KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I can understand that, and if you're town, I apologize. The way I planned to solve was to set up opportunities that I thought scum might find enticing (but not obviously so) and see how each of you responded to those. It's hard to state that without putting scum on their guard.
Your plan was to set traps? How can you be sure it's scum jumping on it and not town?
Quote from Cantrip »
Do you find this alignment indicative, or do you just like it?
It's AI I think. She's putting it into a new frame of reference to understand it better for the purpose of solving the game.
Quote from Cantrip »
So this was one of my situations (I wouldn't go so far as to call them "traps"; they're more like "mindset checks"). I led off with a line that hinted at Jey's behavior being more scummy than townie ("A slew of sins *could* be hidden behind the defense of 'stream-of-consciousness posting'."), then asked your opinion to see if you parroted my lead-in sentiment or pushed in the other direction. I would have expected scum!Killjoy to parrot (probably lightly and/or with a caveat). I mostly like your response, but I note that there's a caveat ("in a vacuum"). If you're scum, I'd like to know post-game if it was obvious what I was doing.
They are traps. Not just calling them what they are is just trying to soften the language to make it seem less malevolent.
I'm recalling you saying you were too obvious in this question about streamposting but I can't find it. Blah.
Quote from Cantrip »
If she's scum, I see her going the "who, little ol' me" innocence route, with newb card plays, general spewing, and the kind of pure posting that I'm seeing. Pure posting is hard to fake, though.
I agree. And that's why I think you're scum, because she's likely town.
Quote from Cantrip »
Actually, I saw some fearmongering ("oh gosh, it's going to be so easy to lose/this is going to be so hard").
Ok.
Quote from Cantrip »
This was another mindset check, because I was very much getting a "having fun" vibe from Jey and a "not having fun" vibe from you. It's not a strong indicator for me, but I think this makes it a little more likely you're scum.
To Both of You: I welcome the opportunity to have this filter applied to my own play to see how well it may gauge alignment in general; do you feel I've been excited about this game or more lackluster?
I usually get a 'having fun' vibe from you, but you can never post because free time.
Quote from Cantrip »
@Killjoy: Convince me you're town.
I'm... not gonna play that game with you.I don't think you'd ask this if you were town. You'd still be doing things to try to solve my slot.
@Killjoy: Scum!you just has to sit there and wait for Jey to vote me, so I don't expect you to post. This is me calling you out. Town would post, so regardless of your alignment, get back in here and interact.
I'm sorry I didn't get back sooner, but I was at D&D. If you're still up I'm willing to talk.
I kinda wanna wait to vote to see if I just lose because I was wrong about Jey, but I'll vote when I wake up tomorrow I think.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
FOSes preserve the instinct to vote while at the same time not putting any risk on ending the game accidentally. It's not AS telling as votes but we really can't afford votes. I guess in a game this size it doesn't matter THAT much but still. It's something to consider.
Ok, but...like, let's say I FOS'd you in 17 because I didn't feel like you were contributing much (I *did* feel that way). Then this post I un-FOS you because you contributed (I also feel this way, but I definitely need more from you). Either a) I include my reasoning, in which case my suspicion is already on record and can be pointed back to without relying on FOS's, or b) I don't include my reasoning, in which case my FOS is near worthless. Either way, the FOS itself doesn't actually DO anything.
Your suggestion feels like you're trying to suggest something that sounds townie, but in reality doesn't help. There's a chance that this comes from town, but it makes me raise an eyebrow.
The point of the FOSes was to maintain as close to a standard mafia game as I could. Obviously the mechanics of this game will impose restraints on the players, perhaps limiting our ability to read each other. The most obvious of which was the lack of ability to vote. So I sought to rectify that.
Quote from Cantrip »
Quote from Killjoy »
Also. Hm. @Jey/Cantrip: How do you plan to solve this game?
I'll get back to you on that.
I dislike this. The intent of the question was for you to answer immediately, not giving you time to think of what answer I'd find to be 'correct' but instead answering quickly, and therefore likely honestly. You've taken too long now and therefore the answer probably tells me nothing about your alignment, which annoys me.
Anyway, to answer your question Killjoy, I posted that because I was answering your question and explaining how I felt.
Mmm. What about the bit about the games? What was going through your head when going off on that tangent?
Quote from Jey »
Another idea: This game might be flavorless, but that's where I excel; My imagination. Let's add some flavor.
We're 3 robbers going on an elaborate, high-stakes heist and we find that our equipment has been tampered with and collectively rule that someone is planning on double cross us. Now, without any physical evidence whatsoever, have to figure out who the double-crosser is and kill them for justice or whatever. How do we do that? So the double-crosser might take two routes, try to be quiet and see if an innocent is suspicious about the other innocent and jump on that wagon, or they could start the discussion and be the first to point a finger and hopes to sway an innocent with influence. There are many inbetweens this scenario has too.
As an innocent, I need to see who is more motivated to get someone killed than someone who is motivated to find out who is screwing their team over. So, there's the factors of the heist itself and its rewards to consider in this hypothetical but not in this mafia game, so I can't appeal to certain emotions of guilt or greed. Maybe I would provoke reactions and analyze them.
Hm. I kinda like this. You seem to be framing the game in your own reference then using your tools to apply logic to it. It reads as natural. (It also reminds me of a Brady Bunch episode where Jan had trouble with maths, but then when it was reframed in terms of money she was able to do it quickly and awesomely. Sometimes people just need to reframe questions in their own terms to get a handle on them).
Quote from Jey »
I've been thinking about this and typing bits here and there at work but I have nothing better than "Read what they're saying and point my gun at whoever I feel worse about". That's it. I would need to see some reasoning and see that motivation to find the double-crosser and hope for the best. That seems... so *****ty though. Whoever I feel worse about. That's the best I got.
I've found it's easier to find town than scum. Town are trying to solve alignments, trying to figure out the unknown elements of the game. Scum are trying to lynch someone, which takes a few forms. They could be holding back and sitting firmly on the fence so they can come down on whatever side they need to. They could also pocket one of the two town while throwing slime at the other one to try and get the other town to vote with the scum. The former seems closest to what's going on here but I don't have any reads on that front.
And THATS why I look for town.
@Killjoy: Do you think "stream-of-consciousness" posting is more indicative of town or scum? Why?
In a vacuum, town by far. Scum like to filter themselves and that's hard to do while also looking natural while streamposting.
Question for you: In the world where scum!Jey exists, what is her game? How is she trying to win as scum?
Quote from Cantrip »
Actually, I *did* find it somewhat scummy. I asked a VERY open-ended question ("do you see what I see"), which I think to the average town mindset would ring some alarm bells. He didn't question it, though; instead, he listed two possibly scummy things (playing the newb card, excessive nervousness), then added a caveat. It felt quite possibly like scum thinking they had found an "in" to paint someone scummy (while "following" someone else's lead), but also with a hedge in case the response was poorly received.
I disagree that it should have raised alarm bells, since there was something I did see with the post. I thought you saw it too.
Do you disagree with my assessment of it?
Quote from Cantrip »
New topic (not to say we shouldn't continue the above discussion, too): Which alignment, town or scum, do each of you enjoy playing more? For me, I *love* the challenge of a 3rd party, but out of the two basic alignments, I think I prefer town just a little more. Probably because the victory of sousing out the informed minority when I'm one of the uninformed feels like more of a challenge than being deceitful and fooling the uniformed. But on the flip side, I feel like I have more freedom to be creative when I'm scum, so they're pretty evenly balanced for me.
Town more than scum, third party probably most (though I've had one chance at it). Town tries to solve puzzles while scum has a team to not let down.
I currently think it's Cantrip. Jey's posts are just so pure.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So what can we talk about? What I think we need to do is look for someone who's clearly motivated to try and just get a vote to happen rather than figure out who the right person to vote is. The scum instantly win as soon as a towny votes someone anyone who isn't them and they have a little udner a week to get that done.
How can we protect ourselves from the wool over our eyes and spot that kind of behavior? What are some obvious tells of someone forcing a vote instead of scumhunting? I feel like I've learned almost nothing in the 5 times I've played this game
This games gonna be hard. Breaking out of RVS is hard enough in a 12 player game, and this is 3 players.
My strategy is just keep talking because someone will say something telling at some point. How do you know it's telling? Look at the intent of the post.
Like, I'm looking at your initial post where you lay out your ineptitude at mafia, and I'm asking myself why.
Actually, I'll ask you. Why did you make that post? (post 6)
Talking theory with us is GERNERALLY gonna be useless in a game of unknown alignments, so for 2 of us we won't be able to trust it.That said, I don't have an alternative.
@KJ:
• What analysis do FOS's actually lend themselves to in a game like this? No flips, no wagons...how are you going to use FOS's to determine anything?
• If Jey really *had* come in and voted one of the two of us in their first post, why would that have made you angry?
• Do you see what I see in Jey's #6?
@Eco: Did you realize that your "Feral Octogenarians" announcement listed KJ as being on that team instead of Iso?
FOSes preserve the instinct to vote while at the same time not putting any risk on ending the game accidentally. It's not AS telling as votes but we really can't afford votes. I guess in a game this size it doesn't matter THAT much but still. It's something to consider.
If Jey had come in with a vote on one of us, I would have been mad because it would either A) End the game if you're scum, B) lead to the stupid endgame where scum and town are crossvoting and one person is confirmed.
A is bad for obvious reasons. B is bad because it's not a game anymore. It's just a slapfight between the two voters about why the other is scum and its just... less fun. Mafia is a social game and this eliminates part of that.
As far as #6 goes... I see a few things. Newb card despite having played 7 games plus having a chat with experianced players to help with her reads if she needs. Which makes her nervousness a little excessive. I'd like to explore a bit more though because I would prefer a town read on one slot to a scum read. Its harder for scum to do town things than it is town to do scum things.
Also. Hm. @Jey/Cantrip: How do you plan to solve this game?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I;m also leaving shortlyish for D&D. I won't be available tomorrow night because work. I might be available that morning for a few hours. (You're East Coast I think so that'll be early afternoon for you.)
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So, first thing: votes should probably be FOSes instead. It still allows you to 'vote' as you normally would (allowing the analysis that goes along with that) and doesn't actually lead to anyone's quick and untimely death.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Your plan was to set traps? How can you be sure it's scum jumping on it and not town?
It's AI I think. She's putting it into a new frame of reference to understand it better for the purpose of solving the game.
They are traps. Not just calling them what they are is just trying to soften the language to make it seem less malevolent.
I'm recalling you saying you were too obvious in this question about streamposting but I can't find it. Blah.
I agree. And that's why I think you're scum, because she's likely town.
Ok.
I usually get a 'having fun' vibe from you, but you can never post because free time.
I'm... not gonna play that game with you.I don't think you'd ask this if you were town. You'd still be doing things to try to solve my slot.
I'm sorry I didn't get back sooner, but I was at D&D. If you're still up I'm willing to talk.
I kinda wanna wait to vote to see if I just lose because I was wrong about Jey, but I'll vote when I wake up tomorrow I think.
will fullpost tomorrow though. Work was exhausting. I can answer individual questions though. Just nothing involving quoting.
I dislike this. The intent of the question was for you to answer immediately, not giving you time to think of what answer I'd find to be 'correct' but instead answering quickly, and therefore likely honestly. You've taken too long now and therefore the answer probably tells me nothing about your alignment, which annoys me.
Mmm. What about the bit about the games? What was going through your head when going off on that tangent?
Hm. I kinda like this. You seem to be framing the game in your own reference then using your tools to apply logic to it. It reads as natural. (It also reminds me of a Brady Bunch episode where Jan had trouble with maths, but then when it was reframed in terms of money she was able to do it quickly and awesomely. Sometimes people just need to reframe questions in their own terms to get a handle on them).
I've found it's easier to find town than scum. Town are trying to solve alignments, trying to figure out the unknown elements of the game. Scum are trying to lynch someone, which takes a few forms. They could be holding back and sitting firmly on the fence so they can come down on whatever side they need to. They could also pocket one of the two town while throwing slime at the other one to try and get the other town to vote with the scum. The former seems closest to what's going on here but I don't have any reads on that front.
And THATS why I look for town.
In a vacuum, town by far. Scum like to filter themselves and that's hard to do while also looking natural while streamposting.
Question for you: In the world where scum!Jey exists, what is her game? How is she trying to win as scum?
I disagree that it should have raised alarm bells, since there was something I did see with the post. I thought you saw it too.
Do you disagree with my assessment of it?
Town more than scum, third party probably most (though I've had one chance at it). Town tries to solve puzzles while scum has a team to not let down.
I currently think it's Cantrip. Jey's posts are just so pure.
My strategy is just keep talking because someone will say something telling at some point. How do you know it's telling? Look at the intent of the post.
Like, I'm looking at your initial post where you lay out your ineptitude at mafia, and I'm asking myself why.
Actually, I'll ask you. Why did you make that post? (post 6)
Talking theory with us is GERNERALLY gonna be useless in a game of unknown alignments, so for 2 of us we won't be able to trust it.That said, I don't have an alternative.
FOSes preserve the instinct to vote while at the same time not putting any risk on ending the game accidentally. It's not AS telling as votes but we really can't afford votes. I guess in a game this size it doesn't matter THAT much but still. It's something to consider.
If Jey had come in with a vote on one of us, I would have been mad because it would either A) End the game if you're scum, B) lead to the stupid endgame where scum and town are crossvoting and one person is confirmed.
A is bad for obvious reasons. B is bad because it's not a game anymore. It's just a slapfight between the two voters about why the other is scum and its just... less fun. Mafia is a social game and this eliminates part of that.
As far as #6 goes... I see a few things. Newb card despite having played 7 games plus having a chat with experianced players to help with her reads if she needs. Which makes her nervousness a little excessive. I'd like to explore a bit more though because I would prefer a town read on one slot to a scum read. Its harder for scum to do town things than it is town to do scum things.
Also. Hm. @Jey/Cantrip: How do you plan to solve this game?
Feel free to talk a lot. I like to but I can't talk in a vacuum (and not just because there's no air)
What did your post say that you erased?
This should be an interesting game.