Ohhh I totally mentioned the silver border thing in the scum chat! It was ahead of Academy at the time in my speculation. I think I was more likely to engage with it as scum but it's the sort of thing I just can't resist thinking about as either alignment.
@Axel yeah that's just the way it goes. I thought the way I was trying to push Rez over Vez not breaking the letter of my call not to share looked awful in retrospect but no one ever seemed to touch that. It was such a convoluted reason to push him. Different people latch onto different things I guess.
Anyway I had a great if futile time this game. It was great playing with Bur and Dan and even though we got smashed I had fun hanging out in the scum chat despairing how many people my flip was going to clear.
I totally didn't see this ended. Despite getting stomped I really enjoyed this game! I it felt good to give a respectable effort in a losing game after the team event and I loved the flavor and setup. Plus wuffles was a great mod, fully engaged and on top of it at all times and just a great guy.
On play stuff I definitely was trying to do too much. When I saw the rand and how stacked the town team was I definitely was despairing a bit. And the town lived up to it. Cantrip, Iso, Highroller, Terry, and even Az who defended me more than most all did some dunking on me. At times I felt some of my scummiest behaviors were being ignored in favor of things I felt were NAI but it's hard to argue with the results.
On my claim since it was the nail in the coffin in a lot of ways; I don't regret it. I do believe that Roleblockers are a relatively equal alignment role in role madness games. On the flavor, I don't know. It seemed to persuade a non zero number of people but I think that was a bit reckless of a connection to make.
The fact that my flip cleared highroller was unfortunate but he wasn't going to get lynched after I died so it was no harm no foul fortunately.
I was shocked that people even considered Vez scum given the way I was trying so hard to pocket him and the way he was a pivotal vote to get me lynched. Before his vote there was a real no lynch or lynch Bur opportunity. Once he voted me it was all over.
I had so much fun trying to solve Cantrip's hinting. I knew he was hinting at artifacts with the chromatics need not apply line. What I got wrong was taking the dream talk for motivating or extra actions instead of visiting overnight. I had this idea that he could have someone skip something to do an extra thing. Tolarian Academy was my next guess (for caring about artifacts) but either way I was way off because I assumed it would be incredibly powerful rather than the useless Baker role that it was.
Axel has hinted he would vote Terry over me. Dan and Bur are MIA. Even with that Axel vote, Terry can't get lynched without lurkers showing (and given it's the middle of the night for Bur I think we can cross him off) or people defecting from my wagon...
Not ideal. KA has expressed a willingness to kill me and I fully expect most on my wagon would kill me over no lynching.
@Grape: Can you address my question about your 352? I'll repost it for easy reference:
Can you speak to your 352? Do you think Rez and Terry are buddies? If not, how does your mindset in that post make sense?
I don't have a strong aligned or unaligned read on them. My realization was that I was scum reading both for similar things and Terry had become even more aggressive in avoiding engaging in depth (and continues to do so, see his reply to Az here).
And on asking Highroller about why he made his choice, I feel like there was opportunity to do so before you came under significant scrutiny and certainly before you got to claim range, but I don't see any movement from you to do so. You say you didn't even think about it...that surprises me if you're town, as I think you're a good player, and when presented with a tool, town generally tend to start thinking how best to use that tool. I mean, I geeked out a little about my card, too, but then I started figuring out ways to maximize its effectiveness.
Once there are more datapoints I'll start looking at his motivation but trying to figure out if his choices mean anything when I only know two cards doesn't seem that helpful. And his reasoning is less interesting to me than comparing his choice to flips. If he is scum the choice would come down to wine (does he choose his own or his teammates) and none of that requires me to have a knowledge of the player I chose.
@Terry why did you vote me if you think Vez slipped that I'm town?
@Cantrip on 50 I didn't read the game. I just knew you'd proposed it after asking me about your character in the team chat. I was trying to understand Vez because the whole thing was weird. I'm not really even sure what point you're making other than I forgot you said you weren't serious.
On the targeting, that makes sense. I didn't consider it as I was geeking out about gifts too much. Thinking about it now I think there is too much wine to draw information from the choice. Scum would know 3 cards and probably have a mix of types. The person on the receiving end doesn't have much context to work with. It would have been nice to grill highroller on why he chose before I revealed but I wasn't really in a position to do so the way the game played out.
@Highroller so you think I'm scum (in part) because I believe multiple roles would care about card types but was surprised you didn't guess I was the one who sent you the choice?
@Highroller I'm saying literally you are the only person who would find that sufficient. Even if you didn't go "aha Grape must have sent me the message" I'm shocked you didn't at least speculate or wonder if it was.
As for your assertion that I'm acting like mafia because I'm voting and providing reasoning after that's how I play as both alignments. It's why ISO scum reads me every game. Which is funny because it's inspired by him to some degree.
@Cantrip On post 50 I'm bad at jokes. I like trying to make them, but I'm decidedly unfunny. The insulted and complimented thing was the way everyone was talking about me in a position of authority on whether Vez should have claimed. I don't get your point on my bringing up you being scum in the other game. On Vez's talking about the flavor claim what was your reaction to it on reread. Ignoring my reaction for a second what did you think when you saw him mention it?
For 188 I've said a few times now I worry less about building teams on D1. I think KA's vote was scummy and should have been pushed, but I thhink the way Vez pushed him over it was even scummier than the vote. It's unlikely both are scum together but both were scummy. I'm not trying to build worlds on D1.
On my targeting Highroller your suspicions here make no sense to me. I don't understand why my stated reasoning is suspect to you (the man posts a ton on the forums and has a literal banned card as his avatar) and I don't get how it leads to a scum read. I am utterly baffled by why this matters to you. Especially since there isn't any doubt that it's happened.
On why the conditional nature points to me being town: having a full RB is much more likely to unbalance town than it is scum. Town often have watered down roles in games like these (limited shots are the most common trope) while scum are more likely to have fully powered roles. Not a hard and fast rule but a soft point towards my role being townie.
Work has been crazy but I think I answered all the direct questions.
We're about 27 hours from the deadline and I feel like there has been little discernible movement. Given we're about 26 hours from the deadline we probably need to kick things back into gear.
@Highroller why the questions about how much of a breadcrumb my caring about card types was?
@Axel you mention preferring lynching a lurker (Dan or Bur) do you have a preference between the two?
@everyone who are you willing to lynch and who do you want to lynch?
1 of highroller, Iso, and Cantrip is probably scum here.
Why that set specifically?
That group because they are all pushing me confidently without having concrete reasoning. They all are saying that have these reasons but despite reading there posts I can't figure out what their specific issues with me are.
@Az: I’m a solid 3 as scum. I don’t fake reads well, and my “supportive” townplay (more questions for other people to feed off of as opposed to my using them to drive scumreads) doesn’t really generate a lot of credit beyond the opening days.
I don’t think the adjective choice/lack of “passion” is necessarily AI for Terry (his 5th post you’re referring to in 303). I feel like I come from a group of players that would reflect both sides of that spectrum adequately as all alignments. Would you say you have a strong grasp on his meta, or is this consistently AI for you?
Don’t feel like you need to dump your notes, but you’ve literally only demonstrated public effort on deciphering three individuals after your first two posts (which, from what I can see, ceased review at 188): Terry, GF and myself. Give me some thoughts on the rest of the game early Tomorrow. I’d say today, but I don’t think that’s productive given our proximity to the deadline and the momentum of the current wagons.
Something you can do relate to toDay, however, is respond to my thoughts on Terry’s meta below. Behaviorally, I don’t have issue with what you’re saying, but I’m willing to have meta outweigh it in this specific circumstance. I can further prove my work if desired.
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@Iso I’m torn on Highroller’s 219. On one hand, the mindset behind this post reads as scumhunting: trying to make a multifaceted argument is pretty difficult when you know each of your points can be refuted (as scum). On the other hand, as others have pointed out, he’s reaching on a few points, and seems bloodthirsty. Those can be town indicative when you start tunneling, so I think it’s still net +town for that level of effort.
Why didn’t you like it?
Bur’s defeatism in 282 pings me as discouraged scum. He didn’t roll the role he wanted, and RL has been keeping him down. So, why put in effort?
Strongly agree with the Bur/Grape interaction. Seems like the perfect passing “interaction” for lazy review in the future.
What do you think about Vezok’s 450?
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@Cantrip: I was considering the fake daykill as a “gotcha” moment. I would put Iso’s ISO of Iso within scum!Iso’s ISO range.
@GF: (310) So your first choice is rez. If you thought someone saw something towny about him, but he was one of your leading scumspects, why would you not ask for that to get clarified?
@Highroller What did GF’s claim do for you?
@KA: What hypocracy were you referring to in 264? And if you really think that Iso is intending to ask you questions, but isn’t giving you something to answer, why not give him something to work with? Do you think this increasing animosity is beneficial for the town?
Oh, you did this in 330. Better late than never..? I feel like Iso was being pretty clear on what he was wanting from you.
@Axel: Literally everything I can think of about you this game is “GF’s not scum,” theory and setup-based. Am I wrong?
Oh hey you did a thing in 533 WAIT IT’S THE SAME THING
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Rez’s responses in 268 satisfy me.
My opinion on GF was pretty high, relatively speaking, until the 300s. 310, 346, 352 are all bad for a variety of reasons (fencesitting, flailing, trying to take the easy lynch out, “low hanging fruit” of both the individual [Az] and reasons for liking him). Claim does nothing. Saying I’ve done less than Bur is tilting.
I’m confident KA/Terry cannot be S/S after the page 8 interactions. I’m also confident that Terry’s frantic posting on pages 8/9 is identical to how he was behaving in Playstation when he was about to be mislynched. It’s following a very similar pattern, where I think he’s scummy for a variety of reasons, then he doubles down on his posting style and asks questions with the similar level of aggression (both constructively and otherwise). Not a behavioral fan prior to that.
KA/GF interactions (and KA’s reaction to GF’s claim), OTOH, seem to point towards a >rand S/S relationship. “Oh great, an excuse for me to unvote my scumbuddy and try to force a NL at deadline! It’s even got a bit of momentum, so I’ll just ride this CFD to the finish line.”
We should really not flavorgame.
I’ll probably spend tomorrow at work getting some better notes on pages 9-11. There assuredly needs to be more questions, but my brain is drained at current. Mom is home, and I may be cancelling a long weekend trip I had planned (homecoming in my neck of the woods), but I’ll definitely be here at deadline given it’s Friday at 9p.
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Dan
Vezok (seriously, take this to the bank)
Iso
Cantrip (should be higher, I’m just paranoid after Phantom Tollbooth where I had him higher at this point of the game)
Highroller
TRSJT (maybe he’s just replicating that town game perfectly, but I HIGHLY doubt that is fake emotion)
Az (I won’t be naive and attempt to say I have a read on him at this point)
Bur (??)
Axel (?)
Rez
GF
KA
I can't imagine someone reading me this game and thinking Rez and KA are my buddies. That's actually unbelievable.
Rez was my leading candidate. It was about his lack of engagement and curiosity. When he pointed out that Terry was doing the same I realized I preferred Terry. There is also [redacted] which I liked but want to see more of before commenting. So still a high lynch priority but safely behind Terry at this point.
@Terry which I think answers your question. Yes I still suspect you. I don't have the highest confidence on the read but it's definitely closer to 2/3 than 1/4.
@Cantrip I was replying to 64. Rez's push felt so forced and using my suggestion as the justification was especially weird as by the letter of what I said Vez didn't go against what I said. He went against the spirit of it but not the letter.
Too many people are talking in very confident terms about me without giving any hard evidence. I don't like this one bit.
1 of highroller, Iso, and Cantrip is probably scum here. Gut says Cantrip but I don't have much. It's the way he's asked me a bunch of questions, seemed either satisfied with most (not the ones about my attentiveness I suppose) and then continuing to scum read me while not pointing to anything. We've interacted a ton this game and for him to just to express an "off" feeling doesn't seem right to me. Don't really have any thoughts of his being aligned or not with either Terry or Rez. Will try to look at that but don't expect to have time to do much before the deadline and I'm always dubious of that stuff before flips.
Iso just feels like Iso and I can't tell if this is him reading me wrong for the umpteenth time or if it's him roleplaying blustery confident Iso like he did in F&E.
Anyway RB's are a common scum role. They are also commonly town in Role Madness games. Both sides usually need some form of blocking. The fact that I haven't been CC'd is a great look for me to be quite honest.
rofl what
if you're town why would scum 1-for-1 you when they could just kill you in the Night and not worry about it
or...just let you get lynched
This is not a town mindset.
That was literally my point. Scum would never CC here but townies almost always would (see Phantom Tollbooth or Arkham for recent games of people falling all over themselves to CC as town). So I'd say it's a pretty good data point that I'm town here.
right let's ignore the fact that Roleblockers are usually scum
And let's also ignore that they show up as town quite often, especially in role madness games like I cited. Like this game is. I'm not saying this is a clearing claim, it's obviously not, but it's also not a slam dunk RB=scum case.
Anyway RB's are a common scum role. They are also commonly town in Role Madness games. Both sides usually need some form of blocking. The fact that I haven't been CC'd is a great look for me to be quite honest.
rofl what
if you're town why would scum 1-for-1 you when they could just kill you in the Night and not worry about it
or...just let you get lynched
This is not a town mindset.
That was literally my point. Scum would never CC here but townies almost always would (see Phantom Tollbooth or Arkham for recent games of people falling all over themselves to CC as town). So I'd say it's a pretty good data point that I'm town here.
@Cantrip I have no idea what your behavioral issues with me are, but RB's are commonly town in role madness games. 4 of the last 5 had town RB's or variants (Phantom Tollbooth had a delayer and Pirates had a jailer, Playstation had a straight RB that could turn into vig as did Zero Escape). I also feel like there is basically no resistance to my wagon. There has been basically no movement, minus Vez who has said he'll vote me, since the deadline extension. I feel like it's been decided and everyone is just twiddling their thumbs till the deadline. Which is frustrating.
Anyway RB's are a common scum role. They are also commonly town in Role Madness games. Both sides usually need some form of blocking. The fact that I haven't been CC'd is a great look for me to be quite honest.
This feels scummy.
I'd be saying it if I was scum too (to bait out a CC) but it doesn't change the fact that I sat there free for the lynching, everyone checked in (except Bur and sort of Dan) and I wasn't CC'd despite it being an easy one to do if there was a town RB or equivalent out there. And scum wouldn't 1 for 1 here since they could just pile on without the CC and make up reasoning (close to deadline, didn't like my Terry vote, RB is a scum role).
@Terry How about instead of talking about my role you explain why my vote on you was bad.
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@Axel yeah that's just the way it goes. I thought the way I was trying to push Rez over Vez not breaking the letter of my call not to share looked awful in retrospect but no one ever seemed to touch that. It was such a convoluted reason to push him. Different people latch onto different things I guess.
On play stuff I definitely was trying to do too much. When I saw the rand and how stacked the town team was I definitely was despairing a bit. And the town lived up to it. Cantrip, Iso, Highroller, Terry, and even Az who defended me more than most all did some dunking on me. At times I felt some of my scummiest behaviors were being ignored in favor of things I felt were NAI but it's hard to argue with the results.
On my claim since it was the nail in the coffin in a lot of ways; I don't regret it. I do believe that Roleblockers are a relatively equal alignment role in role madness games. On the flavor, I don't know. It seemed to persuade a non zero number of people but I think that was a bit reckless of a connection to make.
The fact that my flip cleared highroller was unfortunate but he wasn't going to get lynched after I died so it was no harm no foul fortunately.
I was shocked that people even considered Vez scum given the way I was trying so hard to pocket him and the way he was a pivotal vote to get me lynched. Before his vote there was a real no lynch or lynch Bur opportunity. Once he voted me it was all over.
I had so much fun trying to solve Cantrip's hinting. I knew he was hinting at artifacts with the chromatics need not apply line. What I got wrong was taking the dream talk for motivating or extra actions instead of visiting overnight. I had this idea that he could have someone skip something to do an extra thing. Tolarian Academy was my next guess (for caring about artifacts) but either way I was way off because I assumed it would be incredibly powerful rather than the useless Baker role that it was.
Axel has hinted he would vote Terry over me. Dan and Bur are MIA. Even with that Axel vote, Terry can't get lynched without lurkers showing (and given it's the middle of the night for Bur I think we can cross him off) or people defecting from my wagon...
Not ideal. KA has expressed a willingness to kill me and I fully expect most on my wagon would kill me over no lynching.
Very not ideal.
Vote: Bur
I don't have a strong aligned or unaligned read on them. My realization was that I was scum reading both for similar things and Terry had become even more aggressive in avoiding engaging in depth (and continues to do so, see his reply to Az here).
Once there are more datapoints I'll start looking at his motivation but trying to figure out if his choices mean anything when I only know two cards doesn't seem that helpful. And his reasoning is less interesting to me than comparing his choice to flips. If he is scum the choice would come down to wine (does he choose his own or his teammates) and none of that requires me to have a knowledge of the player I chose.
@Terry why did you vote me if you think Vez slipped that I'm town?
On the targeting, that makes sense. I didn't consider it as I was geeking out about gifts too much. Thinking about it now I think there is too much wine to draw information from the choice. Scum would know 3 cards and probably have a mix of types. The person on the receiving end doesn't have much context to work with. It would have been nice to grill highroller on why he chose before I revealed but I wasn't really in a position to do so the way the game played out.
@Highroller so you think I'm scum (in part) because I believe multiple roles would care about card types but was surprised you didn't guess I was the one who sent you the choice?
As for your assertion that I'm acting like mafia because I'm voting and providing reasoning after that's how I play as both alignments. It's why ISO scum reads me every game. Which is funny because it's inspired by him to some degree.
@Cantrip On post 50 I'm bad at jokes. I like trying to make them, but I'm decidedly unfunny. The insulted and complimented thing was the way everyone was talking about me in a position of authority on whether Vez should have claimed. I don't get your point on my bringing up you being scum in the other game. On Vez's talking about the flavor claim what was your reaction to it on reread. Ignoring my reaction for a second what did you think when you saw him mention it?
For 188 I've said a few times now I worry less about building teams on D1. I think KA's vote was scummy and should have been pushed, but I thhink the way Vez pushed him over it was even scummier than the vote. It's unlikely both are scum together but both were scummy. I'm not trying to build worlds on D1.
On my targeting Highroller your suspicions here make no sense to me. I don't understand why my stated reasoning is suspect to you (the man posts a ton on the forums and has a literal banned card as his avatar) and I don't get how it leads to a scum read. I am utterly baffled by why this matters to you. Especially since there isn't any doubt that it's happened.
On why the conditional nature points to me being town: having a full RB is much more likely to unbalance town than it is scum. Town often have watered down roles in games like these (limited shots are the most common trope) while scum are more likely to have fully powered roles. Not a hard and fast rule but a soft point towards my role being townie.
Work has been crazy but I think I answered all the direct questions.
@Highroller why the questions about how much of a breadcrumb my caring about card types was?
@Axel you mention preferring lynching a lurker (Dan or Bur) do you have a preference between the two?
@everyone who are you willing to lynch and who do you want to lynch?
That group because they are all pushing me confidently without having concrete reasoning. They all are saying that have these reasons but despite reading there posts I can't figure out what their specific issues with me are.
I can't imagine someone reading me this game and thinking Rez and KA are my buddies. That's actually unbelievable.
Rez was my leading candidate. It was about his lack of engagement and curiosity. When he pointed out that Terry was doing the same I realized I preferred Terry. There is also [redacted] which I liked but want to see more of before commenting. So still a high lynch priority but safely behind Terry at this point.
@Terry which I think answers your question. Yes I still suspect you. I don't have the highest confidence on the read but it's definitely closer to 2/3 than 1/4.
@Cantrip I was replying to 64. Rez's push felt so forced and using my suggestion as the justification was especially weird as by the letter of what I said Vez didn't go against what I said. He went against the spirit of it but not the letter.
1 of highroller, Iso, and Cantrip is probably scum here. Gut says Cantrip but I don't have much. It's the way he's asked me a bunch of questions, seemed either satisfied with most (not the ones about my attentiveness I suppose) and then continuing to scum read me while not pointing to anything. We've interacted a ton this game and for him to just to express an "off" feeling doesn't seem right to me. Don't really have any thoughts of his being aligned or not with either Terry or Rez. Will try to look at that but don't expect to have time to do much before the deadline and I'm always dubious of that stuff before flips.
Iso just feels like Iso and I can't tell if this is him reading me wrong for the umpteenth time or if it's him roleplaying blustery confident Iso like he did in F&E.
And let's also ignore that they show up as town quite often, especially in role madness games like I cited. Like this game is. I'm not saying this is a clearing claim, it's obviously not, but it's also not a slam dunk RB=scum case.
That was literally my point. Scum would never CC here but townies almost always would (see Phantom Tollbooth or Arkham for recent games of people falling all over themselves to CC as town). So I'd say it's a pretty good data point that I'm town here.
@Cantrip I have no idea what your behavioral issues with me are, but RB's are commonly town in role madness games. 4 of the last 5 had town RB's or variants (Phantom Tollbooth had a delayer and Pirates had a jailer, Playstation had a straight RB that could turn into vig as did Zero Escape). I also feel like there is basically no resistance to my wagon. There has been basically no movement, minus Vez who has said he'll vote me, since the deadline extension. I feel like it's been decided and everyone is just twiddling their thumbs till the deadline. Which is frustrating.
I'd be saying it if I was scum too (to bait out a CC) but it doesn't change the fact that I sat there free for the lynching, everyone checked in (except Bur and sort of Dan) and I wasn't CC'd despite it being an easy one to do if there was a town RB or equivalent out there. And scum wouldn't 1 for 1 here since they could just pile on without the CC and make up reasoning (close to deadline, didn't like my Terry vote, RB is a scum role).
@Terry How about instead of talking about my role you explain why my vote on you was bad.