Slightly updated build after going 1-4 tonight. Opted to keep Scoozes maindeck after realizing how painful Canopy and fetchlands can be, and how big scoozes can get if I hold onto them for after the opponents removal is used up. Also went up a land to 21, I don't think 20 is a good number, especially with Steel Leaf being such an important card now. I would really like to go to 22 to ensure the Steel Leafs are coming out on time, and that I have mana open for Vines, but I just don't know what I'd remove at this point. I use This article for determining all my land numbers.
Something I have a really hard time with is the Rancor/Aspect/Vines ratio. In my mind, Rancor is the best of the 3, but leaves us open to getting 2-for-1'd if they kill the target before it resolves. Aspect is incredibly powerful, especially in my build, but is mostly a finisher, and leaves us open to getting 2-1'd as well. Vines I'm torn on. I rarely have mana open to kick it, and casting it in response to removal forces them to waste a removal spell, but we're casting 2 cards for their one in that interaction, and still only have a creature.
How do you guys rank these spells? Going down a Rancor was painful, but when I was making the decision to cut, guess I felt like Vines at least ensures I'm not getting 2-1'd, whereas Rancor and Aspect do not.
Ideally, I'd like 4 of Aspect, Rancor, and Vines, but I'm not willing to cut creatures for them, and I need a reliable manabase.
Part of me wants to go all out on the creature base, 3 Scoozes, 2 Rhonas, and another land. Thoughts?
Steel leaf and Rhonas have been absolute all stars for me lately. I didn't do amazing tonight, but all the games I lost were 1-2, even against Jund, Naya Burn, and Humans. The Narnams made E1 and Avatar very noticably better so those and the fetches are for sure staying. Narnam is a great reason for your opponents to think twice about swinging, something Kessig Prowler just does not do. Even if they decide to use their limited removal on the Narnam, I'm happy. Even without fetches, I'd still run Narnam over Kessig for the decisions it can force on my opponent T1/2, something even Dryad doesn't do.
I was actually able to break a board stall with Humans in one of my games, with a Rancor on Rhonas.
Which is why I have 3 in the side but the majority of games I've played in my current meta, playing Scooze as a 3-4 drop wasn't what I needed, another large body and pushing my E1 into the regen zone was more relevant. My opponent now has 2 3/3 to deal with, one with regen, whereas scooze takes at least 2 turns to get going. Turns I'd rather be casting Steel Leaf, and turns where E1 is still just a 2/2 candidate for removal.
Don't get me wrong, I love scooze, and that's why I have 3 in the side, in matchups where I really need it, there's no replacement. But most of the time, having bigger creatures NOW, and straining my opponents removal has been a better G1 plan. And most of the time, Scooze get's blown up before he's relevant, so he is usually one of the last creatures I end up casting
I may be wrong, but I'm gonna try this and see if my results aren't better first.
Interesting...Never thought that Rancor would be the answer to a T3 kill, but I'll have to start thinking of that card more seriously.
I've also added a scooze to the side and moved the 2 from the main (3 total) in favor of running 2x Tuskers. I don't see lightning bolt nearly as much as I used to, and with the new Steel Leafs dominating my 3 drop slot, I prefer to ensure I can cast a 3/3 on curve, get a second evolve trigger, and have 1 more for Aspect, rather than hold up Scooze for the two extra mana it takes to keep it out of bolt range. I'm sure I'll miss the bit of life gain it afforded me though, especially after all the fetches/canopies I've added.
I actually do have 2 Horizon Canopies in there MagicYio, just forgot to include them in the list.
I'm actually looking to start a bit more of a mathematical discussion. Lets start by talking about our most explosive hand possible. The fastest line I can think of is:
T1 Ex1 > T2 Ex1 + Dryad, swing 2 > T3 Narnam(2/3) + Avatar(6/5), swing 10 > T4 SLC + Aspect Swing 20+9 = 41 damage over 4 turns (Ex1 are both a 5/5)
A Geist in place of either the Avatar or the SLC nets a T4 kill as well.
I haven't been able to formulate a T3 kill and frankly I don't think it's possible unless the opponent aggressively fetches and shocks, in which case they're removing our creatures, and we're not getting the T3 kill anyways. Even a hand with 1 E1, 4 Geists and an Aspect is a T4 kill.
Not too fond of the weak SB against control but it seems BW control has been sloping downwards in popularity anyways, so I shored up other matchups instead.
Notably, I added 6 fetches and a full playset of Narnams and Steel Leaf, removed all Leatherbacks, went down to a single Rhonas, went -1 Blossoming Defense +1 Vines of Vastwood, and opted to run 20 lands to vibe with the lowered curve and to make room for 4 Narnams. I wish I could run 4 Aspects but I just can't make room.
Also, can we talk about optimal lines of play? I never know if its better to get out Geist, Avatar, or Scooze first. I know that playing Haste creatures last allows for more damage over turns, but if I can get an Undying counter before I play Avatar, he comes out stronger. I also hate running out Scooze into removal just for the Evolve trigger.
Normally, I hold up Avatar if I think I can get two counters on him, otherwise I play Avatar on curve, and Geist last. My reasoning there is playing Geist after even Steel Leaf and Rhonas allows for the max possible damage over turns, and he is also the most resilient to removal/board wipes. A pair of Geists coming down after a board wipe has won me quite a few games.
I also will play out all E1 before any creatures that evolve them, not sure if this is correct or if I should just try to get one out and then move up the curve...
Again, I'm really not sure that my reasoning is optimal and I would really like to get the best possible damage per turn sorted out.
What do you guys think are our optimal lines of play for the earliest possible kill? When to play Aspect? Best targets for Rancor?
My point is, are you people spikes or not? Are we discussing decks that actually try to win or are we just forcing an archetype just to play something different? People have made disparaging comments about budget decks in this thread and the previous one, and kept bringing up the fact that this thread is not located in the budget section of the forums, but to me, playing a bad deck just to be different makes so much less sense than playing it because you don't happen to have access to a better one.
Putting fetchlands into this deck and still forcing mono green just cannot be correct if your objective is to win games.
Look man, in the 1 drop slot, our options are E1, Dryad Militant, Kessig Prowler, and Narnam Renegade. E1 is an auto 4-of. All the others are a 2/1, except Narnam Renegade, which is a 2/3 with deathtouch if we can trigger revolt. Deathtouch + Rancor, another 4-of in the deck, is a nasty combo. What's the most consistent way of triggering revolt? Fetchlands.
I don't know what your predispositions are but I would submit to you that if it works, and does help to win games, then it absolutely is correct.
Guys, as the age old adage goes, don't pay attention to trolls.
Excited to go back to my stompy deck for the first time in two months with fetches, Canopies, Renegades, and Steel Leaf
I'm very interested to see how Steel leaf changes the way we build our deck. Will it become an immediate 4-of? Will it make Rhonas that much stronger, or completely replace Rhonas as the more consistent creature? Do we run a more top-end heavy deck? Does ramping into Collected Company become a strong option?
I've been toying with the idea of 1-2 of Skirge in the main for a bit since someone mentioned it a while back. It seems like a really solid perk to run as a 1-2 of, and though it doesn't give devotion, its a solid target for Rancor and pump spells.
However, I don't really get the obsession with adding mana dorks to a stompy build, it completely changes the way the deck plays, and generally not in a good way. Unless you're ramping into CoCo, I don't think dorks have any sort of positive payoff vs a 2 power one drop or E1 over turns. And if your dork gets removed, you're gonna be really sad.
So I finally found my deck after a good room cleaning. Gonna dust it off and start testing it before I take it anywhere though. I did make some slight adjustments though. If anyone has any tips or pointers I'm all ears.
My sideboard is a bit of a mess at the moment. I figure I'd playtest around a bit and make changes along the way. And I'd like to get a second Rhonas to replace the Dungrove. I might end up trying out 2 Tattermunge Maniac to have a 9th and 10th one drop, but I'm not sure if I really should. Also trying out Pounce since I really don't like playing Dismember. I might be playing it wrong but I always end up screwing myself with that card.
If you're paying 2 mana for a fight spell, use Nature's Way. Or, Prey Upon is strictly better than Pounce. However, neither of them is all that useful in a list without deathtouch. You only have 1x Rhonas, and no Narnam Renegades, so I would stick to 2x Dismembers if you're not willing to change that. I also would not use Dunbro in a list with 2x Treetops.
I'm also an advocate for the use of a mainstay "tech slot" in the deck. Bow of Nylea is a popular one that some lists even run 2x of in their 75, but Lifecrafter's Bestiary has found a home in my list. Just a thought.
I'll be running 1x Rhonas, 1x Baloth, and 3x Champion the day my cards come in the mail. Champion is an incredible addition to our deck, he's so good that I can finally justify cutting Rhonas by 1 (no need to worry about double draws anymore, and no guilt for dropping to 1x). And the Baloth is just for good measure against Hollow One/Goyf.