being said a good vig kill does the same thing coming from night phase into day phase. I guess these can't be ****ed with. IDK. I don't think its worth more than a vig kill the more I think about it.
That's the trade off, both allow for reflection on flips, but one can be ****ed with and the other can be legislated.
The half I truly don't know what to do with it. Its like a good scum can easily sort of force a kill with this in a townie way, and IDK its hard for me to figure it out. Its a hard call on that one.
Edit: I'm not trying to downplay one extra lynch. But I think that its equivalent to a vig shot. I think people are over hyping it as anything more than that.
You're not though, you're arguing this is town sided it isn't. I'm trying to show you all of these massive statistics to prove to you how not town sided this is. Would you have thought that any of those games would have had that low of win rates? The mafia literally have goons in most of the setups. And the town have way more PR. In this game the mafia have pound for pound more power than the town. Lets just say its even, that's a heavily scum sided game.
If a mountainous game of 12-2 is only a 40% win for town then, the mafia having point for point equal abilities negating the town and having two additional scum, that makes it ******* scum sided.
Good scum play might involve this. Food for thought there.
Oh LOL I just realized the hero shots you and I are both wrong.
Your's was two Rod was three. I thought they were both two and I think you thought they were both three.
So the delayer can be in F5, which I knew I just thought that Rod could be in F5 as well. I got to think on that.
Yes, I agree with this. I don't think the game is significantly scum sided.
I think you've forgotten, and thus won me the argument.
This game isn't TOWN SIDED. Its scum sided I was unsure by how much. I think its fair to say 60-40 that isn't that insane.
Yeah so one more mafia is highly suspect.
I pulled a fast one on silver by mistake.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mountainous
2 mafia 11 town, considered mafia sided even there.
So 4 mafia 12 town definitely mafia sided.
Here are some more mafia scum stats on C9 another similar vein of this argument.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2234627#p2234627
M6 statistics here.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=39739
The JoaT is pure garbage for what it does.
RB is good.
Role flips whoopty doo.
Bus driver is so ******* hit and miss, I can **** the town over as much as I **** the scum over with that.
I think fundamentally part of the problem is you're bad at playing mafia. And I mean the alignment.
Scum just have way more power in this game. They can sit back and watch and react to town and they really are kings of the castle in this game for being able to always succeed in the kill they want with very little claims from the town. I'm looking at this from the prospective of a holistic approach you seem to be looking very much at each tree.
This town is garbage. I'm baffled that you think otherwise.
Also, you can definitely claim the Rodemy and Delayer roles. Once again bad at playing mafia here. Its really holding you back. You are making hand waving arguments and you don't understand.
You mentioned in scum chat that I didn't want to claim the two shot of revealing roles, and you thought that was the most town ability I had. I saw it as a SK claim, I was aware of the problems it presented in claiming that.
I just think you're bad at mafia and that's why you don't understand.
The tracker is sort of real power but it can turn itself off night one. Its so ******* swingy. Its a bad role.
The GB is power, but its hard to figure out what to rate them, they work as a collective and sort of in an interesting way. You want to rate all three of the towns higher, but you're ignoring the mafia one and not giving the mafia any power for that. Ehhh seems like a noob decision to me.
Ehh
**** me man.
You realize there are hero shots in this game right? I've continually brought it up. Your whole arguments seem disingenuous to me. Its like you are avoiding talking about some things and really only trying to fight like one battle. Its just such bad logic. Its not all of their power, the town has like no power. The scum have limited power, but its ******* defined and they know what they have. They also get hero shots and you're ignoring that in your analysis.
Vanilla cop isn't bad, it isn't good, and its just a potential?
I'm not downplaying, the doc is a doc. Its not worth much more than that, and its not worth less. Vig is vig shot I'm not sure how to rate it, I don't think its that much stronger than a normal vig in the game, but I'm not sure its weaker either.
Joat is pretty bad and the tracker is so swingy its hard to figure out.
Town's power CAN be insane, but more likely than not its not going to be. The tracker disables itself. The Joat can **** the town over almost as much as it can **** the mafia over. Its like you've never played mafia before. You've never seen a RB, block the town doc.
Come on you've played mafia, you should know normal setups. Normal setups are like 3 goons 9 VT and a jailer and a doc. That's like slightly town favored but not much. I just feel like I'm arguing with someone that hasn't played mafia.
Your logic is lack of safe claims, even though all of the roles are safe claimable. Ways of catching wolves is off, because of this also that vanilla cop might never turn on and likely won't in most games. Tracker is like Ehh sometimes they hit sometimes they don't(Also the tracker can track the doc to the GB and the mafia can force the kill on that player). Town doesn't have any info. The vanilla cop may turn on but likely it won't. The JoAT likely is going to **** with the doctor as much as with the town.
I just feel like you've never played mafia. That's what this feels like. Its bizarro land to me. The night kill is not really disrupted though that's the problem. 3 out of 12 of the town have a guaranteed kill on them 25%, the mafia also can safe guard from the RB by just using kami. The busdriver is going to be just as likely to **** with the doc as with the mafia. The doc is powerful, but its also going to die.
Your whole analysis just really lacks for the power of the wolves and I think that's because you don't know how to play wolves.
Its .5 per. So that's a 1 for the mason group. If they know its town its double at 2.
So same power level as a cop.
Its more than semantic difference though.
The redirect in the game is a bus driver. Its a static effect that effects anyone who targets that player.
So if I target player A and B(Player A is a GB), and mafia go for the kill it would ignore the bus drive. While lets say the tracker targets player A they would still go to player B.
That's the problem.
It hasn't failed. Its just failed for one person.
I just don't value town kills nearly as much as other people do I guess. Vigs in good hands can be brutal, in bad hands they can be equally brutal. Extra kills like this are basically extra lynches, they pretty decent. But, that's really the only power the town had. And that's the issue. It isn't that the town didn't have power, its that the town had limited power.
You're seeming to ignore how much of an advantage on paper the mafia have over town. The mafia can **** with all of the power roles in a single night. Hell, they get the super witch on me it isn't even hard for them to do so. RB one, delay the other two, and **** me over as well wasting my one shot.
It just feels like you are not taking into account the litany of scum powers that exist in the game. All four of the mafia have power. The town has like 5 members that really have power and then the gatekeeper/keymaster roles. But that's not even true.
The town have the GB's lets give them .5 each That's what they are worth.
A doctor thing(True power role)
Then they have a tracker that loses their tracking.
A JoaT that has one ability that is sort of meh(The role flips) and two abilities.
And then the keymasters, which may or may not ever find each other and then their ability is OK afterwords.
At best the town have 6.5 power roles. In practice its something more like 4.
Let's take a look at the mafia.
Mafia goon that can also have access to a day kill(I'm going to count this as a one because goons already are counted as a one by most math and this does more a lot more).
Mafia two shot delayer that can target two players
Mafia one shot ROLE COP and WITCH
Mafia PERMANENT(albeit loud) tracker plus can't be targeted.
And the mafia have access to a strong man on three players.
You see the problem here? What exactly does the town do? How do you see this as being town sided? The town just sort of suck.
If this was a mountainous game 4 v 12 is balanced. And that's the issue. The mafia have pound per player more fire power than the town does. By A LOT.
The sort of math I'm used to working with.
Vanilla mafia 3
Vanilla town 1
Add points per power.
12 town power
12 mafia power
Normal town power roles are something like(copied from Kiradawea guide)
Cop: 2
Doctor: 1 (0.5 for mafia)
Roleblocker: 1 (1.5 for mafia)
Jailer: 1.5
Watcher: 1.5
Tracker: 1
Motion detector: 0.5
Vigilante: 1
Mason: 0.5 (for a two mason group, add 0.5 for each additional mason, double if masons confirm one another as town)
Mayor: 0.5
Town gain lets say 5, maybe. Doc counted at one, tracker shouldn't be counted at one because it isn't pure, JoaT is a one I guess? Its around 5.
Takes town to 17.
Mafia gain 4 for base power and the extra strongman takes them to 5.
Takes mafia to 17.
HOWEVER, mafia gain power for each roleblock and they can target two players with it. PLUS they have the can't be targeted.
That's going to take the mafia well above 17.
Its not town sided its scum sided.
The math says this is scum sided at the outset. Compound that with weaker town roles, and stronger mafia roles and this game is scum sided.
The redirect wouldn't have failed really. It just would have been bypassed.
Yeah IDK, its that the mafia have so much disruption and then on top of it the free gimmes in the can't be targeted and the strong man.
Do people in general like the can't be targeted on scum?
To me as I've said it just punishes town for using their limited knowledge correctly.
As it currently sits its like a side upgrade to me. Yeah you gain some power, but you also lose some power. Its a good role, I like the role I'm just not sure that as it stands its that much better(Or even at all) than a normal doc. Its definitely not weaker as I thought when I first looked at it.
Edit: The again maybe I'm discounting making scum kill you instead of a high town read. Or just making scum kill you. I don't think duelers are bad and I don't think bodyguards are bad. I just feel like doctors are stronger a lot so, and this is like 3/4 body and 1/4 doc. Or maybe 2/3 1/3. Something like that. More guard than doc.
You know if I think about it that way its a really strong guard role. I guess when I look at it I want to analyze it as a doc first and a guard second. But really its the opposite. Its a guard first and a doc second. That points to it being scum sided, because guards are worth way less on the point meter than docs, but like yeah great guard role if you want to think about it that way.
I don't.
I think its a strong role.
I did a long write up on in discord.
Lets do a pro con.
Doctor can target and prevent a kill. This role can do the same. However, this role can't protect the same target twice from being killed, it does so in a different way, but not in a way that messes with lylo math. That's pretty key.
This role sort of is a cool role, it protects, it moves on it protects. It docs, then bodyguards. However, it this role is guaranteed to die. It doesn't get to the insane situations which is end game doc. It just can't be design get there and it can't have the same impact.
Instead of it being a guessing game for who the doctor will protect the scum just know that they can't protect some targets because they are body guarded.
Theoretically, this role can get to a point where it just can't take an action to protect somebody.
Its definitely stronger in some ways, but I don't think you guys realize how insanely good doctors are. That being said, I don't think its strictly worse as I originally implied. I think its about even. Its got its strengths its got its weaknesses. The biggest thing holding it back is that there are just no roles worth protecting. It is the role for the town, and it can't protect the GB.
Oh god that's another bastard thing, that role claims and then mafia strong man the kill and people go I thought you said you body guarded it. Instantly lynched.
If there were roles protecting I think its a slightly stronger doc, buy about 20%, but still not that much stronger.
Oh my god.
Come on man.
That's what you are arguing. Why bring this argument up then? Your claim that maybe claiming shouldn't be as free is a valid statement. On its face its a good statement, but its factious. I'm not strawmaning you here.
When the GB use their ability its basically a claim. Since the mafia have knowledge of the GB since N0 its definitely a claim. Just using their ability is a claim. What you say SOUNDS good. But, in this game with these abilities with the knowledge the mafia have it isn't a just a "Claim" its using the role as intended.
Its a stupid argument and I know you know its a stupid argument in that light. Don't ******* insult me by pushing this as legitimate.
I'm talking about the context of the game which I'm saying its basically a ninja. But yeah its not AS bastard as a ninja. Granted, that's a true argument and factually correct.
No, in fact you can. That's stupid. All games have a best design, and a best way to be played. There is always an optimal way to correctly play a game. Yeah there are a lot of variables, but in the straight mechanics of night actions, there are a lot of probables.
What makes this game scum sided is that the scum have all of the probables, while the town have none.
Strong man kill on the GB, ascetic ability.
Tracker which is permanent and they know where the night kill goes.
Night scum is king, in most games as it should be. They for one have knowledge of their teams actions and have information from the thread to help them work out even more. Town only have information from the thread and don't have hindsight knowledge on who may be lying. Scum is always king that's fine.
The problem is that if I was to busdriver Grape, night one to anyone I would assume I swapped the kill. I wouldn't have, I would have failed to stop it since nothing can prevent it. That's bastard. If I was to RB, I would have assumed I didn't stop the kill, that's bastard. Maybe this brings into question strong mans in general. IDK.
I think the problem with your arguments is that you are arguing this is town sided. Its not. Its scum sided. I'm not sure if its a major scum sided, because I don't think the town does much, and most of the mafia's abilities is just disruption for the town. So, its like ehhh? I just have a huge problem with the ascetic I just hate that role. I refuse to accept that its fair. Its just punishing to town for correctly using abilities. Same with the free strongman kill.
Scum having options are fine, and in a vacuum neither of these seem really bad. But on the whole the scum have so much. And its all additional. Hero shots, two roles that can disrupt(One of which can target two players at the same time, the other is information), a tracker that is permanent(And balanced by being loud) but additionally its ascetic, and a GB that gives them n0 information and some control over a day kill. Additionally, they get to have a strong man kill.
Why, I'm attacking you is for a simple reason at this point. You're being disingenuous. You need to either write, why you think this game is town sided or say "DV you're right this game isn't town sided." Because what we are arguing about is if this game is scum sided or not and by how much. The only true power the town have is a day kill, I'm not sure that is much stronger than having a vig kill at night that is strongman. And maybe the doctor. Ehhh?
The doctor I think is about the same power level as a normal doctor. It protects a target, but can't ever re target that same player it also body guards, but that ensures it dies. Also, if I correctly Bus driver, a kill to a mafia, but the doctor protects that role, then I kill the doctor.
Town have an OK tracker. You talk about CCing, but the role as claimed seemed neutral because of how god damn strong it is. I think maybe, but maybe not. Hindsight is 20/20. If I was him I wouldn't have CC'ed. I can understand game states that it could exist, also that town tracker sort of sucks so maybe they are thinking that its possible for two to exist. Just a lot going on there and its setup gaming.
There is the whole GB WIFOM argument. But I'm not really willing to entertain that argument. The argument that one has to be scum, is probabally correct. But also, not. I've seen mods say **** your set up gaming before on this site, and so I'm not willing to stick my neck out for that. Like, I've seen roles where it almost has to be one thing, and then the response from the mod is "I knew you were going to set up game me so I made it to punish you for doing so". So, Ehhh? Damned if we do damned if we don't?