The vacuum logic from so many hauling out their trusty clubs that they like to use as a catch all for these types of discussions. These clubs like counterspells are so poorly thought out that by the logic of everyone packing counterspells and that there is always a deck with blue that even the power 9 could be unbanned for commander because they obviously aren't problems if everyone is seemingly packing their deck with 50+ answers. As so many talk and talk of how you just need [X] answer like everyone must obviously have that 100% of the time at the ready. Oh and there is plenty to complain about in Commander, but its honestly hard to get an opinion in here without the squashing.
Counterspells were brought up because it was argued that only white has answers. I just demonstrated that each colour (except red) has answers.
Not one person acknowledges how Purphoros is actually built with cards like Impact Tremors, Panharmonicon, Dictate of the Twin Gods, etc. Mostly because they view Purphoros in a vaccuum and think "oh its only 20 creatures" when actually its more likely to be 10 or 13 creatures to kill a table. As it only takes 1-3 token producer cards to actually kill the table when you got one of those amplifiers out. Then factor that decks that treat their life total as this massive buffer for cards that deal damage to them or cause them to lose life as a cost. If Purphoros only needs 10 or 13 creatures, with one amplifier, then everytime someone does the Shockland to effectively shock themselves and lowered the number of triggers Purphoros needs to kill that player. Which for Purphy, one activation means he just needs 9 or 12 creatures now
That is true. But, presumably, the cards you listed are all easier to deal with since they are not indestructible. If we are talking about 3 cards killing a table, I have to say that 3-card combos are very common. If I have Rakdos, Lord of Riots, Purphoros, God of the Forge, and Ancestral Statue - I win the game. It is because Purphoros is busted? Purphoros can be switched out for Nettle Drone or Impact Tremors... Purphoros is actually the least degenerate part.
I think that if my opponent is able to get Purphoros and a Panharmonicon and 9 creatures out before I can deal with it, they deserve the win. Just as if my opponent has Kikki-Jikki and Pestermite, or Food Chain and Prossh, or 9 mana and Tooth and Nail.
If I were in a meta that faced Purphoros constantly, I would play any of the removal spells that have been mentioned, and Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, and Jester's Cap.
What colours are you playing that you seemingly don't have answers? I would rather spend time helping to tune your decks to this ever-present Purphoros threat than argue.
There are dozens of cards we can list that are hard to interact with and that can win the game. That is not enough to ban a card.
There are several criteria which carry weight in Rules Committee discussions on individual cards:
* Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander. Commander introduces specific structural differences to the game of Magic (notably singleton decks, color restrictions in deckbuilding, and the existence of a Commander). Magic cards not designed with Commander in mind sometimes interact with those elements in ways that change the effective functionality of the card. Cards that have moved too far (in a potentially problematic direction) from their original intent due to this mismatch are candidates for banning. This criterion also includes legendary creatures that are problematic if always available.
* Creates Undesirable Game States. Losing is not an undesirable game state. However, a game in which one or more players, playing comparable casual decks, have minimal participation in the game is something which players should be steered away from. Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere.
* Problematic Casual Omnipresence. Some cards are so powerful that they become must-includes in decks that can run them and have a strongly negative impact on the games in which they appear, even when not built to optimize their effect. This does not include cards which are part of a specifc two-card combination - there are too many of those available in the format to usefully preclude - but may include cards which have numerous combinations with other commonly-played cards.
* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly. Commander is a format devoted to splashy spells and epic plays, but they need to happen at appropriate times. Some acceleration is acceptable, but plays which are epic on turn ten are undesirable on turn three, so we rein in cards capable of generating a lot of mana early given the correct circumstances.
* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Commander is a socially welcoming format with a vast cardpool. These two traits clash when it comes to certain early Magic cards, even if they would possibly be acceptable in their game play. It's not enough that the card is simply expensive. It must also be something that would be near-universally played if available and contribute to a perception that the format is only for the Vintage audience.
Meeting one (or more) criteria on the banlist is not a guarantee of a ban. Some cards fit the description, but either aren't problematic enough to justify a ban, are largely eschewed by the casual community, or possess other redeeming factors. Cards are evaluated by their general use, not simply their worst-case scenario. Similar cards may have just enough difference to put them on opposite sides of the line.
Purphoros does not meet any of this criteria. None of it. I understand why it can be hard to play against, but I have listed more than enough ways in which you can fight against it.
There are so many cards I have so much more difficulty playing against, I find it almost silly to argue this.
Unfortunately, yes, 90% of the answers to Purphoros are white (and most of the others are green or cost a lot of mana).
But you can still beat Purphoros without having a specific answer to him:
Blue can counter spells, and can bounce enchantments.
Black can gain life, or exile Purphoros if devotion ever hits 5. There is also discard and Sadistic Sacrament effects.
Green has afewanswerstoindestructibleenchantments, and can gain life.
It seems to me that Red is the only colour lacking answers (Chaos Warp et al are the only options).
Do you exclusively play mono red? If yes, then I imagine Purphoros is not the biggest problem you have to deal with. If no, then you can have solutions to Purphoros.
This is not like a combo that can't be interacted with. Purphoros attacks your life total 2 damage at a time. I understand how a non-white deck might be hard-pressed to remove Purph from play, but I would hope that your non-white deck can adopt some strategies that would stop Purphoros from being so powerful.
And even if you aren't playing white, there are other players at the table.
Its funny how counterspells answer everything. With that logic nothing should be banned.
Also, how many of those green cards you listed would you call "good" cards? Are any of those cards among cards you naturally include in your green decks you build? Return to Dust is far and above better than all of those green cards listed not to mention most of the white / X spells that were mentioned. I am not saying that green can't access into exile hate for gods, I am saying that they have to specifically pick for that utility rather than those cards being good includes for decks naturally. I get that the top 50 list hasn't been updated recently but I looked at it for kicks and I saw Song of the Dryads from the "answers gods" list and I saw like 8 destroy options with no exile options. Green's destroy effects for artifact / enchantments are good but their exile / tuck / transform effects all have the problem that they are significantly less efficient.
For black, lifegain is a stall measure but its also not something they are particularly great at. Black does have a few good lifegain options but generally other than if you are playing sac aristocrats the number of playable black lifegain options are fairly low. Gary is great for mono black, kokusho is.... ok if you are sac / rez based. Then its Blood Artist (if arristocrats) and from there it falls off quite quickly. I would say black has like.... maybe 5 good lifegain options I can even think of.
I play a mono-black deck, and the truth is that with the huge amounts of mana black makes, Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger, Exquisite blood, Extort, sadistic sacrament (and two other similar effects).... these all become answers to Purphoros. I would not be worried at all.
And again, you don't have to have answers in every deck all the time.. but if everyone has a few answers to an indestructible permanent, then when Purphoros lands someone should be able to deal with him.
Its funny how counterspells answer everything. With that logic nothing should be banned.
I would never say this. I am just saying that blue can deal with whatever "degenerate" token makers people use by countering spells, by bouncing Purphoros, etc.
Why should Purphoros be banned and not any other God? I understand he is hard to remove, but he is removable, and you don't even need to remove him to beat a deck playing Purphoros.
The only card I see banned for reasons that are similar to what you are proposing is Recurring Nightmare. Graveyard hate, Angel of Jubilation and countermagic are the only ways to stop this card. It is the definition of hard to interact with. And yet, I think it is the card that can most be argued to be unbannable.
Purphoros wins when you make 20 creatures. I am okay with that.
Unfortunately, yes, 90% of the answers to Purphoros are white (and most of the others are green or cost a lot of mana).
But you can still beat Purphoros without having a specific answer to him:
Blue can counter spells, and can bounce enchantments.
Black can gain life, or exile Purphoros if devotion ever hits 5. There is also discard and Sadistic Sacrament effects.
Green has afewanswerstoindestructibleenchantments, and can gain life.
It seems to me that Red is the only colour lacking answers (Chaos Warp et al are the only options).
Do you exclusively play mono red? If yes, then I imagine Purphoros is not the biggest problem you have to deal with. If no, then you can have solutions to Purphoros.
This is not like a combo that can't be interacted with. Purphoros attacks your life total 2 damage at a time. I understand how a non-white deck might be hard-pressed to remove Purph from play, but I would hope that your non-white deck can adopt some strategies that would stop Purphoros from being so powerful.
And even if you aren't playing white, there are other players at the table.
Purphoros is good, but doesn't exist in every kind of deck. So, not ubiquitous like Primeval Titan.
40 damage, assuming no life gain, requires 20 creatures entering the battlefield. This is not overpowered. 20 creatures win a lot of games. Replace Purphoros with Coat of Arms and tell me if it changes the outcome. WehavealsogottenalotofanswerstoGodsinrecentyears.
I just don't think this is a real discussion. I know some people dislike purphoros as a general, since it is a pretty linear deck, but he is far from banworthy.
It's not even like Braids, Cabal Minion, which is a commander that stops people from playing.
That is true. But, presumably, the cards you listed are all easier to deal with since they are not indestructible. If we are talking about 3 cards killing a table, I have to say that 3-card combos are very common. If I have Rakdos, Lord of Riots, Purphoros, God of the Forge, and Ancestral Statue - I win the game. It is because Purphoros is busted? Purphoros can be switched out for Nettle Drone or Impact Tremors... Purphoros is actually the least degenerate part.
I think that if my opponent is able to get Purphoros and a Panharmonicon and 9 creatures out before I can deal with it, they deserve the win. Just as if my opponent has Kikki-Jikki and Pestermite, or Food Chain and Prossh, or 9 mana and Tooth and Nail.
If I were in a meta that faced Purphoros constantly, I would play any of the removal spells that have been mentioned, and Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, and Jester's Cap.
What colours are you playing that you seemingly don't have answers? I would rather spend time helping to tune your decks to this ever-present Purphoros threat than argue.
There are dozens of cards we can list that are hard to interact with and that can win the game. That is not enough to ban a card.
Purphoros does not meet any of this criteria. None of it. I understand why it can be hard to play against, but I have listed more than enough ways in which you can fight against it.
There are so many cards I have so much more difficulty playing against, I find it almost silly to argue this.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I would say that Unravel the Aether and World Breaker both make sense in green decks that don't have blue or white.
I play a mono-black deck, and the truth is that with the huge amounts of mana black makes, Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger, Exquisite blood, Extort, sadistic sacrament (and two other similar effects).... these all become answers to Purphoros. I would not be worried at all.
And again, you don't have to have answers in every deck all the time.. but if everyone has a few answers to an indestructible permanent, then when Purphoros lands someone should be able to deal with him.
Its funny how counterspells answer everything. With that logic nothing should be banned.
I would never say this. I am just saying that blue can deal with whatever "degenerate" token makers people use by countering spells, by bouncing Purphoros, etc.
Why should Purphoros be banned and not any other God? I understand he is hard to remove, but he is removable, and you don't even need to remove him to beat a deck playing Purphoros.
The only card I see banned for reasons that are similar to what you are proposing is Recurring Nightmare. Graveyard hate, Angel of Jubilation and countermagic are the only ways to stop this card. It is the definition of hard to interact with. And yet, I think it is the card that can most be argued to be unbannable.
Purphoros wins when you make 20 creatures. I am okay with that.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
But you can still beat Purphoros without having a specific answer to him:
Blue can counter spells, and can bounce enchantments.
Black can gain life, or exile Purphoros if devotion ever hits 5. There is also discard and Sadistic Sacrament effects.
Green has a few answers to indestructible enchantments, and can gain life.
It seems to me that Red is the only colour lacking answers (Chaos Warp et al are the only options).
Do you exclusively play mono red? If yes, then I imagine Purphoros is not the biggest problem you have to deal with. If no, then you can have solutions to Purphoros.
This is not like a combo that can't be interacted with. Purphoros attacks your life total 2 damage at a time. I understand how a non-white deck might be hard-pressed to remove Purph from play, but I would hope that your non-white deck can adopt some strategies that would stop Purphoros from being so powerful.
And even if you aren't playing white, there are other players at the table.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
40 damage, assuming no life gain, requires 20 creatures entering the battlefield. This is not overpowered. 20 creatures win a lot of games. Replace Purphoros with Coat of Arms and tell me if it changes the outcome.
We have also gotten a lot of answers to Gods in recent years.
I just don't think this is a real discussion. I know some people dislike purphoros as a general, since it is a pretty linear deck, but he is far from banworthy.
It's not even like Braids, Cabal Minion, which is a commander that stops people from playing.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers