Thanks, that's good advice. The only real reason I care about the win rate is because it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 3%-4%. I had a guy pull me aside and tell me that my decks don't have enough synergy in them. I can't get him to answer why he steals my creatures regardless of if I'm the biggest threat or not. I plan to add Poison-Tip Archer but have no idea what to cut for it.
I mean it sounds like the guy is running a theft style deck. Which is risky, but fair - it means getting your plays right, stealing the right things and not leaving yourself vulnerable. It could also be really annoying, but the other side of that coin is that because it's your stuff he's using there's a certain air of 'you did this to yourself/can't get mad because it's your stuff'. I get how it'd be annoying though, especially running white, where you don't have a lot of access to big mana, so you need to spend it wisely. As far as Poison-Tip Archer goes, it's a great card. I'd just playtest Meren, see what works and doesn't and go from there. It'll become apparent fairly quickly what works and what doesn't.
Back to the Starke player, I play big creatures. He destroys or steals whatever I have that's good, and if he doesn't someone else does. I can't keep beaters on the table for more than a couple turns, It's pretty crummy when I feel like I have to remove one player from the game before I can have any fun, and often he's leaving big bombs like Niv Mizzet (either one), Avenger of Zendikar.. combo pieces like Seedborn Muse, Fauna Shaman, and Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Isochron Scepter, Mimic Vat, and various other creatures and powerful artifacts on the table while he kills/steals my Akroma, Angel of Wrath, either Gisela, Bruna, the Fading Light, or even something pretty useless to him like a Herald of War sometimes, most of the time using a sac outlet to kill the creature after he's done with it. I may remove It that Betrays from my deck because I get really bad feels from theft, and I'd be playing theft with it.
Leave it in for now. It might help teach him a lesson. With enough instant speed sac outlets and forcing sac for other players you should be able to give him a taste of what he deals out. If it really does feel bad, take it out. But it might get this guy to reassess his targets. It does sound like he might be unfairly targeting you; Scion and Niv are dangerous pieces to leave in play. That being said, you need to teach him your stuff can't be taken. Run sacrifice outlets, always. Make sure you have one in play before you land anything. There's a good reason Ashnod's Altar is considered busted. It goes infinite super easy, its instant speed, and it ramps you into other spells. If he tries to take your stuff, sac it for value, use the mana to retaliate with something else; in short, fire back. Or mill him with Altar of Dementia, ping his stuff or his face with Goblin Bombardment, draw tons with Greater Good, shred his hand with Mind Slash. You've gotta run it if you're going to run big creatures. Either that or someboots. You should run some of both any deck you build really - especially with this guy in your meta.
Even if he wasn't the biggest obstacle to me winning, what he's doing still makes me feel terrible. I've considered quitting a couple times, mostly because of him. Part of me is afraid that he's going to steal my beaters in this deck, too. It's a Timmy's worst nightmare. I hope this deck is fun to play, because I can't play angels anymore. Meren isn't even the right colors for them. Sorry I'm harping so much on this. This is just my main issue, and I find I have a much better time when he doesn't come, or when he plays his Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck. How do I tell him that it ruins the game for me? Do I?
Honestly, Nath is usually seen as pretty damn griefy. Not many people like playing him, so if this makes you feel worse than that, you need to talk to him. Maybe just in terms of why you're being targeted. It could just be his threat assessment sucks, it's not uncommon. Or it could be his threat assessment is put off by beaters. Or it could be he's genuinely targeting you.
Tl;dr: I want to have a few big creatures in my deck, but I'm worried that the same thing will just keep happening again. Wondering how I deal with one deck that, were it out of the local meta, I'd have a lot more fun. Meren looks cool, but I'm not really keen on the art on most black cards. Kokusho is very cool, and is a dragon, so that's fun. I just don't get to play any angels. Maybe I need to upgrade my Archangel Avacyn deck after I make this one. Someone showed me a list that is more stax-oriented.
It sucks being locked out of a game, I totally understand. I'd rather sweep than watch someone play solitaire. There's a few archetypes that lean towards this - superfriends, stax, dedicated combo, MLD. I played a Daretti, Scrap Savant deck that was aiming for Nevinyrral's Disk/Mycosynth Lattice board wipe t4. I straight up told him if I saw Lattice I'd sweep, and when he kept going for it, he got targeted. Some people like playing that way, I don't get it. Interaction is why you play this game.
Don't let the artwork put you off too much - Meren is strong. Some of my favourite pieces of art are black and green - Greater Good, Necropotence, Blood Artist, Animate Dead, Deathreap Ritual, Endless Ranks of the Dead - there can be beauty in the darker side of MTG art. At any rate, even if you only run her as a 'when I want to game hard' deck, it's good to have that sort of deck. It helps your meta reassess you and the way you play, and makes sure they don't underestimate you as an easy beat.
I do think you should stick with Archangel Avacyn though, although I can't remember what it looked like. It's clearly more down your ally in terms of flavour, and I think it would be a decent option for a toolbox build that you can really make your own. Remember that part of doing that is playtesting and tweaking the deck for your meta - it's pretty rare to build a deck and have it immediately perform really well. Usually it takes some time refining the answers you want, the angles you want to leverage, getting the mana fixing and colour fixing right, getting draw levels where you want them, and making sure you have some contingency in case of emergencies.
These all seem reasonable additions. I'd maybe do some playtesting and see if the deck does what you want it to before committing a ton of money though, especially to the landbase, as it looks like you've easily a couple hundred dollars just there. See if the deck fits well in your meta first, and more importantly, whether you enjoy playing it - regardless of whether it wins or not.
With regards to that last point, it is important to keep perspective. Outside of beating down a non-competitive meta with savage combo, I tend not to believe anyone who says their win ratio is higher than say 50%. In a 3-4 player game, anything can happen, and if it's the same 4 people every time, it's likely your win% probably won't get higher than 25-33%. For myself I try to use a different yardstick. I look for improvement in the synergy of the deck; is it achieving what I want it to? Is that an effective game plan? Am I enjoying it, and is everyone else? That's what makes a good game to me. It definitely sounds like you've had some crap games and been targeted to some degree, but just remember winning isn't everything - the journey is as important as the destination.
Glad you've settled on a deck, too - Meren is a strong choice, and she's hard to keep out of the game. She can take off quick, and the win really can come out of nowhere.
EDIT: Generally I think it looks like a strong list. There's a couple of things I'd look at different options for:
Some of these are just cute choices. Journey seems slow and expensive to me, and I like rites, but I like sac outlets that don't cost anything to activate more. The other two are just beaters; they're decent but there are probably better options. I've gone over some of the more sac/reanimation lists I run for some options. Some of them might not fit, they're merely suggestions. Playing the list through will tell you what it needs, but here's my two cents nonetheless:
I don't think you need to resort to Avengerhoof, personally. It's a strong combo, but it can lead to bad feels. Tooth and Nail is generally seen as one of the more broken tutors in green, especially when used for these two cards. I don't think you'll need them in your list, but I guess there's always the option of adding it in later if you feel you really need a 'win' button. The other thing is aside from the plant tokens they don't really have a ton of synergy for the deck - sure you can sac the stuff for value, but these pieces otherwise do nothing when they die.
If you chose to put Birthing Pod into the list it might take a little work around in terms of making sure you have creatures at all CMC's 1 through 7ish, but that shouldn't be too hard.
I feel like any of these choices would be easy enough on a budget, though there's definitely some that are stronger than others. I've run Savra, Queen of the Golgari before, and as fun as it was she's a little outclassed these days. Meren of Clan Nel Toth is really strong, considering there are very very few ways to interact with experience counters.
There's a really good, really well established primer for Meren here on mtgs. It might be worth having a look at that, I'm pretty sure most of the deck could be built reasonably cheaply. I'm not sure about Alesha or the partners, but once you've set your mind on one deck or another let us know and we can help tune the list up.
Yeah, I am struggling, and didn't want to mention anything because I was afraid I'd hurt Weltkrieg, you, and the other people who've helped me with decks. To be honest, neither of my current decks are fully optimized yet. I'm missing some of the cards we decided on. That is likely a factor. I have been putting my money lately into my Duel Commander deck and have found much more success with that. In Duel Commander I end up at x-0, x-1, and x-0-1 in nearly every tournament I enter. I was having a lot of fun playing burn. I thought I'd found my format. Then, people stopped showing up, and the tournaments on Wednesdays were canceled.
Oh, don't worry about upsetting anyone. If it's not working you're best to own that and try to fix the problem.
So, I've started playing multiplayer commander again, and my win rate is quite close to 3%. I'm often focused down first, my creatures get killed/ stolen/ stolen and sacrificed or steal made permanent with Bazaar Trader. I find creatures being stolen and being attacked by my own creatures to be kinda demoralizing. There has been more than once that I've been killed by commander damage from my own commander
There's a lot of options here. You can play stuff to just grab them back like Brand or Homeward Path - good idea to run this anyway - but what you're going to find really, really handy is sac outlets. Things like Altar of Dementia, Ashnod's Altar, Goblin Bombardment, High Market and so forth are really clutch when your stuff is being stolen. If it's free, instant speed sacrifice for your benefit or someone else's detriment they'll stop trying. Hell, you could even turn the tables with Helm of Possession. There's blink, too - Eerie Interlude, Eldrazi Displacer, Restoration Angel, Whitemane Lion, Stonecloaker. If theft of your stuff is what's bugging you, these are your best strategies. You can make your stuff hexproof or whatever, but these are a more proactive answer - they let your opponents know that you know what they're up to, you won't allow it and you can turn it to your advantage. Just pillowforting almost challenges people to try and beat your setup, and if it doesn't work, you're in the same boat.
The conditions of what I'm trying to build is a deck that can compete in a semi-casual environment (like 75%ish), and one that is resistant to/ has answers for stax and creature theft. I really want to have an angel as a commander, so it seems like what I'm shooting for is building the most competitive budget deck I can with Krav and Regna, or an angel in Boros, Bant, mono white or Selesnya. I feel like mono-white has some glaring weaknesses, though, and Tariel costs a TON of mana, and I think a four color mana base for Atraxa is likely cost-prohibitive. I like the idea of having some sort of deterrent, like good removal, maybe an Aetherflux Reservoir with a ton of life built up. The Starke of Rath deck may not always be the strongest at the table, I just feel like it makes playing larger creatures a lot less fun, so I'd like to shut it down. Honestly, I wish that Justin just plain didn't play it, but it would be unfair of me to ask him that. His deck just makes me not want to play any good creatures, which makes me really sad.
I mean I think what you're shooting for is achievable with most of the angels you've considered. Sigarda and Bruna maybe not - they tend towards voltron strategies which is sort of all-in. But your existing deck, sure. Krav and Regna, sure. The key is in how you build it and pilot it, not who's at the helm (not so much, anyway). So my best advice is to pick the sort of strategies you want to employ to win, what answers you like best, and go from there. Orzhov I could see being more attrition/swarm oriented with the potential of some fairly obvious combos if you want to run them. Boros you know of, obviously. Bant, I'm not sure - I've never built bant, but Jenara seems a more toolbox build than anything else. I could see it being fun, but I can't see the angel theme carrying through well - whether that matters or not is up to you, of course. Mono white, you're right - it does have some weaknesses that require building around, and speaking for my own build it has been expensive to get to the level it's at right now. But a cheaper build can still be strong. It does require clever plays and a good poker face, though. Atraxa is obviously strong, but if you don't want to be archenemy, don't build her. She's the most played commander right now, and people don't expect to see anything good come of her, much like Kaalia.
So, yeah - have a think about what commanders excite you - narrow it down to 2 or 3, decide on some strategies you want to follow, and refine from there. It sounds like the specific problems you're having are totally able to be turned to your advantage, so establish yourself a starting point and we can help you build from there.
Good to see you again! Although sucks to hear you're still struggling.
So, I think there's some good advice here - I'v played Sigarda, host of Herons before, and she can be strong, but she's not what I'd call competitive these days. Voltron is tough, unless you're playing Narset, Enlightened Master's 'library vomit' nonsense. Even then, your meta will hate you, and with good reason. Honestly, she sucks to play against. Voltron kind of is a glass cannon approach - when it works, it'll work. When it doesn't, you don't really have any contingency.
Firstly, what are the conditions of what you're trying to build? You want reasonably strong for a semi-casual environment, right? Are you still committed to the concept of an angel commander? No judgement either way, it's just good to know the limits of what we can suggest.
Secondly, I think a lot of what you might be struggling with is threat assessment and tactical plays as much as having an optimal deck. And I don't mean any offense saying that, it's a pretty common thing. There's a ton of people out there who like to pilot a deck that plays itself, but when the same person plays a deck that requires making optimal choices they find themselves struggling to succeed. It's something I learned in a big way with my three favourite decks - Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Bruna, the Fading Light and Dralnu, Lich Lord - each of them are vulnerable when they're played suboptimally, so it's important to keep sharp and make the right choices for your plays at the right time. Some commanders you can vomit your hand onto the board and overwhelm people, but in general most of the angel commanders are not like that. Frankly, most of the bi-color combinations with white in them are not like that, and neither is mono white. And that's not a bad thing - it keeps the game interesting, challenges you mentally, and means that when you do win, it's a win you can be proud of. I had an interesting conversation about this on my Bruna thread with ISBpathfinder, who runs the same commander and is responsible for the previous Jenara primer. Essentially it boiled down to making your plays count as best you can for yourself, don't overcommit, don't be afraid to hold cards back if the time isn't right.
All that said, I think Krav and Regna could be good - I thought your Archangel Avacyn was good too, but it's a bummer that it's underperforming. I've seen a couple of interesting Krav/Regna builds, but it will depend what specific strategies and win conditions you see in your meta as to what you might choose to include. I don't think Sigarda is what you're looking for personally, and I think you might struggle with Bruna, Light of Alabaster, too.
If Krav/Regna doesn't do it for you, there's a few other recent angels that could be good builds. Lyra Dawnbringer is very strong, and has obvious synergy. And from personal experience, (not blowing my own trumpet, just giving the option) Bruna, the Fading Light is a deck that is really, really hard to keep down - it just keeps coming back. Food for thought, but I think you probably just need to settle on a commander that excites you, and we can help you move it in the direction of a build you're happy with.
I mean it sounds like the guy is running a theft style deck. Which is risky, but fair - it means getting your plays right, stealing the right things and not leaving yourself vulnerable. It could also be really annoying, but the other side of that coin is that because it's your stuff he's using there's a certain air of 'you did this to yourself/can't get mad because it's your stuff'. I get how it'd be annoying though, especially running white, where you don't have a lot of access to big mana, so you need to spend it wisely. As far as Poison-Tip Archer goes, it's a great card. I'd just playtest Meren, see what works and doesn't and go from there. It'll become apparent fairly quickly what works and what doesn't.
Leave it in for now. It might help teach him a lesson. With enough instant speed sac outlets and forcing sac for other players you should be able to give him a taste of what he deals out. If it really does feel bad, take it out. But it might get this guy to reassess his targets. It does sound like he might be unfairly targeting you; Scion and Niv are dangerous pieces to leave in play. That being said, you need to teach him your stuff can't be taken. Run sacrifice outlets, always. Make sure you have one in play before you land anything. There's a good reason Ashnod's Altar is considered busted. It goes infinite super easy, its instant speed, and it ramps you into other spells. If he tries to take your stuff, sac it for value, use the mana to retaliate with something else; in short, fire back. Or mill him with Altar of Dementia, ping his stuff or his face with Goblin Bombardment, draw tons with Greater Good, shred his hand with Mind Slash. You've gotta run it if you're going to run big creatures. Either that or some boots. You should run some of both any deck you build really - especially with this guy in your meta.
Honestly, Nath is usually seen as pretty damn griefy. Not many people like playing him, so if this makes you feel worse than that, you need to talk to him. Maybe just in terms of why you're being targeted. It could just be his threat assessment sucks, it's not uncommon. Or it could be his threat assessment is put off by beaters. Or it could be he's genuinely targeting you.
It sucks being locked out of a game, I totally understand. I'd rather sweep than watch someone play solitaire. There's a few archetypes that lean towards this - superfriends, stax, dedicated combo, MLD. I played a Daretti, Scrap Savant deck that was aiming for Nevinyrral's Disk/Mycosynth Lattice board wipe t4. I straight up told him if I saw Lattice I'd sweep, and when he kept going for it, he got targeted. Some people like playing that way, I don't get it. Interaction is why you play this game.
Don't let the artwork put you off too much - Meren is strong. Some of my favourite pieces of art are black and green - Greater Good, Necropotence, Blood Artist, Animate Dead, Deathreap Ritual, Endless Ranks of the Dead - there can be beauty in the darker side of MTG art. At any rate, even if you only run her as a 'when I want to game hard' deck, it's good to have that sort of deck. It helps your meta reassess you and the way you play, and makes sure they don't underestimate you as an easy beat.
I do think you should stick with Archangel Avacyn though, although I can't remember what it looked like. It's clearly more down your ally in terms of flavour, and I think it would be a decent option for a toolbox build that you can really make your own. Remember that part of doing that is playtesting and tweaking the deck for your meta - it's pretty rare to build a deck and have it immediately perform really well. Usually it takes some time refining the answers you want, the angles you want to leverage, getting the mana fixing and colour fixing right, getting draw levels where you want them, and making sure you have some contingency in case of emergencies.
With regards to that last point, it is important to keep perspective. Outside of beating down a non-competitive meta with savage combo, I tend not to believe anyone who says their win ratio is higher than say 50%. In a 3-4 player game, anything can happen, and if it's the same 4 people every time, it's likely your win% probably won't get higher than 25-33%. For myself I try to use a different yardstick. I look for improvement in the synergy of the deck; is it achieving what I want it to? Is that an effective game plan? Am I enjoying it, and is everyone else? That's what makes a good game to me. It definitely sounds like you've had some crap games and been targeted to some degree, but just remember winning isn't everything - the journey is as important as the destination.
Pretty sure it was from Innistrad standard - Blood Artist and Falkenrath Aristocrat became a solid bleeder strategy, and then Cartel Aristocrat may well have been around at the same time.
Glad you've settled on a deck, too - Meren is a strong choice, and she's hard to keep out of the game. She can take off quick, and the win really can come out of nowhere.
EDIT: Generally I think it looks like a strong list. There's a couple of things I'd look at different options for:
Penumbra Wurm
Vulturous Zombie
Journey to Eternity
Vampiric Rites
Some of these are just cute choices. Journey seems slow and expensive to me, and I like rites, but I like sac outlets that don't cost anything to activate more. The other two are just beaters; they're decent but there are probably better options. I've gone over some of the more sac/reanimation lists I run for some options. Some of them might not fit, they're merely suggestions. Playing the list through will tell you what it needs, but here's my two cents nonetheless:
Woodfall Primus
Champion of Lambholt
Living Death
Grave Titan
Viscera Seer
Smothering Abomination
Birthing Pod
I don't think you need to resort to Avengerhoof, personally. It's a strong combo, but it can lead to bad feels. Tooth and Nail is generally seen as one of the more broken tutors in green, especially when used for these two cards. I don't think you'll need them in your list, but I guess there's always the option of adding it in later if you feel you really need a 'win' button. The other thing is aside from the plant tokens they don't really have a ton of synergy for the deck - sure you can sac the stuff for value, but these pieces otherwise do nothing when they die.
If you chose to put Birthing Pod into the list it might take a little work around in terms of making sure you have creatures at all CMC's 1 through 7ish, but that shouldn't be too hard.
If you have an Assassin's Trophy and Overgrown Tomb, they would be super decent adds.
There's a really good, really well established primer for Meren here on mtgs. It might be worth having a look at that, I'm pretty sure most of the deck could be built reasonably cheaply. I'm not sure about Alesha or the partners, but once you've set your mind on one deck or another let us know and we can help tune the list up.
Oh, don't worry about upsetting anyone. If it's not working you're best to own that and try to fix the problem.
There's a lot of options here. You can play stuff to just grab them back like Brand or Homeward Path - good idea to run this anyway - but what you're going to find really, really handy is sac outlets. Things like Altar of Dementia, Ashnod's Altar, Goblin Bombardment, High Market and so forth are really clutch when your stuff is being stolen. If it's free, instant speed sacrifice for your benefit or someone else's detriment they'll stop trying. Hell, you could even turn the tables with Helm of Possession. There's blink, too - Eerie Interlude, Eldrazi Displacer, Restoration Angel, Whitemane Lion, Stonecloaker. If theft of your stuff is what's bugging you, these are your best strategies. You can make your stuff hexproof or whatever, but these are a more proactive answer - they let your opponents know that you know what they're up to, you won't allow it and you can turn it to your advantage. Just pillowforting almost challenges people to try and beat your setup, and if it doesn't work, you're in the same boat.
I mean I think what you're shooting for is achievable with most of the angels you've considered. Sigarda and Bruna maybe not - they tend towards voltron strategies which is sort of all-in. But your existing deck, sure. Krav and Regna, sure. The key is in how you build it and pilot it, not who's at the helm (not so much, anyway). So my best advice is to pick the sort of strategies you want to employ to win, what answers you like best, and go from there. Orzhov I could see being more attrition/swarm oriented with the potential of some fairly obvious combos if you want to run them. Boros you know of, obviously. Bant, I'm not sure - I've never built bant, but Jenara seems a more toolbox build than anything else. I could see it being fun, but I can't see the angel theme carrying through well - whether that matters or not is up to you, of course. Mono white, you're right - it does have some weaknesses that require building around, and speaking for my own build it has been expensive to get to the level it's at right now. But a cheaper build can still be strong. It does require clever plays and a good poker face, though. Atraxa is obviously strong, but if you don't want to be archenemy, don't build her. She's the most played commander right now, and people don't expect to see anything good come of her, much like Kaalia.
So, yeah - have a think about what commanders excite you - narrow it down to 2 or 3, decide on some strategies you want to follow, and refine from there. It sounds like the specific problems you're having are totally able to be turned to your advantage, so establish yourself a starting point and we can help you build from there.
So, I think there's some good advice here - I'v played Sigarda, host of Herons before, and she can be strong, but she's not what I'd call competitive these days. Voltron is tough, unless you're playing Narset, Enlightened Master's 'library vomit' nonsense. Even then, your meta will hate you, and with good reason. Honestly, she sucks to play against. Voltron kind of is a glass cannon approach - when it works, it'll work. When it doesn't, you don't really have any contingency.
Firstly, what are the conditions of what you're trying to build? You want reasonably strong for a semi-casual environment, right? Are you still committed to the concept of an angel commander? No judgement either way, it's just good to know the limits of what we can suggest.
Secondly, I think a lot of what you might be struggling with is threat assessment and tactical plays as much as having an optimal deck. And I don't mean any offense saying that, it's a pretty common thing. There's a ton of people out there who like to pilot a deck that plays itself, but when the same person plays a deck that requires making optimal choices they find themselves struggling to succeed. It's something I learned in a big way with my three favourite decks - Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Bruna, the Fading Light and Dralnu, Lich Lord - each of them are vulnerable when they're played suboptimally, so it's important to keep sharp and make the right choices for your plays at the right time. Some commanders you can vomit your hand onto the board and overwhelm people, but in general most of the angel commanders are not like that. Frankly, most of the bi-color combinations with white in them are not like that, and neither is mono white. And that's not a bad thing - it keeps the game interesting, challenges you mentally, and means that when you do win, it's a win you can be proud of. I had an interesting conversation about this on my Bruna thread with ISBpathfinder, who runs the same commander and is responsible for the previous Jenara primer. Essentially it boiled down to making your plays count as best you can for yourself, don't overcommit, don't be afraid to hold cards back if the time isn't right.
All that said, I think Krav and Regna could be good - I thought your Archangel Avacyn was good too, but it's a bummer that it's underperforming. I've seen a couple of interesting Krav/Regna builds, but it will depend what specific strategies and win conditions you see in your meta as to what you might choose to include. I don't think Sigarda is what you're looking for personally, and I think you might struggle with Bruna, Light of Alabaster, too.
If Krav/Regna doesn't do it for you, there's a few other recent angels that could be good builds. Lyra Dawnbringer is very strong, and has obvious synergy. And from personal experience, (not blowing my own trumpet, just giving the option) Bruna, the Fading Light is a deck that is really, really hard to keep down - it just keeps coming back. Food for thought, but I think you probably just need to settle on a commander that excites you, and we can help you move it in the direction of a build you're happy with.