Its really weird of you to try to argue that this goes without stating, when in your previous post you said it isn't even good in specialized decks.
I do think that most times it's unnecessary in Gitrog Monster as the engine of card draw will most times get you into land drops and I also think that it's not good in landfall without other cards to fuel it like Exploration, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, etc.
So even in the decks that it's more specialized for, I still think that it's only an average card for the builds. Not a very weird statement at all.
Well, yeah, its still pretty weird, considering that you've now changed your assessment twice. You've argued in two separate posts that A) crucible isn't good in specialized decks that can benefit from it's effect and B) it goes without stating that crucible is good in specialized decks that can uilize it's effect, so it's irrelevant to talk about it, complete with a mocking emoji to drive that point home. So yes, it is pretty weird to make both of those arguments, because those arguments are contradictory and mutually exclusive. You either think that the card isn't good in those decks, which opens discussion as to whether that is indeed the case, or you think that it's so obvious that the card is good in those decks that its silly to point it out. You can't make both claims without it looking like you are changing your argument to suit whatever point your trying to make at the time.
It's also kind of weird that you've made the point that you should already be hitting land drops with Gitrog when I already made the counterpoint that playing lands from the graveyard when you have lands in hand is usually superior because you A) get to reuse the best land for the job, including sac lands that let you draw more cards, and B) not playing the cards in your hand let's you get over 7 cards, making you discard down to 7, which triggers Gitrog drawing you more cards. Repeating your first argument doesn't change this, so yeah, that's a bit weird.
It really looks like a situation where you've over reacted in your assessment of the card. You are correct that it's outright bad in most decks, and i, and most people in the thread, agree. It's open to debate whether it's good, bad, or just ok in specialized decks that can maximize it's value. It looks like you want to take the strongest possible position (the card sucks), and are adverse to a more nuanced assessment (the card generally sucks, but has valid uses where it can be pretty good). The idea that the crucible is an overrated trap card that is overplayed and the idea that crucible can be a powerful and effective support card in certain decks are not mutually exclusive.
We will just have to agree to disagree on what weird means. Getting defensive over a card discussion is what I would consider weird lol. I'm just giving my personal opinions and so are you, and that's fine.
I never changed my mind, you'll just have to read the posts properly.
Its really weird of you to try to argue that this goes without stating, when in your previous post you said it isn't even good in specialized decks.
I do think that most times it's unnecessary in Gitrog Monster as the engine of card draw will most times get you into land drops and I also think that it's not good in landfall without other cards to fuel it like Exploration, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, etc.
So even in the decks that it's more specialized for, I still think that it's only an average card for the builds. Not a very weird statement at all.
Lots of good cards get hosed by graveyard hate, so that's not a convincing argument at all. The real question is whether what you are getting from the card is valuable enough that your are willing to risk it being dead to gy hate. For crucible, in a generic deck, the answer is no, but with a ton of synergy the answer is yes.
The decks that want it have lands that can be repeatedly sacrificed for value, specifically lands that you would want to repeatedly reuse over just playing another land from your hand, and get you additional value from playing or sacrificing land. The arguments you make are invalid when applied to the decks that want crucible. In Gitrog, you get an extra land drop a turn, and your lands dying draw you cards. You are incentivized to continually replay whatever your most valuable sac land is over and over again. Yes, that can often involve a strip mine that let's you clear out any cradles and coffers, and even color screw people, or it might mean resetting glacial chasm every couple turns. In lands.dek, your often have several cards that increase your number of land drops, and yeah you get a ton of value from strip mining three lands in a turn with Titania or Omnath out. It helps boost that decks grindy plan B if the combo win doesn't work out, not to mention it helps protect the combo win.
Those are the types of decks that really benefit from it. I've seen it work well enough in stax or as a way for someone to break synergy on geddon, but I've never done it and it's likely that if I looked at their decks I'd be able to figure out a better card that could replace crucible, but as I havent seen their full lists I can't say.
I'm pointing out that many people assume a particular thing from Crucible, and that they can put it in almost any deck, and that it instantly means that they get a land drop every turn for the rest of the game, this was highlighted by the below user...
While I agree Crucible of Worlds is a bit overrated by the larger MtG community, it’s been a bit unfairly maligned in this thread. It does have good uses. I run it in my monored deck, where there are four fetchlands and tons of mountains all those fetches can hit. In a deck like this, Crucible is essentially “3: never miss a land drop,” which I absolutely consider worthwhile. Monoblue would benefit similarly (coincidentally, the other best color for artifacts). The upside of reusing a Strip Mine is pure gravy.
So it's important to make it clear to players, that this is not true all the time. This is not an argument, it's a fact.
The thing is all I'm basically seeing is some very specific decks, Gitrog Monster, landfall (Titania or Omnath) and mass land destruction. At this point it's just a combo card, much like Food Chain is for certain decks.
So sort of pointing out that Food Chain is good for Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, is really the same thing as pointing out that Crucible is good for Gitrog, not necessary
So the thing is that this thread was about a formula for playing Crucible in decks, and this alluded to it being a sort of catch all card for any deck, "as long as you play a certain number of targets".
These conclusions have all come from actually playing the cards in a variety of decks, and ended up being cut due to ir underperfoming, for the reasons I've pointed out. Listen that's not to say that in synergy with cards it can't be good, Exploration, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, but we really are talking combo at this stage.
A lot of casual players are simply slotting it into their deck, thinking that they are going to get immediate value from the card because they are playing X number of fetches, and this is not what really happens.
Crucible is good in decks that will see lots of lands hit the graveyard. You basically need to be getting value out of it immediately when you cast it and every turn from then on. So yeah, Gitrog, lands.dek, etc. Just fetches and mine/wasteland isn't enough. Getting some value going with Dustbowl+Bog to get remove a land and a graveyard each turn, or Dustbowl + Flagstones of Torkair, or something like Gitrog or Titania or Omnath 2.0 that wants recurrent landfall/land death lets it perform well enough in a grindy way. If you have access to Life from the Loam, its usually better, because it helps with everything Crucible does and more, while fueling your graveyard.
Because of all this, Crucible can go anywhere from being worth it with just 1 card (Gitrog, as your commander) to 20 not being good enough (a slew of fetches, some strip mine effects, myriad landscape, and like harrow and crop rotation).
The thing people don't calculate is that it is vulnerable to graveyard hate. Somebody in the thread was mentioning that it represents a land drop every turn, and this is not correct. First you need to have the renewable land type (fetches). Then it has to survive all the graveyard hate during a game. This is the where I find it can stall for use during a game.
If you're using it with Strip Mine, Dust Bowl, Wasteland, this essentially doesn't even include being a land drop as you are using it for land destruction. You're not gaining traction on the opponents you're not destroying lands. Great in duels, not so great in multiplayer.
Then the thing that makes it least useful is when you just have natural lands to play from your hand. I mean you really have to have a deck that is very poor at drawing cards, because most games you have lands to play from your hand. Even a Gitrog deck tends to get a draw engine going where it's not often you don't have the lands to play from your hand.
So even in specialized decks, like landfall, it's an overrated card for the reasons I pointed out.
Most times it would be better off just being some other card, and that's why I'm calling it out as a trap card for many.
Personally, I'd say 21+ feels like the sweet spot. At 21 enchantments, you're at a point where you only fail 1 in 20 games to draw some cards right away with a turn 2 enchantress. Given that she is hard to remove and the possible high roll of drawing a ton of cards (especially with recurrent enchantments like Rancor, Whip Silk, etc), I'm willing to stomach *only* a 77.6% chance to get two or more enchantments that early. Note this is "enchantments you can cast" so you may want to leave the Zendikar's Resurgences and Overwhelming Splendors out of contention when building your deck. Conversely, I might consider Enlightened Tutor, Heliod's Pilgrim, etc. to be virtual enchantments when constructing my deck as they will grab something that then draws a card.
As you alluded to the thing is that you need to factor in casting costs of your enchantments as well, if you want to satisfy your own "sweet spot". If you're expecting to get a return on your Argothian Enchantress on Turn 3 say after casting her on Turn 2 for a 76% chance of casting an enchantment, then you can only included enchantments of converted mana cost 3 or less, in that particular equation.
You could alter this range a little bit if you play mana acceleration realistically at one or less range, Sol Ring, Birds of Paradise, Chrome Mox, etc.
If I have a deck that relies on a type, then it normally has to be at least one quarter of the deck, but I'm more probably going to aim for like a third.
So I'd need minimum of 25 enchantments before I'd start adding Argothian Enchantress or Eidolon of Blossoms, but as I say I would realistically aim for closer to 33 enchantments to feel like it's a better build.
Conversely if I have cards that are artifact specific, I would normally need at bare-minimum 25% of the deck to be artifacts.
How many 0 or 1 CMC artifacts before Trinket Mage gets a slot
I never changed my mind, you'll just have to read the posts properly.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
So even in the decks that it's more specialized for, I still think that it's only an average card for the builds. Not a very weird statement at all.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I'm pointing out that many people assume a particular thing from Crucible, and that they can put it in almost any deck, and that it instantly means that they get a land drop every turn for the rest of the game, this was highlighted by the below user...
So it's important to make it clear to players, that this is not true all the time. This is not an argument, it's a fact.
The thing is all I'm basically seeing is some very specific decks, Gitrog Monster, landfall (Titania or Omnath) and mass land destruction. At this point it's just a combo card, much like Food Chain is for certain decks.
So sort of pointing out that Food Chain is good for Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, is really the same thing as pointing out that Crucible is good for Gitrog, not necessary
So the thing is that this thread was about a formula for playing Crucible in decks, and this alluded to it being a sort of catch all card for any deck, "as long as you play a certain number of targets".
These conclusions have all come from actually playing the cards in a variety of decks, and ended up being cut due to ir underperfoming, for the reasons I've pointed out. Listen that's not to say that in synergy with cards it can't be good, Exploration, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, but we really are talking combo at this stage.
A lot of casual players are simply slotting it into their deck, thinking that they are going to get immediate value from the card because they are playing X number of fetches, and this is not what really happens.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
If you're using it with Strip Mine, Dust Bowl, Wasteland, this essentially doesn't even include being a land drop as you are using it for land destruction. You're not gaining traction on the opponents you're not destroying lands. Great in duels, not so great in multiplayer.
Then the thing that makes it least useful is when you just have natural lands to play from your hand. I mean you really have to have a deck that is very poor at drawing cards, because most games you have lands to play from your hand. Even a Gitrog deck tends to get a draw engine going where it's not often you don't have the lands to play from your hand.
So even in specialized decks, like landfall, it's an overrated card for the reasons I pointed out.
Most times it would be better off just being some other card, and that's why I'm calling it out as a trap card for many.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
You could alter this range a little bit if you play mana acceleration realistically at one or less range, Sol Ring, Birds of Paradise, Chrome Mox, etc.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
So I'd need minimum of 25 enchantments before I'd start adding Argothian Enchantress or Eidolon of Blossoms, but as I say I would realistically aim for closer to 33 enchantments to feel like it's a better build.
Conversely if I have cards that are artifact specific, I would normally need at bare-minimum 25% of the deck to be artifacts.
3. Yes Sol Ring and Mana Crypt really are that good, and hell, let's just throw in a Sensei's Divining Top while we are at it.
8. You can use Sunforger to cast Tithe, then you can get Mistveil Plains. This allows your deck to function on a very small margin of "targets" as you can just keep reshuffling in the ones you cast.
Hint; Swords to Plowshares, Oblation, Chaos Warp, Tithe, Enlightened Tutor, Boros Charm, Wear // Tear, Teferi's Protection, is all the love you need to run Sunforger.
No threshold meets the criteria, this card sucks. True story, always gets cut from decks due to under-performing.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith