Well, there it is. The experiment is over. It failed. It was a disaster from start to finish, for all the reasons I predicted, and now its dead. Well, there's still going to be a 1v1 format, its just not going to be anything resembling what it was or what it was envisioned to be. Instead, its basically commander, but 1v1 and partners are nerfed. There are a few other minor differences (continued banning of a few commanders that are extra nasty 1v1, a few cards being unbanned because they aren't as bad 1v1, and a few being banned for balance reasons or being too good 1v1), but the formats have never been closer in form or function. This is the first time I've been able to look at the format with any sort of hope that it might succeed in some way, and any interest in playing it. (I've tried it a few times every time there was a major change and found it as crappy as I expected, but now I'm expecting better).
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's amazing how terrible this format has been since its inception. Constant cheese, constantly converging on one of two decks, mile long banlist. And to think that people deluded themselves into thinking that it would be good for multiplayer lol.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I've enjoyed the return of the multiplayer banlist immensely. I also like the ability to occasionally play the old banlist 1v1, optionality is nice.
It's been a couple months since ive played a lot of 1v1 though (been addicted to CKii) so I was interested in seeing how the July bans have played out? Casual pick ups playing things like Rebels vs Angel Tribal isn't exactly a good way to get a read on it.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Pursuing "balance" is one thing, but they said that they are trying to pursue a format that is "balanced and fun". They banned Derevi, Arcum, and Zur from the get-go presumably because the decks that they encourage are not "fun". I'm not saying that WotC is on a fool's errand; I am merely saying that finding the tipping point of what constitutes "balance" while trying to make sure that the format is "fun" is going to be a continuous challenge that is going to require a continuous stream of bans. People will continue to find the "next best thing" you can do in the format with every set of new bans, and some of things will be considered "unfun" and or "unbalanced". I am interested in seeing where the line gets drawn.
I agree with that. French Rules had long been dominated by a handful of lists. Part of the issue with balancing for competitive play is that you make the format competitive. Once you start focusing a format on tournament play, you begin to move away from casual. One of the RCs innovations that has made this format so popular is that they don't care at all about tournament play and maintain the format with a heavy focus on casual play. This fosters an atmosphere of creativity and relaxed deck design for many playgroups, and yes even online. It's kitchen table ethos. It's getting to play with almost any card and with cool legends, and being forced to pick around 60 different cards rather than a few playsets. This doesn't preclude cutthroat decks, obviously, but it doesn't push towards them either. A tournament focused format, on the other hand, puts the most competitive strategies front and center and centers all discussion on those strategies. Balanced and diverse is one thing, but fun is subjective and often counter to balance. The RC has no problem with banning a card for problematic casual omnipresence or otherwise screwing up casual games too easily, even if it's fine or even beneficial to a competitive environment. In a tournament focused format, if there is a card that is important to balance the format for competitive play but that has a tendency to ruin casual games and generally makes the format unfun do you ban it? Like what if Prophet ends up helping a fair deck police the format but is, as usual, annoying and unfun in casual? You aren't going to screw up the balance to pursue a subjective idea of fun, even if most people are in agreement that the card makes the format less fun. Mono blue counter wall, or counter wall decks generally, are considered unfun by a majority of players. Sure, it's problematic currently because the recently banned cards made it too easy to refill hands and polymorph into Emrakul is too easy of a wincon (as is high tide Emrakul), but once those are taken away permission decks can help police the format against all in combo. Would WotC weaken those decks to the point of being tier 3 just to make the format more fun at a casual level (by making permission easier to overcome) even if it means making uninteractive linear strategies top tier? Hopefully not for balance reasons, but that weakens the casual appeal of the format.
WotC will need to treat the format as it does modern or standard. That's why it's great that come July 5th, multiplayer will return to the real EDH banlist.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I just don't think they want to immediately introduce a nuke to the format. Just slice away small pieces, look at the effects, and work from there. Seems to be the safest way to go about things.
Its the safest strategy to go about things, given the current situation. Their creation of this format was a terrible way to go about things though. We already have two 1v1 banlists, one of which was tailored to 30 life, which while far from perfect already had a lot of testing data that drove them to their current state. WotC made this banlist up, and its pretty obvious that they didn't understand the format and didn't bother to do much research into the metagames and discussions around leviathan and french rules. If they had, they would have released a list much closer to one of those, and then used their greater access to new data to refine it. If they hadn't made the initial effort so half assed (and it certainly was given the "we're making it a joint banlist because we're too lazy and cheap to code a separate one for multiplayer" debacle), then the format would have started in a much better place and evolved from there.
Well, that's a small, and likely insufficient step.
I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment.
If they wanted to shake up Baral, they should have also hit Emrakul, the Aeons Torn with a ban. As long as Polymorph effects are legal, Emrakul will remain a problem. It just ends up being the most efficient finisher in a deck that just wants to play nothing but answers otherwise.
If they wanted to shake up some of the other decks, I think the only way to do it would be to ban their commanders; there is no one or two cards that make Tasigur, Breya, or Vial too good as generals. You either accept that these decks are going to be the best in the format or you have to cut off the head.
There are broken strategies that aren't being played solely because they are kept in check by even more broken strategies.
And this will be the eventual problem of trying to achieve "balance". How diverse of a metagame does competitive 1v1 commander need to be? If you banned Tasigur, is Leovold just going to step up in its place? How many draw spells would need to be banned to move Mono-U Draw-Go off the top perch? Is just banning Strip Mine good enough to not de-incentivize abusing Life From the Loam or Crucible of Worlds with Wasteland, Dust Bowl, Tectonic Edge, or Encroaching Wastes? If you get people off of mono-green ramp/LD, do people start migrating to Winter Orb, Stasis, etc. locks? At what point are "the best things you can do" too good for the format that can't be balanced due to the presence of Force of Will (which is the primary balancing factor of formats like Vintage and Legacy)?
To me, this format is like an onion. Once you start peeling layers, there are nothing but more layers underneath... and you are crying the whole time you are peeling. I expect lots and lots of bans over the course of the format if WotC continues on this quest for a "balanced and fun" competitive EDH format.
I don't think its completely a fools errand to pursue balance, but the problem faced by WotC is that many of the biggest problems in the format are new legends. Tasigur, Vial Smasher, Leovold, Breya, Gitrog, these are all pretty new and they were all basically designed to be commanders (the supplemental products were overtly, the Khans/FRF legends were in order to boost the options for wedges). Its a bad look to have cards designed for the format and pushed for the format get banned so quickly because they break it. It shows that they still don't know how to balance for the format, and damages player confidence in the product.
That said, they need to bite the bullet and ban the bull*****. They need to understand that in Commander, being legendary is an enormous upside mechanic that they need to take into account when judging if a card is strong enough to warrant a ban. They need to read every legend as potentially having built in recursion and as always being available. In this format, legends are not balanced by some of the balancing effects inherently built into the game, namely the randomness of the draw and the ability to only use cards once without another card's help.
Tasigur, Vial, and Leovold need to eat a ban, full stop. Baral probably doesn't, as banning Emrakul in addition to Dig and Cruise might weaken the deck enough to make it a reasonable but fair choice. I'm ok with mono blue counters being a thing, so long as its not THE thing. Its healthy for a format to have a hard permission option to police combo and other decks that rely on big plays and key cards.
Stax is fine too. One sided LD abuse that is combined with ramp like the mono green decks, that is unhealthy and unfun. Strong resource denial is generally better for the format when its symmetrical and requires the builder to break the symmetry, or slightly weaker and used to maintain an advantage, sort of as a tempo move rather than a lock. Prime Time makes mono green resource denial far too easy. There is simply no opportunity cost, you cast a fairly efficient beater and automatically destroy two lands, or destroy one land while getting ramped one yourself depending on which helps you more, then you repeat every time you attack with it. It needs to go. If that doesn't do enough, get rid of Sylvan. At least push the strategy to relying on methods that don't give them a fatty to kill you with, like loam and crucible abuse. At least without Strip Mine that becomes weak against mono color strategies, while Prime Time still ramps you two lands immediately and then beats face and ramps at its WORST, and Sylvan will ramp you and nuke a land even against mono color, and then is a fatty afterwards. They are too reliable even when the non basic land hate strategy isn't viable.
Ban Oloro as well. And Derevi. Oloro invalidates zurgo style aggro strategies. If mono blue is weakened enough with the current bannings and eventually Emrakul, low to the ground aggro decks will be able to prey on it, cutting down its prevalence in the format and helping achieve some balance. Vial Smasher is very strong at leading blue based permission decks, because she was designed for multiplayer and unbalanced in a 30 life format where her ability always hits the player you are trying to kill, and lets your permission double as burn to the face, so she needs the axe to prevent her from taking over for mono blue. Oloro is next in line, as he can head up a permission deck that can outlast low to the ground aggro until he draws a sweeper and thus have no real weaknesses. Until those two are gone, weakening mono blue will just lead to those two taking over the role and being similarly over-represented.
Derevi, meanwhile, makes stax too strong. Her ability to ignore commander tax makes it too easy to break the symmetry of mana denial, as does her ability to untap things. She comes down too fast and is far too difficult to deal with. She's probably the last hurdle before you get to a somewhat balanced format, as she isn't as broken as the other things and thus kept in check by them. Without them, I see the format turning into Derevi, decks designed to beat Derevi, and all in combo, as Derevi sneaks past permission which makes it weaker in the format and thus less played opening up space for glass cannon combo.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well, that's a small, and likely insufficient step.
It hurts Baral, Chief of Counters a but by removing a couple of its best ways to refill it's hand, and Tasigur for the same reason, but I doubt it will make countering everything much less attractive or effective, while I know that Tasigur will remain a broken commander in the best colors. Banning strip mine also takes a piece away from Tasigur, and hits the ability of mono green to play mana denial off of Prime Time, but again it won't be enough. The path will still be open against many decks by using wasteland, Prime Time is still an obvious problem, and not being able to take out basics will boost mono blue decks like Baral. Losing dig and cruise hurts vial smasher a bit too as they were big damage sources.
I see zurgo red decks being slightly better positioned since they now can't get locked out of land by green and will have an easier time out casting blue (decks like burn that spread their threats out make it so counter decks have to counter most spells rather than key cards, so they have an easier time breaking through the counter wall, and blue losing dig and cruise makes it more likely that blue runs out of Counters and red starts resolving spells compared to before).
Overall I expect the results to be broadly similar to the May 10th version. If the introduce more bans next month, it might break the stranglehold that Tasigur, Baral, and Vial Smasher have on the format. At that point, the other problem cards that are unbanned will make themselves known. Heck, they only touched on Vial Smasher this time as collateral damage!
I don't think Tasigur stops being a problem in 1v1 until Tasigur is banned. I don't think heavy ld stops being a problem strategy until Prime Time is banned. Then we will see Vial Smasher take over Tasigur's shell and Leovold rise. If those are taken care of, Oloro stands ready to invalidate traditional aggro, especially if zurgo red decks get popular. There are broken strategies that aren't being played solely because they are kept in check by even more broken strategies.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Their best bet is to adopt the Leviathan banlist straight up with Vial Smasher Prime Time and Leovold added. Keep Sylvan Prime on a watchlist. That's where I'd start anyway.
As such, it would mean the banning of the following cards which are banned in Leviathan, but not on MTGO 1v1: Ancient Tomb - If they are serious about getting rid of fast mana, then it would be a good idea to ban this Cataclysm - Its not a problem now, but I can see the metagame shifting enough where his would become problematic Chrome Mox - I'm surprised this was legal in the first place Dig Through Time - This was a mistake that needs to be fixed Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - This is another mistake that needs to be fixed Grim Monolith - I'm surprised this didn't get the axe when they decided to ban Ring, Vault, and Crypt Grindstone - This is basically a swap with Painter's Servant, but I could see Servant staying on the banned list High Tide - I can see where this might be problematic, but it isn't an issue right now Imperial Seal - The online game is full of tutors, so hitting the good 1 CMC tutors might help Intuition - Lame, but I get it Loyal Retainers - I've always felt that this card was kinda busted so I'm not sure why it isn't already banned Mox Diamond - Same as Chrome Mox Mystical Tutor - Same as Imperial Seal Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - I get that this card invalidates aggro as a strategy, but I don't see aggro being a thing without more changes Strip Mine - I think that after Emrakul, this is public enemy #2 on MTGO Treasure Cruise - Same as Dig Vampiric Tutor - Same as Imperial Seal Tasigur, the Golden Fang - I think the numbers speak for themselves
It would also mean the unbanning of the following cards that are banned on MTGO, but not in Leviathan: Arcum Dagsson - I would leave this banned; you would just be enabling prison by unbanning it Bazaar of Baghdad - This is a head scratcher; they need to realize that this isn't Vintage Biorhythm - Makes sense in Multiplayer, but not in 1v1. I have a suspicion that this was a relic of the fact that this was going to be a dual-use (1v1 and Multiplayer) Braids, Cabal Minion - Same as Arcum Doomsday - I'm actually surprised this isn't banned in Leviathan, but I think it is safe to leave off the banned list Griselbrand - I'm really surprised this isn't banned in Leviathan, but I think this should stay banned on MTGO Limited Resources - Yeah, please don't. Even though this is probably a relic of the multiplayer list, GW Plow Under plus this will totally be a thing and I think that they need to get rid of land-lock combos, not add more Moat - another head scratcher Painter's Servant - I would be fine with swapping this with Grindstone, even with Iona on the prowl Survival of the Fittest - I think that hey would regret unbanning this Trade Secrets - Again, another concession to the original MP banned list that is perfectly safe to unban in 1v1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard - I think that this would be borderline as to whether or not to unban this. I would leave it on the list to be honest.
So yeah, the Leviathan list is not perfect either. It does fix a few problems with the current meta with the bans, but there are cards that would be unbanned that are a problem; Arcum, Griselbrand, Limited Resources, and perhaps Braids would be the big ones.
Agreed on Grislebrand, Limited and probably Arcum. Braids isn't nearly as brutal without fast mana. When she's not coming online until turn 4, she's much easier to deal with. I think stax has a valid place in the format. The problem with the current mana denial decks is more that the denial is one sided or worse (the green player ramps while destroying lands), and a broader symmetric stax strategy would play differently. Even Arcum *might* be ok, as again he's coming out later without fast mana and combo into a lock is a very different kind of mono blue than wall of counters.dek, but I don't think it's worth the risk.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
So it should be interesting to see what they actually change with the banned list for 1v1 MTGO. It's clear that there are a few overpowered archetypes; Mono-U control (with either Baral or Flip-Jace at the helm), green ramp/LD (With Selvala, Nissa, Titania, or perhaps Gitrog at the helm), Tasigur, Breya, and Vial Smasher. With 9 Commanders basically making up 90% of the 5-0 decks, I'm wondering if it makes sense to ban commanders or ban cards. Banning Strip Mine, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Primeval Titan, Treasure Cruise, and Dig Through Time would help put a dent in this and may be a good starting point for a "bans two weeks into a new format" course correction, but does that actually solve the problems? On the flip-side of that, does banning Baral and Jace actually stop people from just moving to Vendilion Clique and playing the same deck/strategy? If you hit the big four green commanders, will people not just move to Azusa, Omnath, Seton, or Rishkar? How much does WotC care that green ramp is being paired with green LD and that land destruction is a popular and winning archetype? Or that 30 Counterspell Draw-Go with Polymorph into Emrakul finish is a winning archetype?
WotC has their hands full here; they promised a format that was both "balanced and fun". It will be interesting to see how far they go to break up the blue and green dominance in the metagame and whether the weakening of either archetype leaves you with anything that is either balanced or fun...
Their best bet is to adopt the Leviathan banlist straight up with Vial Smasher Prime Time and Leovold added. Keep Sylvan Prime on a watchlist. That's where I'd start anyway.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
A lot of Sylvan's power comes from the fact that in Multiplayer, your taking out 3+ problem permanents then getting 3+ lands on one play, making it a 7 for 1 or better if you just cast it once with no other shenanigans, while in 1v1 its a 3 for 1 (body, forest, and removal). Still very strong but not as immediately ridiculous. With blink and reanimate, it gets more like it is in multiplayer, but add those in multiplayer and its completely broken. These results are pretty predictable though. Certainly not worth ruining multiplayer over.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Looks like Wizards is quickly realizing that this format is too easy to solve with the current ban list they have.
Wow, only 10 days in and they need to make an emergency change. It's like this was an entirely half assed effort by people who don't know what they are doing.
Hopefully they will improve the 1v1 format by getting rid of some of the problem cards they unbanned and taking a second look at some of what they banned. Together with the July 5 return of real multiplayer EDH, they might be able to salvage this.
They should have left multiplayer alone from the start and just copied the Leviathan banlist and tweaked from there as results came in, but it wouldn't be mtgo without an incompetent rollout that pisses off the player base.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
With the Magic Online deployment of Hour of Devastation on July 5, however, we will add another Commander format with a second, separate banned list.
Well, I was going to start playing multiplayer Commander on MTGO again, but I guess I'll wait two months until they unf*ck this mess they made. As usual, WotC is driven by their own greed and obsession over competitive formats.
Yeah, I'm sticking to 1v1 until july. Too much Leovold, now with prophet, primordial, and Prime time.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
While I agree that they are inherently different formats the power level of cards remains the same. Sol ring is easily as strong as a moxen would be in our format but one is banned and the other isn't? Mana crypt/vault are even better in commander than they are in legacy because the self damage aspect is largely offset by the higher life total.
Cards like gaeas cradle, necropotence, and humility are still just as good in multiplayer.
The justification that it's a multiplayer format and therefore it's somehow ok to have one land that taps for 10 mana or be able to pay 1 life and draw as many cards as you want just doesn't hold up to me. Sure it being a singlehon format means that those cards are rarer to come up even in decks that they are in. But when they do the game is decided often on turn 0. That is an amount of variance I would personally rather not have.
What does the format lose by banning these cards? 6 mana on turn 3? The requirement to put these cards in every deck you make so that it's 'competitive'?
Personally I'd rather do without.
I think Humility is more of a card that's OK in Legacy, not OP. Regardless, yes, getting that significant of a mana advantage is much more powerful in 1v1 than multiplayer because in 1v1 you bring all of your resources to bear on one player and only have one player trying to stop you, while in multiplayer you need to use your resources to take out 3+ players, all while you might have every one of those players join forces to reign you in. And its silly to say a card like Sol Ring decides the game on turn 0 in a multiplayer match, please be serious. Before you get pedantic, I understand you're exaggerating, and that you really mean that its such an enormous advantage that its basically insurmountable when one player lands a turn 1 ring and everyone else goes land, pass, and I'm saying that is ridiculous. Maybe at the highest level of play, where decks are trying to combo by turn 4, but that's it and even that requires everyone but the sol ring player getting a bum draw.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I actually agree 100% with everything added to the banlist. I disagree mith all the unbans though. I would definitely be onboard with this list with no unbans. Sign me up!
That said they have backed off and will likely end up with the same old banlist that we've had for ages and we will continue building decks with cards that are too powerful for legacy :/
That's fine for multiplayer honestly. For 1v1, this new list will be THE list (and will suck until they understand that cards like Leovold shouldn't be legal). Saying that a card is too strong for Legacy, a 1v1 20 life 60 card format, does not intrinsically have any relevance to how good it is in EDH, a multiplayer 40 life 100 card singleton format. Cards that are very strong in Legacy, like Delver or Bolt or Goyf, aren't all that impressive in EDH, while many cards on the EDH banlist suck in Legacy (like Prophet, primordial, or Prime Time).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Holy *****, this is actually the best possible solution and I'm eating crow over my doubts they'd do this. Thank God.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
My understanding is that they want to cater to 1v1 for MTGO. After all, 1v1 is more conducive to leagues and therefore pay-for queues. Hence shifting the commander banlist from Multiplayer centric to 1v1 centric. It would seem that multiplayer EDH in the context of MTGO is just not a priority for them. Perhaps they see the number of players as being too small to support. Therefore, they are likely just willing to accept them as collateral damage if that means being able to bolster 1v1 popularity on MTGO.
If that's right, it seems awfully short sighted. I tend to be dubious of businesses decisions which alienate portions of a customer base. Especially, considering it seems wholly unnecessary in this case. It should be relatively simple and easy to add a "Duel Commander" format with a separate ban list. The argument about consistency between 1v1 and multiplayer to avoid confusion ignores the fact that they are already doing that in a broader sense between paper and MTGO.
Ding ding ding. WotC doesn't want to support anything online that they can't run tournaments for online. It's pure greed. With this move, freeform is now the only purely casual format. Everything is centered on leagues and events. The only thing that has saved Momir basic at this point is that they can occasionally run an event for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Well, there it is. The experiment is over. It failed. It was a disaster from start to finish, for all the reasons I predicted, and now its dead. Well, there's still going to be a 1v1 format, its just not going to be anything resembling what it was or what it was envisioned to be. Instead, its basically commander, but 1v1 and partners are nerfed. There are a few other minor differences (continued banning of a few commanders that are extra nasty 1v1, a few cards being unbanned because they aren't as bad 1v1, and a few being banned for balance reasons or being too good 1v1), but the formats have never been closer in form or function. This is the first time I've been able to look at the format with any sort of hope that it might succeed in some way, and any interest in playing it. (I've tried it a few times every time there was a major change and found it as crappy as I expected, but now I'm expecting better).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's been a couple months since ive played a lot of 1v1 though (been addicted to CKii) so I was interested in seeing how the July bans have played out? Casual pick ups playing things like Rebels vs Angel Tribal isn't exactly a good way to get a read on it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I agree with that. French Rules had long been dominated by a handful of lists. Part of the issue with balancing for competitive play is that you make the format competitive. Once you start focusing a format on tournament play, you begin to move away from casual. One of the RCs innovations that has made this format so popular is that they don't care at all about tournament play and maintain the format with a heavy focus on casual play. This fosters an atmosphere of creativity and relaxed deck design for many playgroups, and yes even online. It's kitchen table ethos. It's getting to play with almost any card and with cool legends, and being forced to pick around 60 different cards rather than a few playsets. This doesn't preclude cutthroat decks, obviously, but it doesn't push towards them either. A tournament focused format, on the other hand, puts the most competitive strategies front and center and centers all discussion on those strategies. Balanced and diverse is one thing, but fun is subjective and often counter to balance. The RC has no problem with banning a card for problematic casual omnipresence or otherwise screwing up casual games too easily, even if it's fine or even beneficial to a competitive environment. In a tournament focused format, if there is a card that is important to balance the format for competitive play but that has a tendency to ruin casual games and generally makes the format unfun do you ban it? Like what if Prophet ends up helping a fair deck police the format but is, as usual, annoying and unfun in casual? You aren't going to screw up the balance to pursue a subjective idea of fun, even if most people are in agreement that the card makes the format less fun. Mono blue counter wall, or counter wall decks generally, are considered unfun by a majority of players. Sure, it's problematic currently because the recently banned cards made it too easy to refill hands and polymorph into Emrakul is too easy of a wincon (as is high tide Emrakul), but once those are taken away permission decks can help police the format against all in combo. Would WotC weaken those decks to the point of being tier 3 just to make the format more fun at a casual level (by making permission easier to overcome) even if it means making uninteractive linear strategies top tier? Hopefully not for balance reasons, but that weakens the casual appeal of the format.
WotC will need to treat the format as it does modern or standard. That's why it's great that come July 5th, multiplayer will return to the real EDH banlist.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Its the safest strategy to go about things, given the current situation. Their creation of this format was a terrible way to go about things though. We already have two 1v1 banlists, one of which was tailored to 30 life, which while far from perfect already had a lot of testing data that drove them to their current state. WotC made this banlist up, and its pretty obvious that they didn't understand the format and didn't bother to do much research into the metagames and discussions around leviathan and french rules. If they had, they would have released a list much closer to one of those, and then used their greater access to new data to refine it. If they hadn't made the initial effort so half assed (and it certainly was given the "we're making it a joint banlist because we're too lazy and cheap to code a separate one for multiplayer" debacle), then the format would have started in a much better place and evolved from there.
I don't think its completely a fools errand to pursue balance, but the problem faced by WotC is that many of the biggest problems in the format are new legends. Tasigur, Vial Smasher, Leovold, Breya, Gitrog, these are all pretty new and they were all basically designed to be commanders (the supplemental products were overtly, the Khans/FRF legends were in order to boost the options for wedges). Its a bad look to have cards designed for the format and pushed for the format get banned so quickly because they break it. It shows that they still don't know how to balance for the format, and damages player confidence in the product.
That said, they need to bite the bullet and ban the bull*****. They need to understand that in Commander, being legendary is an enormous upside mechanic that they need to take into account when judging if a card is strong enough to warrant a ban. They need to read every legend as potentially having built in recursion and as always being available. In this format, legends are not balanced by some of the balancing effects inherently built into the game, namely the randomness of the draw and the ability to only use cards once without another card's help.
Tasigur, Vial, and Leovold need to eat a ban, full stop. Baral probably doesn't, as banning Emrakul in addition to Dig and Cruise might weaken the deck enough to make it a reasonable but fair choice. I'm ok with mono blue counters being a thing, so long as its not THE thing. Its healthy for a format to have a hard permission option to police combo and other decks that rely on big plays and key cards.
Stax is fine too. One sided LD abuse that is combined with ramp like the mono green decks, that is unhealthy and unfun. Strong resource denial is generally better for the format when its symmetrical and requires the builder to break the symmetry, or slightly weaker and used to maintain an advantage, sort of as a tempo move rather than a lock. Prime Time makes mono green resource denial far too easy. There is simply no opportunity cost, you cast a fairly efficient beater and automatically destroy two lands, or destroy one land while getting ramped one yourself depending on which helps you more, then you repeat every time you attack with it. It needs to go. If that doesn't do enough, get rid of Sylvan. At least push the strategy to relying on methods that don't give them a fatty to kill you with, like loam and crucible abuse. At least without Strip Mine that becomes weak against mono color strategies, while Prime Time still ramps you two lands immediately and then beats face and ramps at its WORST, and Sylvan will ramp you and nuke a land even against mono color, and then is a fatty afterwards. They are too reliable even when the non basic land hate strategy isn't viable.
Ban Oloro as well. And Derevi. Oloro invalidates zurgo style aggro strategies. If mono blue is weakened enough with the current bannings and eventually Emrakul, low to the ground aggro decks will be able to prey on it, cutting down its prevalence in the format and helping achieve some balance. Vial Smasher is very strong at leading blue based permission decks, because she was designed for multiplayer and unbalanced in a 30 life format where her ability always hits the player you are trying to kill, and lets your permission double as burn to the face, so she needs the axe to prevent her from taking over for mono blue. Oloro is next in line, as he can head up a permission deck that can outlast low to the ground aggro until he draws a sweeper and thus have no real weaknesses. Until those two are gone, weakening mono blue will just lead to those two taking over the role and being similarly over-represented.
Derevi, meanwhile, makes stax too strong. Her ability to ignore commander tax makes it too easy to break the symmetry of mana denial, as does her ability to untap things. She comes down too fast and is far too difficult to deal with. She's probably the last hurdle before you get to a somewhat balanced format, as she isn't as broken as the other things and thus kept in check by them. Without them, I see the format turning into Derevi, decks designed to beat Derevi, and all in combo, as Derevi sneaks past permission which makes it weaker in the format and thus less played opening up space for glass cannon combo.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It hurts Baral, Chief of Counters a but by removing a couple of its best ways to refill it's hand, and Tasigur for the same reason, but I doubt it will make countering everything much less attractive or effective, while I know that Tasigur will remain a broken commander in the best colors. Banning strip mine also takes a piece away from Tasigur, and hits the ability of mono green to play mana denial off of Prime Time, but again it won't be enough. The path will still be open against many decks by using wasteland, Prime Time is still an obvious problem, and not being able to take out basics will boost mono blue decks like Baral. Losing dig and cruise hurts vial smasher a bit too as they were big damage sources.
I see zurgo red decks being slightly better positioned since they now can't get locked out of land by green and will have an easier time out casting blue (decks like burn that spread their threats out make it so counter decks have to counter most spells rather than key cards, so they have an easier time breaking through the counter wall, and blue losing dig and cruise makes it more likely that blue runs out of Counters and red starts resolving spells compared to before).
Overall I expect the results to be broadly similar to the May 10th version. If the introduce more bans next month, it might break the stranglehold that Tasigur, Baral, and Vial Smasher have on the format. At that point, the other problem cards that are unbanned will make themselves known. Heck, they only touched on Vial Smasher this time as collateral damage!
I don't think Tasigur stops being a problem in 1v1 until Tasigur is banned. I don't think heavy ld stops being a problem strategy until Prime Time is banned. Then we will see Vial Smasher take over Tasigur's shell and Leovold rise. If those are taken care of, Oloro stands ready to invalidate traditional aggro, especially if zurgo red decks get popular. There are broken strategies that aren't being played solely because they are kept in check by even more broken strategies.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Agreed on Grislebrand, Limited and probably Arcum. Braids isn't nearly as brutal without fast mana. When she's not coming online until turn 4, she's much easier to deal with. I think stax has a valid place in the format. The problem with the current mana denial decks is more that the denial is one sided or worse (the green player ramps while destroying lands), and a broader symmetric stax strategy would play differently. Even Arcum *might* be ok, as again he's coming out later without fast mana and combo into a lock is a very different kind of mono blue than wall of counters.dek, but I don't think it's worth the risk.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Their best bet is to adopt the Leviathan banlist straight up with Vial Smasher Prime Time and Leovold added. Keep Sylvan Prime on a watchlist. That's where I'd start anyway.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Wow, only 10 days in and they need to make an emergency change. It's like this was an entirely half assed effort by people who don't know what they are doing.
Hopefully they will improve the 1v1 format by getting rid of some of the problem cards they unbanned and taking a second look at some of what they banned. Together with the July 5 return of real multiplayer EDH, they might be able to salvage this.
They should have left multiplayer alone from the start and just copied the Leviathan banlist and tweaked from there as results came in, but it wouldn't be mtgo without an incompetent rollout that pisses off the player base.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Yeah, I'm sticking to 1v1 until july. Too much Leovold, now with prophet, primordial, and Prime time.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think Humility is more of a card that's OK in Legacy, not OP. Regardless, yes, getting that significant of a mana advantage is much more powerful in 1v1 than multiplayer because in 1v1 you bring all of your resources to bear on one player and only have one player trying to stop you, while in multiplayer you need to use your resources to take out 3+ players, all while you might have every one of those players join forces to reign you in. And its silly to say a card like Sol Ring decides the game on turn 0 in a multiplayer match, please be serious. Before you get pedantic, I understand you're exaggerating, and that you really mean that its such an enormous advantage that its basically insurmountable when one player lands a turn 1 ring and everyone else goes land, pass, and I'm saying that is ridiculous. Maybe at the highest level of play, where decks are trying to combo by turn 4, but that's it and even that requires everyone but the sol ring player getting a bum draw.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That's fine for multiplayer honestly. For 1v1, this new list will be THE list (and will suck until they understand that cards like Leovold shouldn't be legal). Saying that a card is too strong for Legacy, a 1v1 20 life 60 card format, does not intrinsically have any relevance to how good it is in EDH, a multiplayer 40 life 100 card singleton format. Cards that are very strong in Legacy, like Delver or Bolt or Goyf, aren't all that impressive in EDH, while many cards on the EDH banlist suck in Legacy (like Prophet, primordial, or Prime Time).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Ding ding ding. WotC doesn't want to support anything online that they can't run tournaments for online. It's pure greed. With this move, freeform is now the only purely casual format. Everything is centered on leagues and events. The only thing that has saved Momir basic at this point is that they can occasionally run an event for it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!