Like many, I'm excited for the possibilities here. 250 new (to Modern) cards designed or chosen specifically for the format? Can't wait to see the full spoiler for this set.
Also like many, I'm blown away by no reprints of existing Modern cards in dire need of a supply injection; looks like they are banking at the novelty and equity of newer cards to drive the set sales (and they're probably right).
If I had to guess, my instinct is that another supplemental product will release in the Nov-Dec window that contains some number of choice reprints (but isn't an actual Masters set). Wizards knows that printing cards like the enemy fetches will make them money and players happy, plus they need to make up that end-of-year revenue occupied by Masters sets for the past two years.
Me...I'm just excited for old things and call-backs, and especially to not be envious of so many fun cards bypassing my favorite format for a change.
I mean, if it has enemy fetches and only costs $4 instead of $10 or more per pack, it will be a hit no matter what else is in it, right?
As many have pointed out, though, it's hard to imagine an innovation product focusing primarily on desired reprints of existing cards at lower price points. What else innovative besides direct-to-format cards would really excite Modern players specifically?
In TCC's interview with Gavin Verhey today, the question came up about designing and inserting Modern cards in supplemental products bypassing Standard; apparently it's something we shouldn't expect in the near future. Nice to get a confirmation one way or the other, at least. Maybe the poll didn't go so well?
We at least know that they are warm enough to the idea to ask about it, so it's a bit disappointing to know nothing like this is coming soon. On the other hand, if we do get such a set, it's nice to know they don't want to rush it either.
The term "near future" has had an incredibly squishy meaning from WotC. They often backtrack and change their minds, or use the term to play a game of misdirection.
I'm not saying we'll get non-Standard Modern cards any time soon (or at all). But let's consider the source.
I'm quoting this now for relevancy. If you watch that TCC interview with Gavin Verhey (skip to 48:18), his phrasing regarding direct-to-Modern cards is reflective of the effort and considerations to make such a set correctly. I initially inferred from that a sense of reservation, but Gavin is a very good communicator; note earlier in the interview how effortlessly he dances around directly mentioning monetary value when addressing secondary market concerns of aggressive reprints. We know, of course, that he won't directly acknowledge the secondary market's financial value as an influence, but it's how smoothly he was able to address very real concerns while avoiding this that made me take notice on a rewatch.
Now watch the relevant section at 48:18 again, and pay attention to what he says, how he says it, and even the look on his face as he begins to answer that question. It feels more to me as if he's describing something familiar than imagined, if that makes sense. I think he did a good job of sowing just enough apprehension to give us a reason to doubt this is around the corner. Of course, my own biases are probably playing into this, so go study it and see what you think.
The point is, with Blake's hint during the Prof's Fact or Fiction for a Modern-relevant product announcement by the end of this month, as well as these posts from MaRo about how said product will "impact" Modern and how he will be floored if we don't love it...I'd be amazed if it's not the new-to-Modern supplemental set (with enemy fetchlands for good measure). If it is, well, good job Gavin for throwing us off a bit
What I'm trying to say is that trying to serve two masters risks pleasing neither
i'd agree with what you're saying, except there was a recent fairly extensive interview with Gavin Verhey (the 'architect' of many MTG products) and he specifically said that with the removal of Masters sets, they'll be ramping up Modern reprints in ancillary products as their main avenue of servicing the format.
he also noted emphatically that the recent iteration of Commander precons didn't sit well with consumers because of the lack of meaningful reprints, so he said they were going to increase the inclusion of meaningful reprints in commander products.
both these things said in the same interview, and you get a pretty clear picture. It's more likely now that we'll have some decent Modern reprints in these ancillary products than ever before. fetchlands? sure, why not.
(oh and WotC keeps reminding us that it apparently "doesn't consider the secondary market value of cards" when creating products... I guess with their recent challenger decks they have shown to us that they are actually willing to put their methods into practice by including multiple valuable cards in an affordable package. They may continue this widely appreciated attitude with upcoming Commander decks)
In the same interview you're referencing, Gavin specifically stated that fetchlands aren't a good fit for the Commander preconstructed decks. Other ancillary products, sure, because we need them and there's money to be had, but not Commander products.
Didn't Gavin specifically state that Commander precons weren't the right vehicle for fetchland reprints when asked about it by the Prof in the interview?
I'm extremely glad to hear that this product won't ever be released, or that the likelihood of such a product is slim at best.
Whenever cards are "designed" for formats, you get garbage in Legacy like Leovold, Emissary of Trest and True-Name Nemesis.
I absolutely agree with you that TNN and Leovold were design mistakes, and Wizards seems to think so as well:
There was a time at the very beginning [of Commander] when we did make cards like Flusterstorm and Scavenging Ooze to create some Legacy shots and to make the product more appealing. [...] But what we've found is that Commander players don't usually want cards like this (Flusterstorm is an...unusual fit in most Commander decks, to say the least), and that when these cards do hit, it's often because they're incredibly powerful—which usually means they're not the most fun cards. (I'm looking at you, True-Name Nemesis.) Legacy players don't generally want cards like True-Name Nemesis that are unfun in one-on-one added to their formats, anyway. (Which is probably true of most players for most formats!)
Now, when we're designing Commander sets, we try to be very careful when thinking about cards for Eternal formats. Play Design does careful passes to try and make sure everything is safe for Legacy and Vintage. And if we do think there's any chance that a card might show up in Legacy or Vintage, we try to make it something reactive rather than proactive. Those cards have a much lower chance of being an issue; Flusterstorm answers a problem, whereas True-Name Nemesis causes one.
So it seems like they focus on not jamming proactive cards into the eternal formats now, and for the most part that's worked out alright, especially since Play Design has been involved. Two busted cards in three years from supplemental products not designed to target one single format (and prior to a team specifically established to filter such elements out, most recently three years ago) seems like such things are more the exception and not the rule.
Personally, I'd be very excited to see what these teams could come up with when Modern is the focus. I certainly don't want this hypothetical format to overhaul the format, like you, but I believe that good reactive cards and tools for new or underrepresented strategies would be very welcome. They also don't need to make hundreds of brand new cards; existing cards are relatively easier to predict, and there are always current Modern cards in dire need of reprinting. The mix of all of these things could definitely make for a very nice Modern product with time and good people working it, don't you think?
Yeah; his real focus seemed to be on how much more development and testing it would take than a typical ancillary/supplemental product. So not only would they be afraid of unbalancing the format, but the costs would be greater (something several people here pointed out as likely).
I still think the idea is on the table since they were polling about it, and I would love to see what Play Design in particular could come up with. But yeah, if this ever does happen, it will certainly be awhile.
So let's say that Wizards is warm enough to the idea to consider the possiblity, and is looking to reprint older cards into Modern. There are basically three broad categories of cards to choose from:
1. Cards that define eternal formats (Brainstorm, Hymn to Tourach, Force of Will, Daze, Price of Progress, Wasteland)
2. Cards that don't define eternal formats, but are overpowered for Standard, use obscure/obsolete keywords or mechanics, or don't fit current design or color pie philosophies (three-mana land destruction, Shroud, old-style lords or Slivers that also affect opponents' creatures, Regeneration, Astral Slide)
3. Cards that don't fit into either of the categories above, but just haven't been reprinted in a Standard-legal set (Undermine, Prohibit, Terravore)
Group 1 cards are off-limits, as they are the highest risk options to nuke the format. Some Group 3 cards would be okay, but Wizards will save a lot of these to generate excitement in Standard sets for fans of Modern. This leaves Group 2 as the most likely group to get attention for such a set. There are so many cards that fit into this section that Wizards could do sets like this for years and not exhaust the options; underrepresented decks and strategies, tribal boosts, and better answers could all be addressed in a set like this. Heck, even as a Tron player, I'd be thrilled to see cards like Pillage, Vindicate, Recoil, and/or Temporal Spring be Modern legal, and that's just one specific subset of cards.
In TCC's interview with Gavin Verhey today, the question came up about designing and inserting Modern cards in supplemental products bypassing Standard; apparently it's something we shouldn't expect in the near future. Nice to get a confirmation one way or the other, at least. Maybe the poll didn't go so well?
We at least know that they are warm enough to the idea to ask about it, so it's a bit disappointing to know nothing like this is coming soon. On the other hand, if we do get such a set, it's nice to know they don't want to rush it either.
Let's be realistic: If this set does come to pass, it won't be as the savior of high secondary market prices for format staples any more than the Masters sets were. Originally, I thought this hypothetical set wouldn't command a premium price, as it would be directly competing with the Masters sets. Since Wizards has discontinued them for the foreseeable future though, I can't imagine a set targeted primarily at Modern players going for less than $10 a pack.
The real angle this set would have is that it could reinvigorate equity of some older cards, while also offering new cards to Modern/Legacy/Vintage/Commander players. No traditional Masters set could do either of these things, so as long as they stick with what was popular with them (great draft environment, desired format staples), this fresh experience will make the set at least popular enough to justify trying it once.
It is admittedly a bit presumptuous to assume that a survey from last August would directly affect a product release less than a year later. There is a very healthy chance that this supplemental set turns out to be something else. That said, Wizards has been making a fair amount of last-minute changes recently; see how Ultimate Masters went from being a graveyard-themed Masters set to the last of its kind, not to mention any of the tournament structure changes and reversals.
What we do know is that as late as last summer, Wizards was interested in the idea of cards bypassing Standard and making it directly into Modern. My guess is that with the Masters sets going away that this will be the replacement, at least this once. They're likely tweaking the idea of new-to-Modern reprints and entirely new cards into what would have been this summer's themed Masters set. What was the time it took for Wizards to announce themed Masters sets, then change what would have been their second into Ultimate Masters? They announced the themed Masters sets on February 22 of last year, so in less than ten months they had both altered and released the next one. I could very easily see something similar happening here, especially if they had already developed most of the new cards and reprints for the format. New prints for Modern also means new cards for Commander/Legacy/Vintage as well, so there's even more appeal for other formats than traditional Modern Masters sets had.
Even if it doesn't happen this year (again, a distinct possibility), it's really only a matter of time. We know they are interested in the idea, and there's a vacuum to be filled from the exit of traditional Masters sets that taps into the lucrative Modern market. With MaRo's excitement about paving new ground, it's hard to imagine it being a retread of anything we've seen, like another Un-set or Battlebond 2. I do agree that Wizards will design whatever for draft like you mentioned, as they have been consistent with this outside of preconstructed decks. It could be just about anything, but we have more clues pointing toward a Modern-focused set than anything else at the moment, and Wizards has already demonstrated working in the kinds of time tables that would make this possible.
id just like to point out the pretty substantial assumption that the survey results even indicated this as a popular course of action. at this point we are just taking it as fact that everyone wants or wanted something like this to begin with.
You're right; no one knows the results of the survey mentioned in the OP except for Hasbro/Wizards. However, it doesn't have to be "everyone" who wants such a set; Wizards can bank on the popularity of Modern and gauge general interest, so as long as those results weren't surprisingly negative, they likely think they can capitalize on the idea. The fact that they even ran the survey in the first place is a good indication that this idea was more than a fleeting thought.
dont get me wrong, im not saying im not behind the idea. however i also recognize that itd be a significant departure from the norm. as it has been pointed out plenty of times in this thread such a product would/could include cards specifically designed for modern play. we have seen wizards design touch on this over 2018, but it is still different than an fully explicit showcasing of intent that a modern only (and beyond of course) set might contain.
Also true. Again, the fact that they are apparently interested enough to poll about it speaks volumes already. Couple this with the fact that MaRo is excited about a supplemental set that will be "paving new ground" and I think we have a decent chance of getting this set this year. Far from a guarantee, granted, but as several have pointed out, the Modern market looks to be ripe, and they need something else after the now-discontinued Masters sets to really make that revenue up.
i do think a need for such a product will only grow with time, since the gap between standard and modern only grows wider with every new standard set. that said we are still at a point where standard sets are very influential in creating new decks or empowering others in modern; which brings into question why wizards would want to press this particular button now. arguments that it 'would sell well' or make them a lot of money are flimsy at best. they are functionally printing money regardless.
I fully expect that Standard sets will still be the premiere way cards enter the Modern format over time. They want to press the button on this supplemental set now because they will likely have a product that sells well which can also milk equity out of cards that have never been Modern legal, but don't fit with their Standard philosophies. It's not a flimsy argument for a company to look out for their bottom line, and you've got to know a set like this would sell at least well enough to justify creating it.
2. Reprints of cards from eternal formats which had never previously been Modern legal
3. Entirely new cards
I'm looking forward to these two kinds of cards from Modern only sets.
The entire point of this thread is that Wizards polled specifically about a supplemental set that introduces cards into Modern without having them in a Standard-legal set first. This wouldn't be a Modern (or any other) Masters set, as those sets are reprints only and do not change legality for formats (other than Pauper). Coupled with the fact that MaRo recently blogged about a supplemental set that will be "paving new ground" this year, there's a decent chance that we might get such a set this year.
I think there's a few things that will be problematic with the idea of a modern only product, though. If it is a randomized booster, than it is usually made with draft in mind, hence any booster pack product they make for modern is effectively a masters set. If the product is a preconstructed one, how expensive would they have to make it to include notable cards like Cavern of Souls, Liliana of the Veil, and other heavy hitters? I could see them making a modern oriented constructed offering, but it's not going to include the cards people really need to complete their decks. Most people are stuck on the most expensive pieces in modern, not the optional niche cards.
Well they did just reprint the cards you mentioned, but I get your point about reprinting needed expensive format staples. My guess is that we'll see something closer to what Modern Masters 2017 was, but padded with all sorts of fun older cards and a few fresh ideas. The enemy fetchlands are the obvious plants to establish a baseline, and we'll likely see a few more in-demand reprints for the same reason, but mostly we'll get older reprints and new cards that would be a bit too much for Standard.
This is one area the community here has put forth many great ideas for. Think more along the cards that wouldn't immediately slot into top-tier decks; stuff like Pillage and Terravore for Ponza would be fantastic, even if they don't push the deck to be best in the format. Utility cards and answers, especially of CMC 3 or greater, are more reasonable for Modern's speed and precedent. Heck, I'm primarily a Gx Tron player, and I'd still love to see cards like Recoil and Vindicate make it into Modern. Build-arounds like Astral Slide would also be fun to have, even if just to get brewers going to relive some nostalgia for awhile.
What I wouldn't expect? Cards that define Legacy formats that are clearly above curve, like Wasteland and Force of Will, are the riskiest for the stability of Modern. For similar reasons, I'd not hold my breath for any good rituals/mana rocks, cantrips, tutors, or cheap discard. Similarly, anything that can break the game open like Zuran Orb doesn't belong in Modern. I wouldn't expect many cards more valuable than Containment Priest or Baleful Strix either, as that's about as risky as Wizards should get on reprints; the set value should be held up by existing staples in need of reprint, as you've noted. (Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull would work though!)
It well could be, honestly. We have two things to look at regarding this fresh take on supplemental sets: the poll Wizards did last year regarding cards newly legal to Modern that bypass Standard (see thread OP), and the fact that Commander sets as they exist always sell well (despite the drop in card value coupled with the lack of notable reprints in 2018).
Though a Commander overhaul might be possible, I think that Wizards won't risk revamping such a successful product, and there haven't been any indications they have considered this. They have been considering the new-to-Modern supplemental set, though, and since we know the Masters sets are done as we knew them, I feel this set is much more likely than something Commander focused.
If (when) it does happen, I'm wondering what the MSRP will be. This is about the closest thing we will get to Modern Masters, so I'd be surprised if they don't charge the $10 per booster for such a set. Enemy fetches are in need of another reprint, and it's not like Wizards/Hasbro to undercapitalize on these things. This would establish good base equity, and help maintain it for the other included cards.
I also wonder how much would be printed, but of course this is far less important than the set contents.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Like many, I'm excited for the possibilities here. 250 new (to Modern) cards designed or chosen specifically for the format? Can't wait to see the full spoiler for this set.
Also like many, I'm blown away by no reprints of existing Modern cards in dire need of a supply injection; looks like they are banking at the novelty and equity of newer cards to drive the set sales (and they're probably right).
If I had to guess, my instinct is that another supplemental product will release in the Nov-Dec window that contains some number of choice reprints (but isn't an actual Masters set). Wizards knows that printing cards like the enemy fetches will make them money and players happy, plus they need to make up that end-of-year revenue occupied by Masters sets for the past two years.
Me...I'm just excited for old things and call-backs, and especially to not be envious of so many fun cards bypassing my favorite format for a change.
As many have pointed out, though, it's hard to imagine an innovation product focusing primarily on desired reprints of existing cards at lower price points. What else innovative besides direct-to-format cards would really excite Modern players specifically?
Now watch the relevant section at 48:18 again, and pay attention to what he says, how he says it, and even the look on his face as he begins to answer that question. It feels more to me as if he's describing something familiar than imagined, if that makes sense. I think he did a good job of sowing just enough apprehension to give us a reason to doubt this is around the corner. Of course, my own biases are probably playing into this, so go study it and see what you think.
The point is, with Blake's hint during the Prof's Fact or Fiction for a Modern-relevant product announcement by the end of this month, as well as these posts from MaRo about how said product will "impact" Modern and how he will be floored if we don't love it...I'd be amazed if it's not the new-to-Modern supplemental set (with enemy fetchlands for good measure). If it is, well, good job Gavin for throwing us off a bit
So it seems like they focus on not jamming proactive cards into the eternal formats now, and for the most part that's worked out alright, especially since Play Design has been involved. Two busted cards in three years from supplemental products not designed to target one single format (and prior to a team specifically established to filter such elements out, most recently three years ago) seems like such things are more the exception and not the rule.
Personally, I'd be very excited to see what these teams could come up with when Modern is the focus. I certainly don't want this hypothetical format to overhaul the format, like you, but I believe that good reactive cards and tools for new or underrepresented strategies would be very welcome. They also don't need to make hundreds of brand new cards; existing cards are relatively easier to predict, and there are always current Modern cards in dire need of reprinting. The mix of all of these things could definitely make for a very nice Modern product with time and good people working it, don't you think?
I still think the idea is on the table since they were polling about it, and I would love to see what Play Design in particular could come up with. But yeah, if this ever does happen, it will certainly be awhile.
So let's say that Wizards is warm enough to the idea to consider the possiblity, and is looking to reprint older cards into Modern. There are basically three broad categories of cards to choose from:
1. Cards that define eternal formats (Brainstorm, Hymn to Tourach, Force of Will, Daze, Price of Progress, Wasteland)
2. Cards that don't define eternal formats, but are overpowered for Standard, use obscure/obsolete keywords or mechanics, or don't fit current design or color pie philosophies (three-mana land destruction, Shroud, old-style lords or Slivers that also affect opponents' creatures, Regeneration, Astral Slide)
3. Cards that don't fit into either of the categories above, but just haven't been reprinted in a Standard-legal set (Undermine, Prohibit, Terravore)
Group 1 cards are off-limits, as they are the highest risk options to nuke the format. Some Group 3 cards would be okay, but Wizards will save a lot of these to generate excitement in Standard sets for fans of Modern. This leaves Group 2 as the most likely group to get attention for such a set. There are so many cards that fit into this section that Wizards could do sets like this for years and not exhaust the options; underrepresented decks and strategies, tribal boosts, and better answers could all be addressed in a set like this. Heck, even as a Tron player, I'd be thrilled to see cards like Pillage, Vindicate, Recoil, and/or Temporal Spring be Modern legal, and that's just one specific subset of cards.
We at least know that they are warm enough to the idea to ask about it, so it's a bit disappointing to know nothing like this is coming soon. On the other hand, if we do get such a set, it's nice to know they don't want to rush it either.
The real angle this set would have is that it could reinvigorate equity of some older cards, while also offering new cards to Modern/Legacy/Vintage/Commander players. No traditional Masters set could do either of these things, so as long as they stick with what was popular with them (great draft environment, desired format staples), this fresh experience will make the set at least popular enough to justify trying it once.
What we do know is that as late as last summer, Wizards was interested in the idea of cards bypassing Standard and making it directly into Modern. My guess is that with the Masters sets going away that this will be the replacement, at least this once. They're likely tweaking the idea of new-to-Modern reprints and entirely new cards into what would have been this summer's themed Masters set. What was the time it took for Wizards to announce themed Masters sets, then change what would have been their second into Ultimate Masters? They announced the themed Masters sets on February 22 of last year, so in less than ten months they had both altered and released the next one. I could very easily see something similar happening here, especially if they had already developed most of the new cards and reprints for the format. New prints for Modern also means new cards for Commander/Legacy/Vintage as well, so there's even more appeal for other formats than traditional Modern Masters sets had.
Even if it doesn't happen this year (again, a distinct possibility), it's really only a matter of time. We know they are interested in the idea, and there's a vacuum to be filled from the exit of traditional Masters sets that taps into the lucrative Modern market. With MaRo's excitement about paving new ground, it's hard to imagine it being a retread of anything we've seen, like another Un-set or Battlebond 2. I do agree that Wizards will design whatever for draft like you mentioned, as they have been consistent with this outside of preconstructed decks. It could be just about anything, but we have more clues pointing toward a Modern-focused set than anything else at the moment, and Wizards has already demonstrated working in the kinds of time tables that would make this possible.
Also true. Again, the fact that they are apparently interested enough to poll about it speaks volumes already. Couple this with the fact that MaRo is excited about a supplemental set that will be "paving new ground" and I think we have a decent chance of getting this set this year. Far from a guarantee, granted, but as several have pointed out, the Modern market looks to be ripe, and they need something else after the now-discontinued Masters sets to really make that revenue up.
I fully expect that Standard sets will still be the premiere way cards enter the Modern format over time. They want to press the button on this supplemental set now because they will likely have a product that sells well which can also milk equity out of cards that have never been Modern legal, but don't fit with their Standard philosophies. It's not a flimsy argument for a company to look out for their bottom line, and you've got to know a set like this would sell at least well enough to justify creating it.
This is one area the community here has put forth many great ideas for. Think more along the cards that wouldn't immediately slot into top-tier decks; stuff like Pillage and Terravore for Ponza would be fantastic, even if they don't push the deck to be best in the format. Utility cards and answers, especially of CMC 3 or greater, are more reasonable for Modern's speed and precedent. Heck, I'm primarily a Gx Tron player, and I'd still love to see cards like Recoil and Vindicate make it into Modern. Build-arounds like Astral Slide would also be fun to have, even if just to get brewers going to relive some nostalgia for awhile.
What I wouldn't expect? Cards that define Legacy formats that are clearly above curve, like Wasteland and Force of Will, are the riskiest for the stability of Modern. For similar reasons, I'd not hold my breath for any good rituals/mana rocks, cantrips, tutors, or cheap discard. Similarly, anything that can break the game open like Zuran Orb doesn't belong in Modern. I wouldn't expect many cards more valuable than Containment Priest or Baleful Strix either, as that's about as risky as Wizards should get on reprints; the set value should be held up by existing staples in need of reprint, as you've noted. (Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull would work though!)
Though a Commander overhaul might be possible, I think that Wizards won't risk revamping such a successful product, and there haven't been any indications they have considered this. They have been considering the new-to-Modern supplemental set, though, and since we know the Masters sets are done as we knew them, I feel this set is much more likely than something Commander focused.
If (when) it does happen, I'm wondering what the MSRP will be. This is about the closest thing we will get to Modern Masters, so I'd be surprised if they don't charge the $10 per booster for such a set. Enemy fetches are in need of another reprint, and it's not like Wizards/Hasbro to undercapitalize on these things. This would establish good base equity, and help maintain it for the other included cards.
I also wonder how much would be printed, but of course this is far less important than the set contents.