There is this Black Mirror episode (spoiler) where some people are trapped in a virtual world. It got me thinking about not only trapping opponents, but making them play eternal Magic?
Shahrazad came to mind, and would've been perfect, but unfortunately it's banned.
So I been thinking about what type of Magic can still be played inside a locked game state, that doesn't threaten to break the lock?
Something where the opponents can actually do something. One thing that seems harmless is flipping coins.
So this is a bit of a different spin on the whole idea, but the idea is that you infinitely cast something like Game of Chaos. This will get around any game locked draw states as well.
So it's another layer of complexity, but I'll just lay it out.
You have to be able cast it, so you're going to need to counter your own Neverending Torment to start with. So something like Ertai, Wizard Adept.
When you cast it, it will go onto the bottom, so eventually you'll always draw it again to cast it.
The cool thing is that because of Hive Mind, all your opponents will also make a copy of the spell (Hive Mind is not "cast" for the copies), so you get to play a bunch of Game of Chaos. You know so everybody is going to be included in the games no matter what, just as Richard Garfield intended.
Now who wouldn't want to be flipping coins forever? If anybody else has some harmless sub-games that could be played please let me know?
First, it's an aura, and that's bad news because of March of the Machines. Overwhelming Splendor cannot ever become a creature since a card enchanting another card will implode if it becomes a creature.
It's not enchanting a card, it's enchanting a player, so I doubt it will fall off anything.
Not necessarily. A player might not have the mana they need to disrupt the Wild Ride with a Bane of the Living while the combo is being assembled for example.
The problem is that they can just put mana into their mana pool, in response to what you're doing. The can just follow suit on what your a doing until a Null Rod is on the stack, and you have to then float your mana as well.
If you could clarify, the Mycosynth Lattice + March of the Machines should make all your permanents artifact creatures. So even if you use Opal Acrolith to make them enchantments, I believe they will be "artifact enchantments", and so therefore still be creatures from the March of the Machines?
Please let me know if there is some sequencing or timing I'm missing out on, as it's pretty complicated interactions.
I discuss this in the Salacious Technology section where the Opal Acrolith combo is first introduced.
Mycosynth Lattice's first ability is a continous effect that changes each permanent's card type in layer 4. Opal Acrolith's second ability also creates a continuous effect in layer 4. Because two different continuous effects are being applied in the same layer and because neither are dependent upon the other (which is to say that the order of the effects doesn't matter here), the game determines the order of the effects via timestamps. (The continuous effect generated first will be applied first, and the continuous effect generated second will be applied second.)
For example, if Mycosynth Lattice entered the battlefield first and turned everything into an artifact, and then Opal Acrolith activated its second ability, the Acrolith would gain the artifact card type from Lattice before subsequently overwriting it with its second ability, making the Acrolith an enchantment with no other card types.
If, on the other hand, the order of effects were reversed (perhaps because Mycosynth Lattice was played after Opal Acrolith had already used its second ability), then Opal Acrolith would first overwrite its existing card types, becoming an enchantment, and then become an artifact in addition to its other types, making it an artifact enchantment at the end of the process.
As you can see, the order of the effects matters here. When applied in one direction, the Acrolith becomes an enchantment. When applied in the other direction, the Acrolith becomes an artifact enchantment. For this version of Mr. Bones' Wild Ride, the goal is to have all your Opal Acroliths become artifact enchantments, so they can be preserved by Hanna's Custody and by Guardian Beast.
The most recent Ixalan Comp Rules version of Mr. Bones' Wild Ride orders these effects the other way so that all of Mr. Bones' permanents will be nonartifact enchantments and therefore won't be affected by March of the Machines.
Ha, nice. I'm a nerd I love this sort of stuff.
There is the possibility of working in Overwhelming Splendor as a one sided Humility as that stops morphs I believe?
Because at the end of the day you have to commit your creatures to the board and put Opal Acrolith effects afterwards, so in a real game you would fall victim to a Bane of the Living. I know it's all hypothetical but you would want to structure it, so the very thing you're trying to play around, isn't actually going to get you.
You need to copy the Overwhelming Splendor to all opponents, because the thought experiment would have to assume that all players might have morph creatures / Archfiend of Ifnir.
But this is tricky right as most of these come off as one-for-one and you have to assume any number of opponents.
It might be that Echo Storm is the method to make sure of any number of opponents, by having some infinite with your commander. There are other infinite's with Saheeli, the Gifted and probably Saheeli Rai as well, but this is adding a lot of complexity.
Of course in practicality there is probably likely to be only one opponent with morph creatures (if any), but I see where you are coming from.
Question, if you're casting Mycosynth Lattice and March of the Machines before you do the Opal+Zada+Cytoshape thing, what is stopping your opponent from Bane of the Living in response to anything? In theory with enough mana killing the boards?
Nothing. In an actual game of Magic, opponents could certainly interrupt the Wild Ride as it's trying to be assembled. Doing this isn't considered a solution though. They merely stopped the Ride from ever happening in the first place. The thought experiment is to try and find a way off the Ride after it has already been assembled.
Oh well, you can just cast Dismiss into Dream first, and use something like Hex Parasite to kill off your opponents creatures before you commit anything else to the board. That way you can ping off any morph creatures.
Also on a similar note, Archfiend of Ifnir could get an opponent out of the lock, if they had enough cycling cards in their hand.
So another reason to add the Hex Parasite to be able to kill off creatures first.
[EDIT]
If you could clarify, the Mycosynth Lattice + March of the Machines should make all your permanents artifact creatures. So even if you use Opal Acrolith to make them enchantments, I believe they will be "artifact enchantments", and so therefore still be creatures from the March of the Machines?
Please let me know if there is some sequencing or timing I'm missing out on, as it's pretty complicated interactions.
Question, if you're casting Mycosynth Lattice and March of the Machines before you do the Opal+Zada+Cytoshape thing, what is stopping your opponent from Bane of the Living in response to anything? In theory with enough mana killing the boards?
Again, this isn't that simple. From what I understand, what you're proposing won't work.
Alright then I feel it's possible to remove the Peacekeeper and let people have attacks. That way you can alternate the way you attack each turn, resulting in real decisions.
I can only see the real 'Prison Break' if you remove Peacekeeper is if there is some infect/wither creature or exile on damage, as Privileged Position, Copy Enchantment prevents targeted removing. Avacyn, Angel of Hope will mean creature battles should be without consequence, for you.
I haven't put much effort into trying to circumvent rule 104.4b. What I can say is that it's more difficult to circumvent than it appears to be, and that my modest attempts at doing so were rebuked by the folks in the Magic Rulings section. I can't say for certain whether or not what you're proposing will work. That's above my pay grade. I highly doubt it would be that easy though.
Wait, so they have they said that these are loops that result in draws?
I guess you could add Greater Gargadon as part of it to conclusively solve this problem, as it will mean that you can sacrifice at any time meaning that the loop can be broken, you know if you wanted to The counters won't naturally be removed either as you don't have an upkeep.
04.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
You might be able to introduce a sacrifice creature or something else which would allow you to break the loop. So it might be that as long as you have the means yourself to break it, it might not end in a draw?
Shahrazad came to mind, and would've been perfect, but unfortunately it's banned.
So I been thinking about what type of Magic can still be played inside a locked game state, that doesn't threaten to break the lock?
Something where the opponents can actually do something. One thing that seems harmless is flipping coins.
So this is a bit of a different spin on the whole idea, but the idea is that you infinitely cast something like Game of Chaos. This will get around any game locked draw states as well.
So it's another layer of complexity, but I'll just lay it out.
You have to be able cast it, so you're going to need to counter your own Neverending Torment to start with. So something like Ertai, Wizard Adept.
Rest in Peace will also exile it, so Wheel of Sun and Moon targeting yourself.
When you cast it, it will go onto the bottom, so eventually you'll always draw it again to cast it.
The cool thing is that because of Hive Mind, all your opponents will also make a copy of the spell (Hive Mind is not "cast" for the copies), so you get to play a bunch of Game of Chaos. You know so everybody is going to be included in the games no matter what, just as Richard Garfield intended.
Now who wouldn't want to be flipping coins forever? If anybody else has some harmless sub-games that could be played please let me know?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
The problem is that they can just put mana into their mana pool, in response to what you're doing. The can just follow suit on what your a doing until a Null Rod is on the stack, and you have to then float your mana as well.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
There is the possibility of working in Overwhelming Splendor as a one sided Humility as that stops morphs I believe?
Because at the end of the day you have to commit your creatures to the board and put Opal Acrolith effects afterwards, so in a real game you would fall victim to a Bane of the Living. I know it's all hypothetical but you would want to structure it, so the very thing you're trying to play around, isn't actually going to get you.
You need to copy the Overwhelming Splendor to all opponents, because the thought experiment would have to assume that all players might have morph creatures / Archfiend of Ifnir.
The only cards I can think of for copying enchantments are: Estrid's Invocation, Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator.
But we can assume artifacts as well because of Mycosynth Lattice: Copy Artifact, Echo Storm, Phyrexian Metamorph, Saheeli Rai, Saheeli, the Gifted, Saheeli's Artistry, Sculpting Steel, Stolen Identity.
But this is tricky right as most of these come off as one-for-one and you have to assume any number of opponents.
It might be that Echo Storm is the method to make sure of any number of opponents, by having some infinite with your commander. There are other infinite's with Saheeli, the Gifted and probably Saheeli Rai as well, but this is adding a lot of complexity.
Of course in practicality there is probably likely to be only one opponent with morph creatures (if any), but I see where you are coming from.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Also on a similar note, Archfiend of Ifnir could get an opponent out of the lock, if they had enough cycling cards in their hand.
So another reason to add the Hex Parasite to be able to kill off creatures first.
[EDIT]
If you could clarify, the Mycosynth Lattice + March of the Machines should make all your permanents artifact creatures. So even if you use Opal Acrolith to make them enchantments, I believe they will be "artifact enchantments", and so therefore still be creatures from the March of the Machines?
Please let me know if there is some sequencing or timing I'm missing out on, as it's pretty complicated interactions.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I can only see the real 'Prison Break' if you remove Peacekeeper is if there is some infect/wither creature or exile on damage, as Privileged Position, Copy Enchantment prevents targeted removing. Avacyn, Angel of Hope will mean creature battles should be without consequence, for you.
It seems like Platinum Angel and Abyssal Persecutor stops the need for worrying about combat anyway, and also not sure why you'd need the Solitary Confinement with the above two as well?
I feel like Peacekeeper and Solitary Confinement could be removed.
I'll try to think up Prison Breaks for having combat.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I guess you could add Greater Gargadon as part of it to conclusively solve this problem, as it will mean that you can sacrifice at any time meaning that the loop can be broken, you know if you wanted to The counters won't naturally be removed either as you don't have an upkeep.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
You might be able to introduce a sacrifice creature or something else which would allow you to break the loop. So it might be that as long as you have the means yourself to break it, it might not end in a draw?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith