He posted about that in spec chat, he said it was a copy/paste error from Wuffles action but he's not sure how it happened exactly.
You were effectively roleblocked anyway, though, because both of your targets targeted Cyan which sent them to the Otherworlds.
I have some set up thoughts that I'll probably post piecemeal over the next couple days. The TL;DR there is basically that the AH made the game really snowbally in either direction and the wolves probably needed some kind of factional ability to affect the auction house like extra auction numbers or something (we've talked about that pretty extensively in spec chat so I'll probably be repeating a lot of what D_V says there lol).
As far as the Heist goes I think there are really only two ways to "fix" that. Have the names of all the items in the AH known up front instead of waiting until D3 to add some items and leave it to the wolves to figure out that the town can figure out how many items were stolen *and* to the town to actually do that; or obfuscate how many items are in the auction house by removing the lot numbers and randomly deciding a subset of items to be bid on that day instead of voting for items. Since the item names often weren't related to the item's function and the item's actual powers were hidden, this shouldn't really change anything about how items are chosen. It was basically random anyway except the Holy Water bids.
I think it was a misplay to have all of the wolves heist in the first place because it should have been obvious that we could figure out how many items were stolen by checking which lot numbers were missing. But a lot of the wolf roles felt weak when I reviewed the set up so I can't really blame you guys, heh. Most of the raw power was tied up in DoTA's role or was counter play for the frankly silly amount of investigative power in the set up. It would have mattered *less* if DoTA hadn't also died N1 because his flip basically told us that the number of missing items = the number of wolves. Hrm. Actually maybe you could get away with just not doing full role reveals...
I'm a bit flummoxed at my own role, specifically the King in Yellow Screenplay. I know D_V said he would change it already, but, the fact that I would have lost the new abilities after successfully making a kill and that that whole business was hidden is kind of. I would have been upset if myself or Cyan had gotten lynched over, let's just say that. And I never did ask, but presumably my current sanity wouldn't have been affected upon changing back and if I had succeeded at killing someone I would have died to sanity loss anyway.
The Ward of Cthulhu was a busted item that probably shouldn't have made it past review lol. I'm glad it didn't really have a chance to affect the game. My favorite future fix would be to allow the targeting action to go through before sending that person to the Otherworlds, similar to the way the Sign works.
Shadow's tablet was a silly item and probably should have just given the choice between gold, item, and ability cop, if not just done all three at once.
Wolves probably needed to be able to activate abilities and items at the same time. They didn't actually have any night abilities other than the kill, but that alone could narrow the PoE pretty considerably.
Wolf AH fix is to give them dummy numbers they can bid under instead of Cantrip's anonymous bidder ability, I think D_V already said that. The wills were also a bit of a problem, but I'm not sure how to fix that. Either just remove them and items on dead players are removed from the game (opens up a bit of design space to take items from dead players I guess) or allow wolves to pass items without having to use the will system.
Most of my, uhm, ramblings and such are in the spectator chat.
My biggest regret is not trying to force my town reads on Grape and RE through the Heist PoE to narrow it down further but, we didn't really need it I guess.
Also for not living long enough to shoot tom, but, cest la vie. I probably would have been lynched if I'd actually managed to kill anyone, so there's that I suppose.
So it could be used every day instead of every night if the user wanted.
It's distinguished from other multiuse any time actions because those can be used every day *and* every night. Cycle cool down makes you skip it.
I had a considerable conversation with him about whether I would die if the mask were activated at the same time Grape set my sanity to 0 and stuff because he told me that's how it worked lol.
I'm pretty sure that isn't what he told me, because I asked him specifically if someone who activated the mask on N2 could use it again on N3 and he said yes.
Also, if I don't have the common decency to die, I'm a zombie and deserve to be shot immediately.
Note also that the mask of azathoth (if Proph doesn't have it) can't be used till DAYTIME tomorrow at earliest. I have mod confirmation of this.
Interesting. I'm ~pretty sure the Mod told me that if the Mask was used on N2 it could be used again on N3 at the earliest, and that the cycle cooldown just meant it couldn't be activated on N2 and then D3. Could be misremembering though.
if you can't argue with the source of misinformation or information, it's OOG. if someone says they were busy, it can't be argued. same principle applies.
Except you *can* argue with the source of the (mis)information. You ask the mod yourself, and then it becomes he said/she said. Or you say "I don't think the mod would have told you that." Or whatever.
If the mod publicly comes into the thread and answers the question, yes, that is a source that cannot be argued with. If it comes from a player, they can say whatever they want *including* lying about something the mod told them.
That's literally the reason the rule exists as it does.
Conversely, the rules forbid Out of Game angleshooting, talking about replacements, and asking why people are V/LA because that would force (or at least cause some number of) wolves to lie about those things to gain a tactical advantage and that's gross. We don't want people lying about how their goldfish died to explain why they're lurking, but we don't care if they lie about something another player told them or about mechanics (like, what their role is and how it works) because those are both part of the game. It isn't any different than lying about what night actions you took or claiming you received different night action results from the mod than you really did.
But Grape was right, we can discuss this post game, it isn't super important right this second.
@tom: yeah, so the neighborhood just sprung up fully formed with three people in it?
That's kind of strange. Was this on D2 then? The neighborhood persistrd through to toDay, I'm assuming?
@dawning: I'm not saying it's weird *because* you are waiting, your *reason* for waiting is weird. Because of what I already said. Proph *already* lolcatted and claimed scum, I'm not waiting for him to, and his wagon tells us nothing because he's lockscum so everyone is going to pile on him as soon as whatever we're waiting for happens. I don't really know what it is myself, tom's tablet results maybe. Or a post from Cantrip.
I can't tell if you're, like, just skimming my posts and not reading them very closely or if you're trying to discredit me on purpose but it's getting a bit old.
as for the policy, I'm just not into asking. if you signed up for a game, you're ready to deal with it "as is". asking the mods takes away the mystery of guessing, and then I don't see a point in playing a setup that is basically confirmed. (it also can lead to derpclears) overall, not the best way to approach a game you signed up for ~policy.
just cuz you're allowed to ask the host any questions doesn't mean you should abuse it. the only time it's worth asking is unless a game goes sooo deep into modgaming that clarifying confusion is necessary. other than that, it is strictly an OOG thing and shouldn't be used in gamesolving (to me). it's also nasty if someone lies about a modconfirm, or we end up lying about modconfirms. (like, mods can't even object to it?)
No, see, this is exactly the reason why, when I drafted the rules these are based on, I said I wouldn't answer questions in the game thread. Lying about how your role interacts with another role should always, always be on the table. Because if a wolf is fake claiming they might *have* to do that or out themselves.
The whole point is that it eliminates accidental modclears and derpclears because there isn't any such thing. Anyone could be lying about anything they said the mod said, which is how it should be.
Hi Cantrip, sorry we didn't get to play together.You guys are being silly.
Don't lynch Cyan, he's probably a villager. I don't have anything in particular you say about his rant except that, while he made some good points, I'm not in any particular hurry to die lol.
Dawning's thing about not asking the mod is ~weird~ but whatever. Like, that's the purpose of having a mod, so you can ask them about stuff you're supposed to know but don't. Like, "how do my tracker results appear if [X interaction]?" If they didn't want you to know, they would tell you so or be intentionally vague. Information in set ups like this is imperfect because there are so many moving parts and part of being a moderator for a game like this is explaining them.
Dawning's thing about waiting for other people to lynch Proph is almost "too wolfy to be a wolf" and I don't even think that's a thing. Like. What information are you expecting to get from the wagon of an outed wolf? His last post was a lolcat calling himself a noob.
Still really want tom (or Cantrip, I guess) to claim who was in the chat first. Find it ~somewhat unlikely that wolf!Gemma puts Proph in the chat first, I think.
I also want tom to claim his tablet results since his whole reason for *not* claiming them was to try to bait the NK to remove himself from the PoE, and now he thinks he's confirmed town and is hoping to... die with his info for no apparent reason I guess.
I ~guess RE could be the 4th Heist Wolf, dawning had claimed tracker results before RE claimed Looking Glass results, so if dawning is town RE knew it was safe to try to clear him or at least take his lynch off the table. That's, like, a plausible thing that could have happened but I really don't like that this is, basically, the only evidence against her besides lolflavorgaming.
But the other options are still Togs, Grape, and Gemma. All of whom other than Gemma I've been town reading since, like, Day 1. I guess I would lynch and shoot, like, Gemma / RE / Grape / Togs / dawning in approximately that order, should end the game.
Well, Killjoy too I guess. Kind of still think Tom just needs to Wuffles Watch Rhand and see if Killjoy is heist wolf clear.
So. I'm guessing I would've just been lynched if I *had* managed to kill Killjoy because. Lol if I had "magically" lost my kill.
You were effectively roleblocked anyway, though, because both of your targets targeted Cyan which sent them to the Otherworlds.
I have some set up thoughts that I'll probably post piecemeal over the next couple days. The TL;DR there is basically that the AH made the game really snowbally in either direction and the wolves probably needed some kind of factional ability to affect the auction house like extra auction numbers or something (we've talked about that pretty extensively in spec chat so I'll probably be repeating a lot of what D_V says there lol).
As far as the Heist goes I think there are really only two ways to "fix" that. Have the names of all the items in the AH known up front instead of waiting until D3 to add some items and leave it to the wolves to figure out that the town can figure out how many items were stolen *and* to the town to actually do that; or obfuscate how many items are in the auction house by removing the lot numbers and randomly deciding a subset of items to be bid on that day instead of voting for items. Since the item names often weren't related to the item's function and the item's actual powers were hidden, this shouldn't really change anything about how items are chosen. It was basically random anyway except the Holy Water bids.
I think it was a misplay to have all of the wolves heist in the first place because it should have been obvious that we could figure out how many items were stolen by checking which lot numbers were missing. But a lot of the wolf roles felt weak when I reviewed the set up so I can't really blame you guys, heh. Most of the raw power was tied up in DoTA's role or was counter play for the frankly silly amount of investigative power in the set up. It would have mattered *less* if DoTA hadn't also died N1 because his flip basically told us that the number of missing items = the number of wolves. Hrm. Actually maybe you could get away with just not doing full role reveals...
I'm a bit flummoxed at my own role, specifically the King in Yellow Screenplay. I know D_V said he would change it already, but, the fact that I would have lost the new abilities after successfully making a kill and that that whole business was hidden is kind of. I would have been upset if myself or Cyan had gotten lynched over, let's just say that. And I never did ask, but presumably my current sanity wouldn't have been affected upon changing back and if I had succeeded at killing someone I would have died to sanity loss anyway.
The Ward of Cthulhu was a busted item that probably shouldn't have made it past review lol. I'm glad it didn't really have a chance to affect the game. My favorite future fix would be to allow the targeting action to go through before sending that person to the Otherworlds, similar to the way the Sign works.
Shadow's tablet was a silly item and probably should have just given the choice between gold, item, and ability cop, if not just done all three at once.
Wolves probably needed to be able to activate abilities and items at the same time. They didn't actually have any night abilities other than the kill, but that alone could narrow the PoE pretty considerably.
Wolf AH fix is to give them dummy numbers they can bid under instead of Cantrip's anonymous bidder ability, I think D_V already said that. The wills were also a bit of a problem, but I'm not sure how to fix that. Either just remove them and items on dead players are removed from the game (opens up a bit of design space to take items from dead players I guess) or allow wolves to pass items without having to use the will system.
Uhm. I'll post some more thoughts later probably.
Most of my, uhm, ramblings and such are in the spectator chat.
My biggest regret is not trying to force my town reads on Grape and RE through the Heist PoE to narrow it down further but, we didn't really need it I guess.
Also for not living long enough to shoot tom, but, cest la vie. I probably would have been lynched if I'd actually managed to kill anyone, so there's that I suppose.
Thanks (again) D_V and Osie for hosting!
It's distinguished from other multiuse any time actions because those can be used every day *and* every night. Cycle cool down makes you skip it.
I had a considerable conversation with him about whether I would die if the mask were activated at the same time Grape set my sanity to 0 and stuff because he told me that's how it worked lol.
Also, if I don't have the common decency to die, I'm a zombie and deserve to be shot immediately.
Good luck, and never lynch Cyan before F3. And even then only if it just has to be an SK and not fifth wolf.
This is me, choosing not to hammer, by the way. Fire when ready. If you need me Togs has my contact info apparently.
Or, well, the most vocal contingents thereof. Grapefruit excepted.
If the mod publicly comes into the thread and answers the question, yes, that is a source that cannot be argued with. If it comes from a player, they can say whatever they want *including* lying about something the mod told them.
That's literally the reason the rule exists as it does.
Conversely, the rules forbid Out of Game angleshooting, talking about replacements, and asking why people are V/LA because that would force (or at least cause some number of) wolves to lie about those things to gain a tactical advantage and that's gross. We don't want people lying about how their goldfish died to explain why they're lurking, but we don't care if they lie about something another player told them or about mechanics (like, what their role is and how it works) because those are both part of the game. It isn't any different than lying about what night actions you took or claiming you received different night action results from the mod than you really did.
But Grape was right, we can discuss this post game, it isn't super important right this second.
@tom: yeah, so the neighborhood just sprung up fully formed with three people in it?
That's kind of strange. Was this on D2 then? The neighborhood persistrd through to toDay, I'm assuming?
@dawning: I'm not saying it's weird *because* you are waiting, your *reason* for waiting is weird. Because of what I already said. Proph *already* lolcatted and claimed scum, I'm not waiting for him to, and his wagon tells us nothing because he's lockscum so everyone is going to pile on him as soon as whatever we're waiting for happens. I don't really know what it is myself, tom's tablet results maybe. Or a post from Cantrip.
I can't tell if you're, like, just skimming my posts and not reading them very closely or if you're trying to discredit me on purpose but it's getting a bit old.
The whole point is that it eliminates accidental modclears and derpclears because there isn't any such thing. Anyone could be lying about anything they said the mod said, which is how it should be.
It isn't any different from a fake claim.
You guys are being silly.
Don't lynch Cyan, he's probably a villager. I don't have anything in particular you say about his rant except that, while he made some good points, I'm not in any particular hurry to die lol.
Dawning's thing about not asking the mod is ~weird~ but whatever. Like, that's the purpose of having a mod, so you can ask them about stuff you're supposed to know but don't. Like, "how do my tracker results appear if [X interaction]?" If they didn't want you to know, they would tell you so or be intentionally vague. Information in set ups like this is imperfect because there are so many moving parts and part of being a moderator for a game like this is explaining them.
Dawning's thing about waiting for other people to lynch Proph is almost "too wolfy to be a wolf" and I don't even think that's a thing. Like. What information are you expecting to get from the wagon of an outed wolf? His last post was a lolcat calling himself a noob.
Still really want tom (or Cantrip, I guess) to claim who was in the chat first. Find it ~somewhat unlikely that wolf!Gemma puts Proph in the chat first, I think.
I also want tom to claim his tablet results since his whole reason for *not* claiming them was to try to bait the NK to remove himself from the PoE, and now he thinks he's confirmed town and is hoping to... die with his info for no apparent reason I guess.
I ~guess RE could be the 4th Heist Wolf, dawning had claimed tracker results before RE claimed Looking Glass results, so if dawning is town RE knew it was safe to try to clear him or at least take his lynch off the table. That's, like, a plausible thing that could have happened but I really don't like that this is, basically, the only evidence against her besides lolflavorgaming.
But the other options are still Togs, Grape, and Gemma. All of whom other than Gemma I've been town reading since, like, Day 1. I guess I would lynch and shoot, like, Gemma / RE / Grape / Togs / dawning in approximately that order, should end the game.
Well, Killjoy too I guess. Kind of still think Tom just needs to Wuffles Watch Rhand and see if Killjoy is heist wolf clear.