MTG Salvation

So, there was no reason Dan was Black and Green?

And seeing Cantrip's full role...his first post still makes no sense to me. That's clearly a sign of a poor sub-claim!

@Wuffles: I don't think there's a rule that says you have to reveal the full role PMs on death, is there? Frankly I was a tiny bit surprised at the full role reveal (minus the Quests) precisely because it confirmed Highroller, and I thought you simply didn't have to do that. I will stand by my assertion, however, that if you make the role such that it is allowed to target a fellow Mafia member, then that is the only sensible play for scum to make, and then it becomes essentially the same thing as having them choose for themselves.

@Grapefruit: I thought you did a fine job, D1 lynch notwithstanding. It's funny to me how different players have such different takes on things. Like, clearly multiple people thought you were suspicious, but the things they were pinging you for did not resonate at all with me. I guess I'm just looking for different stuff in my scum.

Well that's nice! Saves me from having to work my way through all the hypothetical scenarios in case Dan wasn't the last scum.

It is a game of variance, that's for sure, but especially in a mini game. If Town hits and then a vig. hits (nice shot again, Terry) the scum are so outnumbered that it would take an almost superhuman effort (plus a really good claim) to overcome.

Good game, guys.

I've got some errands to run today and haven't spent any time thinking about strategy yet, but I plan to. So, I'd ask there be no lynching until I can do at least a rough run down. That probably doesn't change the fact that Dan is looking like the guy (and both the heavy lurkers were scum, the end). But, you know, alternate plans if it's somehow wrong.

All right, here's the rest of me.

I held back one thing from my initial claim, because I had an unusual result and I wanted to see if any of the other claimers were going to explain/take responsibility for it, but that didn't happen (yet).

In addition to getting a player's card types, I also get their colors.

I targeted Dan last night. I got that he was a Green and Black Creature - Skeleton Troll. Looking through the entire banned list I deduced that the only card this could be was the Golgari Grave Troll. I further deduced (and this was not exactly rocket science) that he was probably the role that ate the Goblin out of the graveyard last night. I thought this might be a point in Dan's favor actually, as per my earlier theory-crafting post, as I made the assumption that - at least until there were multiple people claiming roles that interacted with those graveyard goblins - the role that did that was probably Town.

The thing that stuck out most, however, was that he was "Black" where the Grave Troll is a mono-green creature. What was that all about? I shot an immediate query to the mod. as to whether he might, per chance, have made an error, and was told that there was no error. So I assumed that something happened last night that turned Dan black. I thought this might be another point in Dan's favor initially. Because, I thought, maybe the scum have a role that turns people "black" and maybe that messes with Cop results or something, or if it was a Townie that did it to him, they would claim it, but again, unless I am missing something, no one has claimed any roles that turn people other colors (yet) and no one has claimed a role that even cares what color someone is.

Which is kind of odd to me, because that's part of my "quest" ability. After I've successfully targeted two people, the third night I gain the ability, in addition, to specify a card type and color, and my target gains that card type and color. Seems like the card type part was potentially meaningful, in as much as Terry could only hit lands, and I could turn someone into a land. But with Terry being 1-shot, seems like the odds that would end up being relevant were small. I don't see where any other roles - at least as currently claimed - care about what someone's card type or color is. Maybe someone else is holding something back?

In any event, with Vez resurrecting people out of the Graveyard, and Rezombied needing to use corpses as well, my earlier speculation that Dan's role is more likely Town is completely rescinded, in as much as it appears his role is actively hindering those other roles. I still don't understand why he is "Black." Maybe he becomes black when he eats a corpse, but then it seems like he ought to have been informed of that. Maybe it's some other ability he didn't claim, which might indicate he's scum. Maybe the scum did do something to him to turn him black - except the fact that Dan is claiming he wasn't even given his color initially seems to argue against that. This is why I was kind of harping on that issue with him. Maybe our mod. just made a complete boo boo and only thought that the Grave troll was a Green and Black creature and never looked it up at all, but that seem's less likely to me.

Here's my claim post again. I deliberately did this to get out in front of Dan's claim, and also the claim of anyone else who might have claimed an action or ability that turned Dan Black, just so I could point back to it to "prove" that I knew Dan was black before said claim:

Quote from Axelrod »

Dude, you have to see that the odds of Terry being scum here are astronomically small.
Astronomically.
Notwithstanding the fact that, yes, it is technically a non-zero possibility.
I do remember the last game I played with Terry, and in that game he was stubborn and kind of did what he wanted regardless of whether it was a good idea or not .
So his refusal to claim anything more here is not at all inconsistent or suspicious.

But on that topic, I kind of want to just go ahead and start claiming things.
Less because I think it's absolutely the best idea ever and more because I'm kinda bored.
Kinda. I want to more it forward, and I have a hard time seeing how we lose from this position (famous last words, I know). So anyway, I will start with just this:

I am the Painter's Servant. I can target a player at night and learn their Races/Card Types. Like, had I targeted Bur or Cantrip my result would have been "Legendary Land". If I targeted myself my result is "Artifact Creature - Scarecrow." I targeted someone last night and have a result. Won't say who just yet, but the result was unusual enough that I'm pretty sure I know their card. I also have a "Quest" ability that turns on at a certain point but I guess I'll keep that one under wraps for the moment too. This ability seems not that great. The odds that a scum false-claims their card/race/type appears low to me, but still potentially useful, and maybe moreso in combination with others. So there it is.

I need a giff for *interesting* with the fingers.

Will have more to say when everyone's done.

Quote from ganderin_dan »

I question the black, as I was told that prior to claiming, but I know that GGT is only green. I've asked Wuffles to confirm.

What do you mean you were told that "prior to claiming?" You weren't told it right from the beginning of the game? Like in your role PM?

Are we just Rezombied and Iso at this point? Plus some details. Then I figure out how to win the game guaranteed

If Az has a "motivator" ability that goes off during the day and the person he targets gets informed of it, that seems pretty strong and confirm-able. Except, does that mean you didn't do it D1?

Quote from vezokpiraka »

With that said, I really don't believe terry is scum. Why would scum terry claim az would flip rolecop. It's not something that scum thinks about.

I think axelrod is the last scum though.

Ah, you make me sad. Shouldn't matter though.

Quote from ganderin_dan »

I'm Golgari Grave-Troll, town BP. Green (and black?!) Creature - Skeleton Troll

Why the (and black?!)

Quote from KamikazeArchon »

Highroller, everyone in the thread seems to strongly disagree with you on Mafia theory. Are you going to continue pushing Mafia theory or are you going to do something else?

Oh Lord, don't ask this question.

Say what you will, but he's a man who feels the strength of his convictions.

And that said, I'm going back to just re-reading stuff and trying to analyze the actual play of things.

Quote from Highroller »

But if it helps at all, I'm also a vig. I have a third ability - or to be more accurate, if a certain condition is met I will have a third kill ability, I don't have it now - that I kept secret until now.

I knew you were holding something back. Someday maybe people will just stop questioning my ability to game a set up. This does put the graveyard eater more back into play as a possible scum role, assuming your killing ability has something to do with the graveyard. If it doesn't, then my earlier point still stands.

I'm assuming Terry's shot isn't unlimited. Could very, very easily be something like "Target player, if they are a land they die, if not (do something else)" Sort of a conditional role like GF's. Makes sense to me given how he's into whether we are lands or not, the role could kill Townies (see: Cantrip) and he would have then gotten a bit lucky with Bur. Multiple (conditional) killing roles existing in the same Town is not difficult for me to believe.

Quote from Highroller »

Quote from TheRealStinkyJoeTerry »

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree for now HR

No, I expect a full claim from you.

Unvote, Vote Terry. What do you have to hide?

Dude, you have to see that the odds of Terry being scum here are astronomically small. Astronomically. Notwithstanding the fact that, yes, it is technically a non-zero possibility. I do remember the last game I played with Terry, and in that game he was stubborn and kind of did what he wanted regardless of whether it was a good idea or not . So his refusal to claim anything more here is not at all inconsistent or suspicious.

But on that topic, I kind of want to just go ahead and start claiming things. Less because I think it's absolutely the best idea ever and more because I'm kinda bored. Kinda. I want to more it forward, and I have a hard time seeing how we lose from this position (famous last words, I know). So anyway, I will start with just this:

I am the Painter's Servant. I can target a player at night and learn their Races/Card Types. Like, had I targeted Bur or Cantrip my result would have been "Legendary Land". If I targeted myself my result is "Artifact Creature - Scarecrow." I targeted someone last night and have a result. Won't say who just yet, but the result was unusual enough that I'm pretty sure I know their card. I also have a "Quest" ability that turns on at a certain point but I guess I'll keep that one under wraps for the moment too. This ability seems not that great. The odds that a scum false-claims their card/race/type appears low to me, but still potentially useful, and maybe moreso in combination with others. So there it is.

Quote from Azrael »

Quote from rezombied »

Vote: vezokpiraka

I don't know that it makes a ton of sense for Vez to murder the guy he spent the most time attacking, thereby demonstrating to the town how wrong he was about that thing, in addition to Grape. *shrug*

I think I still don't favor a mass-claim yet until slightly later in the game. If we have additional investigative or other roles, or if the scum aren't able to to an accurate threat assessment, they may kill some of the wrong people and allow us to benefit from a few more rounds of night interactions. Losing their RBer helps militate in favor of a claim, but they still have a NK at play. Maybe it doesn't matter as much since Iso already part-claimed, IDK, but if the mafia are on the fence about whether they can safely kill Iso tonight or not, I'd say that's probably a good thing.

We do seem to have some roles that might work cooperatively with others, though. So it might not be the worst thing. *thinks*

Yeah, I think I'd rather give it at least one more day before we mass.

Quote from Azrael »

The biggest factor is that right now, the mafia don't know if we have protective roles, and they don't know how dangerous Iso and Terry are, whether they have reusable abilities.

So they have to play around a doctor, and they have to take their best guess as to how much of a threat those two represent, vs. how much of a threat the rest of us might present. And that creates a major opportunity for them to misplay to our benefit, and kill less-than-optimal people.

Soooo, just scum then, Az?

I mean, seriously. You can be against claiming, but on the basis that we have to be super careful so as not to give too much info to the one remaining scum so he won't know what he has to play around and might then kill some of the "wrong" people is super weak. You are legit scare mongering here.

I am not a land!

Quote from Highroller »

Anyway, yeah, we should DEFINITELY mass claim.

In addition to at least two-thirds of the mafia members clearly not wanting a mass claim, we know that the mafia have roles themselves, and that by forcing them to claim, they must either claim their own role, which we can use to pinpoint their mafia status like we did with Grapefruit21, or they will be forced to make up a role, in which we might catch them in a lie.

I believe we should role claim in reverse numerical order according to the player list at the start of the thread, starting with ganderin_dan and ending with Iso.

I'll just point out that there are at least two rather major differences in circumstances from yesterday vs. today as far as the benefits of a mass claim. Namely that people have had one night to utilize their roles which potentially catches Mafia in lies when the time comes for them to claim roles/actions - we've already seen Iso purportedly attempting this on Az - and that would not have been the case on D1. But more significantly, there's only one Mafia left. We have an 8-1 numerical advantage, and the benefits of coordination would seem at this point to greatly outweigh the risks of what this one lone Mafia might be able to do with that knowledge.

I'm still just saying that from a completely logical perspective, not because it's the "fun" thing to do.

I said that because of the last game I played with Iso. In which he (apparently) glanced at his role PM for 2 seconds before the game started, misunderstood his role, and later counter-claimed a vig. claim when he was not, in fact, the vig.

Quote from Bur »

Vote: rezombied

Slight + for Rezombied here, in as much as it appears to be a "serious" vote from Bur and Mafia are less likely to come right out of the gates non-random-voting their teammates when said teammate hasn't yet done anything too egregious.

Quote from M00S12 »

The "hope Iso is not serious in #54." is weird vote: bur lets go bois!!!

Similarly, first "serious" vote from Moos12 (now Azrael) is a slight + for him.

Neither of these is anything like a solid clear, but, you know, one data point.