Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, Flux Channeler and to a lesser extent Karn's Bastion don't feel like they help the game plan much. These cards favor a more grindy game plan, but this deck is very explosive rather than cantripping off. I still have a little bit of faith in Karn's Bastion but I find it usually functions as a very mana intensive version of Forge of Heroes.
I agree with all this.
I'm replacing Saheeli, Sublime Artificer with Chandra, Acolyte of Flame when I get a copy. The reality is that 9/10 times you'll have a spells to cast that are more efficient to your game plan than using Karn's Bastion, and that means 9/10 games you'd just prefer it to be an Island
I need to test Flux Channeler a bit more before I decide on it.
I'll give Planebound Accomplice a try. Pity has to be from hand (not command zone) otherwise it would be busted really.
My friends are trying Narset's Reversal among their decks at the moment, so I'll wait to get generally feedback. I've been telling them "I bet it's not as good as you think" talk. But you always remember the times that it did something really good, and not the other times when it would have just been better to be a counterspell.
Force of Negation has been pretty nice. I think this is one of the decks that doesn't see much benefit from it because we don't have the ability to go off on our opponents turns. The low end is that it's a Negate for one more blue mana on your turn, but the high end is that it's a second copy of Force of Will. I might end up cutting this one after I play with it some more.
Yeah I have not gotten on the Force of Negation band wagon yet, as I normally don't use my counterspells for control, rather to protect my own game plans. It's just how most of my decks are built as very combo orientated. But the more competitive the meta, the more Force of Negation is going to win you games.
For M20 spoilers, there's some cool cards. Chandra, Novice Pyromancer is really good just due to the fact that she costs R but makes RR, makes her one of the easiest walkers to make infinite mana with in a loop, and can burn your opponents out with her minus ability as well. I think Chandra, Acolyte of Flame is too narrow to be useful. Drawn from Dreams is looking pretty tempting to me, but I also love card draw. Flood of Tears being sorcery bums me out a bit, but the high end of this is pretty nuts. Repeated Reverberation seems better than I initially thought, I was originally thinking about it as a means to get extra value off my loyalty abilities, but then I realized it's a Time Stretch if you use it on an extra turn spell. I usually don't like duplicate cards, but this seems like it could be useful, and the low end for us is paying 4 mana to copy Will's minus ability and draw four extra cards with it. Manifold Key is another version of Voltaic Key but it doesn't go infinite as well, making its primary use to untap The Chain Veil or rocks to climb a mana ladder.
I actually like Chandra, Acolyte of Flame. Sure the elemental tokens don't do anything, but the loyalty counter for Rowen, allow you to ultimate over two turns, which quite frankly is exactly what I want.
The casting instant and sorcery from graveyard isn't probably going to be used that much, but a game where you have a Savor the Moment is going to be great, and there are a few cantrip type cards to get value from, bot much, but some. Definitely keen to try her.
I believe, based off what you've said, you misread a couple of cards you talked about. Chandra, Acolyte of Flame can't provide blockers, as the tokens are sacrificed at end-step. And Repeated Reverberation doesn't copy two things, it copies one thing twice. So using Will after it would draw 6 cards and reduce costs by 6. Chandra looks worse without being able to provide blockers, but I don't think your evaluation of Repeated Reverberation changes much.
Edit: Also, Chandra, Novice Pyromancer's mana ability is a minus, which makes it worse as well, but still a strong candidate.
Good points. Yeah I actually like Repeated Reverberation a little worse now that I read it properly. There are just more consistent cards you can play.
Not getting the tokens to stick is a little worse with Chandra, Novice Pyromancer, but I'm still going to try her, she speeds up the Rowen plan which is key.
I think the main thing to remember is that copying activated abilities of the planeswalkers, doesn't add additional loyalty counters, so it's probably not quite as good as it first looks.
Hypothetically let's look at some scenarios. I have to go into deep conceptualization for cards like this because they are really hard to evaluate.
Let's say we have Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Will Kenrith in play with Repeated Reverberation in hand.
You could Will [-2] for cost reduction and cast Repeated Reverberation for RR.
Now if you use Chandra, Torch of Defiance mana ability you'd get RRRR. Now you can cast Rowen with this mana and cost reduction.
So far this hasn't gotten us any further that just using Will and Chandra normally.
So you'd need another spell to really get a pay off. The best would be a extra turns card, say a 5 mana one, so that would only mean needing an additional 1UU available. This would give you two extra turns, and a guaranteed Rowen ultimate.
It is important to look at other spells you'd really benefit from this as well, Mystic Confluence, Tezzeret's Gambit, Fact or Fiction. With Brainstorm, Preordain, Ponder to a lesser extent.
That's not that many, copying creature kill cards like Chain Reaction or Evacuation doesn't have any benefits from double ups.
That's why I don't put much focus on Will Kenrith emblem for this deck build because it's not much of a big instant and sorcery deck.
It does seem like you can get some great upsides, but as I've pointed out you really need to have "action" cards as well to benefit. If it added loyalty counters, then I'd say yes, but at this stage I think it's the type of card that only rewards you when you already have some pretty good advantages anyway, i.e you have an extra turn card or an additional planeswalker in play. I tend to rate cards on their ability to get you back into a game when you are behind, and I don't think this does that?
Actually Chandra, Novice Pyromancer is probably just a straight up replacement for Chandra, Bold Pyromancer as I've literally never used the [-3] or [-10] on her before. Sure the [+2] can be a win condition with the damage, but there are plenty of walkers that have the actual way to finish opponents.
It is a shame that Chandra, Novice Pyromancer other abilities are next to useless, but as I say I only use the [+1] RR anyway.
I've also been thinking about Chandra, Acolyte of Flame as sooooooooo much of the game plan is to ultimate Rowen.
If you have her in play already and then cast Rowen, then that means that you can look to ultimate Rowen the following turn, as Chandra, Acolyte of Flame can add two loyalty counters over those two turns.
She also can create a blocker to provide protection for herself (or other walkers). The [-2] ability isn't amazing with the number of targets in the deck, but it's does have a chance at providing value, especially if I get to do back-to-back Savor the Moment.
The other card that has come out of Core 2020 is Flood of Tears. I really think this card is perfect in this deck as a tempo card, or especially if your behind/losing.
With Will Kenrith cost reduction it could only cost 2UU and then you can look to put Will Kenrith back into play immediately. With so many of the permanents in this deck being mana rocks, you should be able to be setup almost exactly as you were before you cast the spell.
If you're really lucky you get to put Omniscience, or even Ugin, the Ineffable which might allow you to play out your artifact mana again, and just hard cast Will Kenrith again.
Planebound Accomplice is looking a like a sure thing as a certified combo with Cloudstone Curio.
My question is going to be how good is it without the Cloudstone?
If you're stringing together a big turn, then you can use it to generate small amounts of mana, via putting the planeswalkers into play off it. But this is a big price to pay for like an additional mana, at the expense of killing a planewalker resource.
If you're desperate for draw then you can convert R into a draw ability off a walker.
You can use the ability at the end of an opponents end step, to have more mana in your turn, and they would be sacrificed at the end of your turn. So that's an additional little trick if you were looking to load up a big turn.
Honestly I'll have to test it out to see how much I'd use it without the Cloudstone Curio.
The 1/3 body is pretty deece at small-ball blocking through those early turns.
Thanks a lot guys. It is a lot of work going from a personal thread over to a primer that passes scrutiny, but to anybody thinking about it for their own favorite deck, then I highly recommend taking the time to do it. Being able to share knowledge is one of my greatest strengths and joy, so I really enjoy the process.
May I point out that with Narset's Reversal and Will's emblem, you effectively gain control of all opponents spells?
Cast reversal,target their spell, use the copy from the emblem to target your reversal, bounce the original copy to hand and use the new copy to target your opponents spell.
In addition,you could use it to make all of your own spells recursive,including extra turn spells (getting around Karn's Temporal Sundering's exhile clause). Multiple emblems could also add redundancy against counter-spells and shenanigans
Welcome to the forums That is a nifty trick copying Narset Reversal than sending itself back to hand. I guess you can do the same thing with Unsubstantiate and Remand, returning both opponents spell and then use a copy to return these back to hand, to have further uses out of them.
So taking after the updated primer you made (which is amazingly helpful btw. Thank you!), this is my list so far for my version of this deck. Due to not having a lot to pull off the planeswalker combos, I decided to run a more spell focused version of the deck.
I am in need of 3 other cards for this deck, but sadly do not have the funds to get stuff like Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Plus, it may be me, but I feel my mama curve might be a bit too high and in need of being lowered.
Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated! Thank you!
I do feel that your ability to cast your spells is going to be difficult.
You have 8 discard outlets to setup the graveyard, and 9 cards that use your graveyard as a resource.
With Will [-2] cost reduction, it's almost always the colored portion of spells which is the bottleneck for casting multiple spells.
With this in mind there are a few spells I personally don't like; Counterflux, Mission Briefing, Narset's Reversal, Capsize.
The double blue on them means that they are going to be less efficient in the long run. Even Disallow would much prefer to be a simple Negate or Delay for the purposes of color management.
I get it, they could be quite fun in the right situation, but on the whole they are situational.
Spells like Finale of Promise and Electrodominance are good because even though they use double colored mana, they pay for the colored portion of other spells, making them efficient with Will [-2].
You want everything to provide colored mana as much as possible. The Paradox Engine is looking a little weak at the moment as you'll always find the bottleneck is colored mana as I said, and your threshold of artifact mana is a bit too light.
Look to add Coalition Relic, Firemind Vessel, Coldsteel Heart.
Great thread here, darrenhabib! I've been desperately trying to find a deck to fit the twins into, but its been very hard to find a place where they fit well. I've never been a fan of the more popular Superfriend jam-everything-and-a-Doubling-Season decks, but this looks like a lot fun and I think I may just kick around building a similar list!
Glad you enjoyed it. Yeah the most common mistake with a planeswalker themed builds is that people just play way too many of them. It's a fine balance between opportunity to get recursive value out of them or just getting them killed for once off value.
Alright I've given this thread the proper primer treatment. It's more informative about potential card options and has the general sections you might be used to with official primers.
No worries on the vagueness, I understand you don't want to put your thoughts out while you're working on something as big as a full set review. I look forward to reading it. You and I have a lot of similar deck building habits and tastes, so I bet you've got some good stuff cooking up for Ugin.
When I deck build, I have what I call "flex slots" which are the non-essential cards that I rotate in and out of the deck or meta decisions. Example for this deck is the slots I used for defenders like Locust God or Meishin, or slots for the non-essential PWs like Tamiyo or Jaya. Meta decisions for example, cards like Reins of Power and Meishin, the Mind Cage are almost useless for me because my playgroup doesn't have a lot of creature based decks in it, or things like Arcane Lighthouse for groups that have a lot of hexproof. I'm hoping you include a short list of cards like that when you update this primer, just to give some ideas for customization and adaptation in the deck without jeopardizing the game plan too heavily.
Did you ever give Desolate Lighthouse a try? It felt pretty good to me when I got going with it just because I love card draw, but I don't like colorless lands very much in this deck.
When I do a card choices section, I'll make sure I add meta specific changes that could be made. I'll also include potential flex slots as well, as cards can do similar things, but might just be better for your playgroups.
I can't say that I've tried Desolate Lighthouse. As you say colorless lands have to be premium. If I had a few more use graveyard as a resource cards then I could see it being better, but I feel like I almost always have something I could cast rather be patient with the card filtering.
I've already done a review of potential cards for my Aminatou primer which also has a planeswalker theme, so covered blue elements, and obviously black and white as well.
Some of the cards I'll be discussing will be sort of repeated statements from that review.
I have to say that War of the Spark really is a great set, I think even under all the hype, it's still probably being underrated for just how special this set is among Magics history. It's often that it takes a while for people to catch on what they have in front of them.
Potential includes
Ugin, the Ineffable static ability has to be weighed up with how many artifacts you are playing, and just what you intentions are with cost reduction like that?
His ability to provide protection with 2/2 creature tokens, and then also be able to provide card advantage by potentially putting those cards into your hand, is very appealing.
I used to play all the other colorless planeswalkers, Karn, Scion of Urza, Karn Liberated, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, in the initial versions of this deck, but I found that I was more interested in ones that specifically have draw elements and of course mana elements. I essentially found that removal wasn't really needed, which Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon are more specialized in.
Sure Ugin, the Spirit Dragon can give you draw if ultimate, but you have to build up to that, so it's only really good if you're already ahead, where walkers that give draw straight away can help when you're behind. Karn, Scion of Urza I found the card advantage was just a bit slow, being every other turn you might get something truly useful. However he did provide protection with token creatures.
The reason that I was so interested in the colorless walkers, is because I wanted combo with Cloudstone Curio and Will Kenrith [-2] cost reduction ability, to give you infinite bounces between walkers that provide enough mana.
Alright so Ugin, the Ineffable does have essentially have a mana ability as I have 19 artifacts in the deck, and there is a lot of draw, so I feel that it would get use on the colorless cost reduction.
It also provides protection and card advantage, albeit not immediately as you need the creature to die, but I feel that this is just the best of the colorless planeswalkers for this deck which does provide removal for a colored permanent as well.
Not being able to remove artifacts could be a big downside, but it's mainly the static and [+1] ability that I'm interested in. Plus it costs less than Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon which helps.
Flux Channeler. I'll be careful not to hype this card too much. I've played Inexorable Tide in this deck, and honestly it was pretty awful. At five mana it was being played out too late, or in a spot where you'd prefer to be doing something else, like dealing with opponents creatures, or simply playing out a planeswalker.
The thing with getting triggers on casting spells, is that you need to be casting multiple spells a turn. I just found that taking a turn off to proliferate for one, meaning a single spell follow up, was a bit weak.
However Flux Channeler is cheaper to cast, and represents an immediate blocker for your planeswalkers.
I think it will be worth testing. It does die to own mass creature removal spells, and would definitely be better with more cantrip type cards like Gitaxian Probe, Serum Visions, and if you can afford the slots more artifact mana like Mox Amber, Chrome Mox, Mox Opal, to name a few.
So I'm not expecting it to be amazing with my current configuration, but I feel like it could be worth it.
Firemind Vessel I think could be a staple for multi-colored decks. Getting an artifact that fixes you on color I think is really very good in commander. Sure it comes into play tapped, so a lot of people will think it's too slow, but I think the design is just fine given the upside.
Because I'm running Paradox Engine and my spells need a lot of the Izzet colors, I've been careful to include artifacts that provide colored mana with, Izzet Signet, Coalition Relic, Izzet Locket, Gilded Lotus, Coveted Jewel.
Now I will point out that trying to use Saheeli Rai ability to copy Firemind Vessel will not work as it'll come into played tapped, so that's a downside.
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer might be another bit of a trap like Flux Channeler in that you imagine that it'll build up an incredible amount of value, but the reality is that you have to cast quite a few spells to really make it worthwhile.
If you cast her and then on the following turns only cast a couple of a cards, then two 1/1s are not all that impressive. But she does cost three mana, so she might be able to provide just enough protection to save a planeswalker or two from dying, which is important.
So for me the deciding factor is just how good is her [-2] ability, and what exactly can it do in the deck? Now it doesn't create a token, you actually have to have an artifact in play for it to become a copy of something else.
Honestly when you look what this is doing, it's not like you can do broken things.
You can make some of your cheaper artifacts into Gilded Lotus or Coveted Jewel.
The thing is that the combo artifacts like, The Chain Veil, Paradox Engine, Cloudstone Curio, are either legendary or don't really work in multiples anyway.
You could copy Rings of Brighthearth for more value, but I find that I'm more mana bottlenecked a lot of the time to use an secondary Rings.
If you were really desperate you can play out a Nevinyrral's Disk and make an already artifact in play a copy so that you can have a untapped version to get immediate use. But that's a lot of resources you're putting into that.
I'm really on the fence on this one, I think I'll need to test it to figure out if it's good or not for the deck.
Spark Double is an auto include in my Aminatou Superfriends deck as I can get infinite with it. But in this deck it's not quite so clear. Because it's a creature it doesn't benefit from Will [-2] cost reduction, meaning you can't quite get the same flow of chaining multiple planeswalkers.
However if all you plan on doing is copying Will Kenrith, then it's still a really great strategy. Will is such a beast, that having the ability to negate 4 creatures a turn, or draw 4 cards and cost reduction by 4 is clearly amazing.
Karn's Bastion does essentially tie up 5 mana to get an activation, but for a land slot I think it's worth it when you might want a mana sink, that can accelarate the main plan of ultimating Rowan.
Honorable mentions
Emergence Zone could actually be really great, especially in builds that have the mass removal like Jokulhaups and Obliterate. The reason is that you can find it hard to put planewalkers into play without them getting attacked and killed, and obviously you need your lands to cast them in the first place, so it's not like you can cast land destruction first. Casting both types of spells in a single turn is pretty unrealistic. However Emergence Zone allows you to cast a planewalker just before your turn, and then in your own turn follow this up with a Jokulhaups or Obliterate. If you can imagine casting Will Kenrith to reduce the casting cost of these spells to make this sequence very feasible. Hoenstly if you are running mass land destruction, then you should play Emergence Zone.
God-Eternal Kefnet does go great with extra turns cards, of which we are playing 6 of them. If you manage to "miracles" one of them while you have God-Eternal Kefnet, then that does mean that you'll get two turns in a row as you still get to cast the extra turn spell turn eventually anyway. If you can take two turns in a row, then you pretty much win too be honest, as you can setup for the Rowan emblem. What's neat is that if you have Will Kenrith out as well then use his [-2] cost reduction and a spell like Nexus of Fate is only going to cost 1UU.
Unfortunately the only top deck manipulation in the deck is Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor.
If you combine God-Eternal Kefnet with Jace, the Mind Sculptor and an extra turns card, then this is infinite.
Plus for four mana God-Eternal Kefnet is straight up a 4/5 flyer, which is great for protecting your planeswalkers.
Sarkhan the Masterless is actually quite an interesting planeswalker. If you create a 4/4 Dragon token, then it does mean that often go wide token decks with 1/1's will not be able to attack. Plus the 4/4 flyer is protection.
But the interesting element is that often I've found that when I play opposing planeswalker decks I struggle dealing with them. Often the mass creature removal means that I put that opponent on an advantage as well, as it doesn't effect them and in fact helps them. So in this respect Sarkhan the Masterless can be used to attack and remove opponents planeswalkers.
If you used Sundial of the Infinite you could keep them permanently as creatures, meaning that they can actually defend themselves. If you played extra turn cards like Final Fortune, Last Chance, then you can make better use out of Sundial. So you could use it for meta specific purposes.
It's also the only instance of being able to give planeswalkers a creature type, which can lead to creature copy effects.
Normally the legendary rule will mean that you don't get to keep additional copies.
We now have Spark Double, but you can extend this using Sakashima the Impostor or Helm of the Host to gain multiple copies of a planeswalker.
Narset, Parter of Veils is a potential hoser for a lot of decks in commander, and she does represent card advantage in the long term. It's going to depend on your creature to non-creature ratio how successful the [-2] is. Narset, Parter of Veils becomes much more oppressive if playing cards like Windfall, Timetwister, Time Spiral, etc, so just better in a build that supports those type of storm cards as well.
Karn, the Great Creator is a card that I've talked about when the card was first spoiled in the rumor forum. I'll just repost most of my thoughts, but note that I'm not discussing it's relevance specifically Will & Rowan Kenrith. Karn, the Great Creator [-2] ability is a super unique ability. If you look at the "wishes", like Living Wish, Cunning Wish, etc, they specifically are only "outside the game", and are not able to target exile. Karn, the Great Creator can get artifacts that have been exiled with Karn, Scion of Urza.
You can use his ability to give yourself access to your deck in a number of different ways.
Color-pies that normally can't search for artifacts, or limited number, now have another means. Skyship Weatherlight, Mangara's Tome, Jester's Cap, Myr Incubator.
It can give blue more ways to search for artifacts Distant Memories, Extract, Foresight, Manipulate Fate, Parallel Thoughts, Selective Memory. Hoarding Dragon to get it straight away.
There is also the means to use your graveyard as an additional resource.
For example say you have cards like Relic of Progenitus, Scrabbling Claws or Scavenger Grounds. You can specifically target your own artifacts in graveyard that you might have already used, or got removed, or even milled, to get back with Karn, the Great Creator [-2] ability. Saprazzan Bailiff for major value. Prototype Portal can cheekily get the artifact back to hand. Mimic Vat can exile an artifact creature to get back to hand. Haven't thought about this much, but I'm sure it's abusable.
Anyway there will be a ton of ways to use this card on levels that you might not have thought about, and to boot it's a one-sided Null Rod.
Most of the stuff I've been talking about is for commander, but actually for Vintage it could actually be playable..
The reason is that with the delve cards in Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise you'll often be exiling your Black Lotus, Moxes, etc, so the [-2] gives you access to them. The Null Rod ability is very powerful in Vintage, and the [+1] can be used on opponents Moxes to kill them.
Plus even if you have creature removal against a creature-less deck, it gives you the ability to make an artifact a creature, to then Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, etc it.
Lazotep Plating. I actually think this is going to be a massively underrated card in commander. It competes against potential straight up conterspells, but in a planeswalker deck where blockers count, you can actually make a 1/1 creature token at instant speed, and this can have a subtle swing in a game, where you'd save your permanents from targeted removal and create another blocker. Plus can be used to protect against player targeting, so you can prevent targeted graveyard removal like Bojuka Bog, which might come in handy when wanting to use cards like Jaya Ballard or Jace, Telepath Unbound.
Narset's Reversal. I'm not really big on copying spell cards in general as there is too much of a random element to how good they are during a game. Sometimes you can do the most amazing things with them as opponents do something huge and you get to tag along. However, there is a lot of the time where you'd hold up mana for copying a spell and nothing ever comes. So they are quite mana inefficient when it comes to constructing a proactive deck strategy. Narset's Reversal is interesting in that it can be like a Remand sort of delaying the spell for a turn. It's going to depend what the spell is. Copying a mass removal spell doesn't work, so it's not like a straight up delayed counter, but you can completely swing a game if they were going for a powerful spell like Genesis Wave.
You can copy your own extra turn cards, but unlike a Twincast you have to recast the spell to get the second extra turn. But you can use this cleverly to mitigate opponents trying to disrupt your spells with counterspells, by then returning your own spell to hand, while still getting a copy on the stack.
Contentious Plan is essentially a card that replaces itself and can accelerate getting to ultimate's. With Wills [-2] it would only cost you U. It would pretty hard to fault any deck that played it as it simply cantrips itself.
Doesn't make the cut
Ral, Storm Conduit static ability and [+2] are pretty underwhelming for this deck. But the [-2] ability if used on an extra turn card can really set you up for the win, as I pointed out with God-Eternal Kefnet.
I just personally don't see him being proactive enough as a viable include.
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries is certainly good in some decks. You really want to be leveraging off your graveyard with putting cards into your graveyard, and a deck that can lean on the no cards in library for a win condition.
The three blue does make it harder to cast in general. But it must be noted that the ultimate [-8] is within the double up of Deepglow Skate range.
Interplanar Beacon doesn't provide colored mana for non-planeswalker spells, so for this deck isn't good at all.
Blast Zone is an awesome card, and worth considering in any mono or bi-colored deck in commander. But I have too much need of colored mana from my lands and sinking that much mana into removing a converted mana cost, would have to line up really well.
Looking to make this deck my last (for now), but I’ve Been struggling with how to go about it. While I’d love to do a more Superfriend’s build, I worry that my lack of Cloudstone Curio and Rings Of Brightearth will make the deck suffer some. Even a storm/spellslinger focused version seems out of place :x
Does anyone have any suggestions?
There are a lot of different ways to go with Will & Rowen, so a bit tricky to establish a focus. Will can lead you into a instant and sorcery heavy deck for sure, so it's not like it needs to be "storm" (i.e. completely comboing off casting millions of cards).. just plain good value is very satisfying.
Feel free to throw up a maybe list at some stage (mainly so I can see what you already potentially have) and we can try and figure out something together.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I'm replacing Saheeli, Sublime Artificer with Chandra, Acolyte of Flame when I get a copy. The reality is that 9/10 times you'll have a spells to cast that are more efficient to your game plan than using Karn's Bastion, and that means 9/10 games you'd just prefer it to be an Island
I need to test Flux Channeler a bit more before I decide on it.
I'll give Planebound Accomplice a try. Pity has to be from hand (not command zone) otherwise it would be busted really.
My friends are trying Narset's Reversal among their decks at the moment, so I'll wait to get generally feedback. I've been telling them "I bet it's not as good as you think" talk. But you always remember the times that it did something really good, and not the other times when it would have just been better to be a counterspell.
Yeah I have not gotten on the Force of Negation band wagon yet, as I normally don't use my counterspells for control, rather to protect my own game plans. It's just how most of my decks are built as very combo orientated. But the more competitive the meta, the more Force of Negation is going to win you games.
I'm just going to replace Karn's Bastion with Prismatic Vista. Easy.
I actually like Chandra, Acolyte of Flame. Sure the elemental tokens don't do anything, but the loyalty counter for Rowen, allow you to ultimate over two turns, which quite frankly is exactly what I want.
The casting instant and sorcery from graveyard isn't probably going to be used that much, but a game where you have a Savor the Moment is going to be great, and there are a few cantrip type cards to get value from, bot much, but some. Definitely keen to try her.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Not getting the tokens to stick is a little worse with Chandra, Novice Pyromancer, but I'm still going to try her, she speeds up the Rowen plan which is key.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Hypothetically let's look at some scenarios. I have to go into deep conceptualization for cards like this because they are really hard to evaluate.
Let's say we have Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Will Kenrith in play with Repeated Reverberation in hand.
You could Will [-2] for cost reduction and cast Repeated Reverberation for RR.
Now if you use Chandra, Torch of Defiance mana ability you'd get RRRR. Now you can cast Rowen with this mana and cost reduction.
So far this hasn't gotten us any further that just using Will and Chandra normally.
So you'd need another spell to really get a pay off. The best would be a extra turns card, say a 5 mana one, so that would only mean needing an additional 1UU available. This would give you two extra turns, and a guaranteed Rowen ultimate.
It is important to look at other spells you'd really benefit from this as well, Mystic Confluence, Tezzeret's Gambit, Fact or Fiction. With Brainstorm, Preordain, Ponder to a lesser extent.
That's not that many, copying creature kill cards like Chain Reaction or Evacuation doesn't have any benefits from double ups.
That's why I don't put much focus on Will Kenrith emblem for this deck build because it's not much of a big instant and sorcery deck.
Now what about exactly the same setup with Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Will Kenrith in play with Repeated Reverberation in hand, but instead we cast Repeated Reverberation for the full amount 2RR.
Now when we use Will Kenrith [-2] we will draw 4 cards and get a cost reduction of 4. Here we use Chandra, Torch of Defiance again to get RRRR and now we can spend 2 of that on casting Rowen. We have RR left over and this will allow us to cast some pretty expensive spells like Temporal Mastery, Nexus of Fate, Teferi, Temporal Archmage, Ugin, the Ineffable, probably as well.
This would seem the better way to use it.
It does seem like you can get some great upsides, but as I've pointed out you really need to have "action" cards as well to benefit. If it added loyalty counters, then I'd say yes, but at this stage I think it's the type of card that only rewards you when you already have some pretty good advantages anyway, i.e you have an extra turn card or an additional planeswalker in play. I tend to rate cards on their ability to get you back into a game when you are behind, and I don't think this does that?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Actually Chandra, Novice Pyromancer is probably just a straight up replacement for Chandra, Bold Pyromancer as I've literally never used the [-3] or [-10] on her before. Sure the [+2] can be a win condition with the damage, but there are plenty of walkers that have the actual way to finish opponents.
It is a shame that Chandra, Novice Pyromancer other abilities are next to useless, but as I say I only use the [+1] RR anyway.
I've also been thinking about Chandra, Acolyte of Flame as sooooooooo much of the game plan is to ultimate Rowen.
If you have her in play already and then cast Rowen, then that means that you can look to ultimate Rowen the following turn, as Chandra, Acolyte of Flame can add two loyalty counters over those two turns.
She also can create a blocker to provide protection for herself (or other walkers). The [-2] ability isn't amazing with the number of targets in the deck, but it's does have a chance at providing value, especially if I get to do back-to-back Savor the Moment.
The other card that has come out of Core 2020 is Flood of Tears. I really think this card is perfect in this deck as a tempo card, or especially if your behind/losing.
With Will Kenrith cost reduction it could only cost 2UU and then you can look to put Will Kenrith back into play immediately. With so many of the permanents in this deck being mana rocks, you should be able to be setup almost exactly as you were before you cast the spell.
If you're really lucky you get to put Omniscience, or even Ugin, the Ineffable which might allow you to play out your artifact mana again, and just hard cast Will Kenrith again.
So at this stage I'm looking to put in Chandra, Acolyte of Flame, Chandra, Novice Pyromancer and Flood of Tears.
I think the cuts will be Meishin, the Mind Cage, Chandra, Bold Pyromancer and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Added
+ Talisman of Creativity
+ Fiery Islet
Removed
- Dream Halls
- Island
I just ended up being more scared than anything playing out Dream Halls even though it gives some combos with the commanders.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Planebound Accomplice is looking a like a sure thing as a certified combo with Cloudstone Curio.
My question is going to be how good is it without the Cloudstone?
If you're stringing together a big turn, then you can use it to generate small amounts of mana, via putting the planeswalkers into play off it. But this is a big price to pay for like an additional mana, at the expense of killing a planewalker resource.
If you're desperate for draw then you can convert R into a draw ability off a walker.
You can use the ability at the end of an opponents end step, to have more mana in your turn, and they would be sacrificed at the end of your turn. So that's an additional little trick if you were looking to load up a big turn.
Honestly I'll have to test it out to see how much I'd use it without the Cloudstone Curio.
The 1/3 body is pretty deece at small-ball blocking through those early turns.
Sundial of the Infinite is a way of mitigating the sacrifice at end of turn. I could see a build using this along with Final Fortune, Last Chance, Warrior's Oath for extra turn cards.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
You have 8 discard outlets to setup the graveyard, and 9 cards that use your graveyard as a resource.
I'd like to see some more card filtering, as this can really help to smooth out your draws. It just means you can discard those high costed cards during the early game, to draw more mana, etc.
Faithless Looting, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Search for Azcanta, Cathartic Reunion.
With Will [-2] cost reduction, it's almost always the colored portion of spells which is the bottleneck for casting multiple spells.
With this in mind there are a few spells I personally don't like; Counterflux, Mission Briefing, Narset's Reversal, Capsize.
The double blue on them means that they are going to be less efficient in the long run. Even Disallow would much prefer to be a simple Negate or Delay for the purposes of color management.
I get it, they could be quite fun in the right situation, but on the whole they are situational.
Spells like Finale of Promise and Electrodominance are good because even though they use double colored mana, they pay for the colored portion of other spells, making them efficient with Will [-2].
Also you are very happy to discard spells to due hand size to setup your graveyard, for cards like Mizzix's Mastery and Finale of Promise.
So for the sake of colored mana as well, Thought Vessel and Reliquary Tower are detrimental to the deck.
You want everything to provide colored mana as much as possible. The Paradox Engine is looking a little weak at the moment as you'll always find the bottleneck is colored mana as I said, and your threshold of artifact mana is a bit too light.
Look to add Coalition Relic, Firemind Vessel, Coldsteel Heart.
So you can remove the Mind Stone, Thought Vessel for colored artifact mana.
Hope these suggestions help
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I can't say that I've tried Desolate Lighthouse. As you say colorless lands have to be premium. If I had a few more use graveyard as a resource cards then I could see it being better, but I feel like I almost always have something I could cast rather be patient with the card filtering.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Some of the cards I'll be discussing will be sort of repeated statements from that review.
I have to say that War of the Spark really is a great set, I think even under all the hype, it's still probably being underrated for just how special this set is among Magics history. It's often that it takes a while for people to catch on what they have in front of them.
His ability to provide protection with 2/2 creature tokens, and then also be able to provide card advantage by potentially putting those cards into your hand, is very appealing.
I used to play all the other colorless planeswalkers, Karn, Scion of Urza, Karn Liberated, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, in the initial versions of this deck, but I found that I was more interested in ones that specifically have draw elements and of course mana elements. I essentially found that removal wasn't really needed, which Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon are more specialized in.
Sure Ugin, the Spirit Dragon can give you draw if ultimate, but you have to build up to that, so it's only really good if you're already ahead, where walkers that give draw straight away can help when you're behind.
Karn, Scion of Urza I found the card advantage was just a bit slow, being every other turn you might get something truly useful. However he did provide protection with token creatures.
The reason that I was so interested in the colorless walkers, is because I wanted combo with Cloudstone Curio and Will Kenrith [-2] cost reduction ability, to give you infinite bounces between walkers that provide enough mana.
Alright so Ugin, the Ineffable does have essentially have a mana ability as I have 19 artifacts in the deck, and there is a lot of draw, so I feel that it would get use on the colorless cost reduction.
It also provides protection and card advantage, albeit not immediately as you need the creature to die, but I feel that this is just the best of the colorless planeswalkers for this deck which does provide removal for a colored permanent as well.
Not being able to remove artifacts could be a big downside, but it's mainly the static and [+1] ability that I'm interested in. Plus it costs less than Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon which helps.
The thing with getting triggers on casting spells, is that you need to be casting multiple spells a turn. I just found that taking a turn off to proliferate for one, meaning a single spell follow up, was a bit weak.
However Flux Channeler is cheaper to cast, and represents an immediate blocker for your planeswalkers.
I think it will be worth testing. It does die to own mass creature removal spells, and would definitely be better with more cantrip type cards like Gitaxian Probe, Serum Visions, and if you can afford the slots more artifact mana like Mox Amber, Chrome Mox, Mox Opal, to name a few.
So I'm not expecting it to be amazing with my current configuration, but I feel like it could be worth it.
Because I'm running Paradox Engine and my spells need a lot of the Izzet colors, I've been careful to include artifacts that provide colored mana with, Izzet Signet, Coalition Relic, Izzet Locket, Gilded Lotus, Coveted Jewel.
Now I will point out that trying to use Saheeli Rai ability to copy Firemind Vessel will not work as it'll come into played tapped, so that's a downside.
If you cast her and then on the following turns only cast a couple of a cards, then two 1/1s are not all that impressive. But she does cost three mana, so she might be able to provide just enough protection to save a planeswalker or two from dying, which is important.
So for me the deciding factor is just how good is her [-2] ability, and what exactly can it do in the deck? Now it doesn't create a token, you actually have to have an artifact in play for it to become a copy of something else.
Honestly when you look what this is doing, it's not like you can do broken things.
You can make some of your cheaper artifacts into Gilded Lotus or Coveted Jewel.
The thing is that the combo artifacts like, The Chain Veil, Paradox Engine, Cloudstone Curio, are either legendary or don't really work in multiples anyway.
You could copy Rings of Brighthearth for more value, but I find that I'm more mana bottlenecked a lot of the time to use an secondary Rings.
If you were really desperate you can play out a Nevinyrral's Disk and make an already artifact in play a copy so that you can have a untapped version to get immediate use. But that's a lot of resources you're putting into that.
I'm really on the fence on this one, I think I'll need to test it to figure out if it's good or not for the deck.
However if all you plan on doing is copying Will Kenrith, then it's still a really great strategy. Will is such a beast, that having the ability to negate 4 creatures a turn, or draw 4 cards and cost reduction by 4 is clearly amazing.
Karn's Bastion does essentially tie up 5 mana to get an activation, but for a land slot I think it's worth it when you might want a mana sink, that can accelarate the main plan of ultimating Rowan.
Unfortunately the only top deck manipulation in the deck is Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor.
If you combine God-Eternal Kefnet with Jace, the Mind Sculptor and an extra turns card, then this is infinite.
Plus for four mana God-Eternal Kefnet is straight up a 4/5 flyer, which is great for protecting your planeswalkers.
But the interesting element is that often I've found that when I play opposing planeswalker decks I struggle dealing with them. Often the mass creature removal means that I put that opponent on an advantage as well, as it doesn't effect them and in fact helps them. So in this respect Sarkhan the Masterless can be used to attack and remove opponents planeswalkers.
If you used Sundial of the Infinite you could keep them permanently as creatures, meaning that they can actually defend themselves. If you played extra turn cards like Final Fortune, Last Chance, then you can make better use out of Sundial. So you could use it for meta specific purposes.
It's also the only instance of being able to give planeswalkers a creature type, which can lead to creature copy effects.
Normally the legendary rule will mean that you don't get to keep additional copies.
We now have Spark Double, but you can extend this using Sakashima the Impostor or Helm of the Host to gain multiple copies of a planeswalker.
Karn, the Great Creator [-2] ability is a super unique ability. If you look at the "wishes", like Living Wish, Cunning Wish, etc, they specifically are only "outside the game", and are not able to target exile.
Karn, the Great Creator can get artifacts that have been exiled with Karn, Scion of Urza.
You can use his ability to give yourself access to your deck in a number of different ways.
Color-pies that normally can't search for artifacts, or limited number, now have another means.
Skyship Weatherlight, Mangara's Tome, Jester's Cap, Myr Incubator.
It can give blue more ways to search for artifacts
Distant Memories, Extract, Foresight, Manipulate Fate, Parallel Thoughts, Selective Memory.
Hoarding Dragon to get it straight away.
There is also the means to use your graveyard as an additional resource.
For example say you have cards like Relic of Progenitus, Scrabbling Claws or Scavenger Grounds. You can specifically target your own artifacts in graveyard that you might have already used, or got removed, or even milled, to get back with Karn, the Great Creator [-2] ability.
Saprazzan Bailiff for major value. Prototype Portal can cheekily get the artifact back to hand.
Mimic Vat can exile an artifact creature to get back to hand. Haven't thought about this much, but I'm sure it's abusable.
Anyway there will be a ton of ways to use this card on levels that you might not have thought about, and to boot it's a one-sided Null Rod.
Most of the stuff I've been talking about is for commander, but actually for Vintage it could actually be playable..
The reason is that with the delve cards in Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise you'll often be exiling your Black Lotus, Moxes, etc, so the [-2] gives you access to them. The Null Rod ability is very powerful in Vintage, and the [+1] can be used on opponents Moxes to kill them.
Plus even if you have creature removal against a creature-less deck, it gives you the ability to make an artifact a creature, to then Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, etc it.
Narset's Reversal is interesting in that it can be like a Remand sort of delaying the spell for a turn. It's going to depend what the spell is. Copying a mass removal spell doesn't work, so it's not like a straight up delayed counter, but you can completely swing a game if they were going for a powerful spell like Genesis Wave.
You can copy your own extra turn cards, but unlike a Twincast you have to recast the spell to get the second extra turn. But you can use this cleverly to mitigate opponents trying to disrupt your spells with counterspells, by then returning your own spell to hand, while still getting a copy on the stack.
Contentious Plan is essentially a card that replaces itself and can accelerate getting to ultimate's. With Wills [-2] it would only cost you U. It would pretty hard to fault any deck that played it as it simply cantrips itself.
I just personally don't see him being proactive enough as a viable include.
The three blue does make it harder to cast in general. But it must be noted that the ultimate [-8] is within the double up of Deepglow Skate range.
Of the other planeswalkers in Izzet colores from War of the Speak Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor, Chandra, Fire Artisan, Jaya, Venerated Firemage, Tibalt, Rakish instigator, are just too janky to consider.
Interplanar Beacon doesn't provide colored mana for non-planeswalker spells, so for this deck isn't good at all.
Blast Zone is an awesome card, and worth considering in any mono or bi-colored deck in commander. But I have too much need of colored mana from my lands and sinking that much mana into removing a converted mana cost, would have to line up really well.
Are there any cards that you feel that I left out that should mentioned in some capacity?
Given everything the cards that I want to try out are...
Added
+ Ugin, the Ineffable
+ Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
+ Flux Channeler
+ Spark Double
+ Firemind Vessel
+ Karn's Bastion
Removed
- Jace, Architect of Thought
- Jaya Ballard
- Thing in the Ice
- Thaumatic Compass
- Maze of Ith
- Myriad Landscape
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Feel free to throw up a maybe list at some stage (mainly so I can see what you already potentially have) and we can try and figure out something together.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith