Hey all, still lurking here after my 6-3 Open finish last month with the deck. After taking a short break, I want to start grinding the deck a bit more again. I've noticed a few changes recently with some of the higher placing decks, namely:
-Changing land configuration from 12 fetches and 6 fetchable lands to 11 fetches and 7 fetchable lands (minus a Scalding Tarn and plus a second Blood Crypt - is this to help cast Anger more easily?)
-Running 2 Anger of the Gods sideboard (before was zero or only occasionally)
-Running 2 Liliana, the Last Hope sideboard (before was a 1-of)
-Dropping Collective Brutality from the sideboard (was an auto 2-of inclusion)
-Dropping Surgical Extraction in sideboard (was a fairly regular 1-of)
There's some other changes I've noticed recently (a lot more 4-of Angler; 3 Bolt and 2 Stubborn Denial, 2 Fatal Push) but those topics and trends have been discussed at length in the forum. Just curious what you guys think about the above.
Yes the mana base has changed to accomodate a more red heavy list in general (main deck bolts but also sideboard anger, young pyro, grim lavamancer, etc)
Anger is currently being run over kozilek's return because the 3 damage is far more relevant vs humans. The exile clause is also very helpful against hollow one
Last hope has been proving herself as one of the premier grindy options we have and she's been incredibly useful and many players (myself included) have gone up to 2 copies.
Collective brutality was previously needed for burn but there's been a bit less burn in the meta (replaced by creature based aggro) and brutality has been very underwhelming in other matchups. Having a 2 mana duress that doesn't take walkers, artifacts or enchantments isn't very good and the -2/-2 ability isn't as good as having a repeated effect from grim lavamancer for removal.
I don't think surgical was ever a regular card in shadow because it's usually best against combo where we're largely favoured anyway. Leylines or spellbombs have been the graveyard hate of choice for a long time and that's for those that run any yard hate at all. Most lists don't bother
I prefer opt for a few reasons: with 12 fetches scrying 2 cards to the top and still trying to use your mana can be awkward. Opt is also better mid to late game since it gives you more looks at a card right now rather than setting up future draws. The instant speed to bluff denial is also relevant.
That being said I don't think it's objectively the better choice, more personal preference than anything
How are you doing with opt, are you running 4/2 split with visions or vice versa?
After experimenting with the 18 lands and 2 cantrips list I've gone back to 19 lands and run the full playset of opt right now with no visions. I'm really liking the current setup. I got more value out of having the additional cantrips when I used to play pyro in the board but without them I feel it creates a bit too much air in the deck and I'm spinning my wheels more than I would like. If I was to go back up to 6 cantrips (excluding scour) I would most likely favour opt as a 4/2 split personally
Now, does anyone have thoughts on chart a course instead of running the two of opts/visions list?
It gets tricky comparing the two since opt/visions are cantrips whereas course is card advantage.
Opt/visions are one mana spells that replace themselves and in the case of visions helps you set up future draws to either ensure you hit land drops or try to prevent flooding. On that note, I've gone back and forth between the 2 myself and I tend to like opt because of the scry before draw (running as many fetches as we do, getting that second card off the scry can be difficult to wait on) but always seeing 3 cards can't be understated either.
As for chart a course, it's an extra mana and requires us to be attacking to get the most use out of. With our very low threat count that's often easier said than done. If we're attacking with our creatures we're generally pretty far ahead already or we're in a matchup where we need to be aggressive. In either case I don't see what chart a course is doing for us at that point, I'd rather have the earlier or cheaper spell personally. If we needed raw card advantage I'd rather run a more synergistic spell with the deck like painful truths which lets us lose life and the number of cards we get is not dictated by creatures or lack of.
I would argue it just evens out in the mirror since it only kills the delve creatures and not shadow whereas terminate hits both. I think dismember is doubling down too hard on the life loss plan personally and is extremely awkward to flashback.
Has there been a lack of ppl playing the deck, from the various lgs im going to, im the only one playing the deck. Seems after the meta was adjusted for it, its not nearly as dominant as ppl thought
Yeah I think once the band wagon of "best deck in the format" started to die down people jumped onto the next craze. I've seen people that were on shadow for what seemed like a month or 2 now on company, e tron or the new vengevine deck. This is generally a good thing, not having everyone and their grandmother on it puts less of a target on it's back both for other decks as well as any ban list potential.
I also like this change as I've only been on shadow recently and one of the biggest things keeping me from it was that I had no interest in constant mirror matches. Now at my lgs I'm basically the only shadow player and it's nice to face a constant variety of matchups. The only deck in my meta that multiple people are on consistently is burn but I actually like playing that matchup so I'm not complaining.
Its fine to dedicated slots to combat x/1s, no shame in that, but you can do better. If you are thinking of playing Sulfur Elemental, just play Izzet Staticaster instead. It is good against Souls but mops up Noble Hierarchs and Thalias, and craps on Affinity.
My favorite card against Souls is still Liliana the Last Hope, and she is a beast in other matchups as well. Lingering Souls has always been the bane of all types of fair decks, but you don't have to play bad cards to fight it.
Agreed with this, you don't have to play super niche cards since we already have versatile answers. It's not an easy matchup but I don't advise diluting your sideboard just for specifically lingering souls. Sounds like you had good sideboard cards you just didn't find them which is unfortunate but it happens.
Also corey burkhart posted up a poll for his next cfb video and storm beat grixis shadow by 2% which is frustrating. Would have been really interesting to see him play the deck, he talks through his lines very well so it would have been fun to watch.
Do u guys side in Disdainful Stroke, last Hope against Bant Eldrazi? Is Anger of the Gods any good?
Gonna be honest I don't remember the last time I've even played against that deck, seems to have been entirely replaced by e tron at least where I am. That said stroke might be good but if I remember correctly that deck runs more cavern of souls so you risk it becoming a dead card pretty quick as the only targets they have are creatures.
I really like anger and sweepers in general in that matchup but I think lili might be too low impact, depends how many cards you're cutting. The key is to do your best to keep the board clear since they have a very real tendency to flood out and have horrible top decks that don't do much on their own unlike e tron. I think I'd be more comfortable going into the late game against that deck for that reason, our creatures are almost always bigger and there's no troublesome planeswalkers or sweepers to worry about.
Just to clarify on the lotv discussion; I was just explaining why it wouldn't synergise as well but by no means should you not run either card for that reason. If lili is good in your meta absolutely run her, even if it gets uncomfortable sometimes with instant speed interaction or counters she can win games on her own so it can be worth it. I personally don't like her in the main but with the matchups I regularly face she just doesn't do much for me.
Also I disagree with cutting any number of thought scours personally. The only time they're bad is when you already have an active tasigur out since it makes his activations weaker (either they give you the scour back or you use it and put something worse in the yard anyway). Yes our graveyard gets filled naturally but the difference between a turn 2 delve threat and turn 3, 4 or later is significant especially when we need to be very aggressive. I'm not saying it's 100% incorrect to run less than the full playset but I think even 3 just reduces the consistency of those threats too much for my liking. Could very well be wrong though, maybe having a different cantrip is going to be good enough but I won't be testing it myself so let us know how it goes.
As for my deck I've decided I'm actually going to try a 4/2 split favouring opt instead of visions. I like that visions digs one card deeper but sometimes the scry can be awkward with fetches and opt seems better when keeping one land openers which is actually fairly often for me. The instant speed is just the icing on the cake. I don't know what exact numbers are correct there maybe even a 3/3 split would be best. I don't think I'd go with the ari lax build that I've seen people mention recently with 17 lands and the full playset of all 3 cantrips just because I feel that leaves us way too vulnerable to the slightest bit of land destruction. Even a single ghost quarter or spreading seas means you're almost entirely off of red. Maybe I'm being too cautious but I really don't think we should be cutting our actual lands over fetches.
Why doesn't opt work with MD LotV? I don't see much of a difference between Opt and Serum Visions here.
Part of the strength of opt is playing at instant speed on your opponents turn whereas with lili you and your opponent are both going to be hellbent most of the time. You'll be forced to cast it mainphase before upticking her which basically makes it a sorcery anyway.
As others have said I think I'm definitely going to be playing this but replacing sleight instead. Most likely 4/2 split favouring visions at first and then play with the numbers depending on which is more consistent.
Hi guys. How do you deal with Tezzeret/Sword combo decks? Bridge is a pain, academy ruins make kolaghans/counters near useless and grafdiggers cage neuters flashbacks. Any tips for that matchup/sideboard suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
Same as with any combo deck try to max out on all relevant disruption and do your best to get a quick clock going. The faster the game is the better your chances of winning. Grave hate here is very important as well, surgical is by far better than spellbomb for this matchup however. Also regular sweepers are not very good here but temur battle rage is amazing if you run it either in the main or the side, if you don't have battle rage and they've assembled the combo you honestly might as well scoop since they'll have infinite chump blockers.
Yeah I'm conflicted on the article as well. On the one hand he's an amazing player and I actually like quite a few of his suggestions. I'm going to test out trimming one snapcaster mage since it can sometimes be a bit awkward when you're snapcaster flooded with not enough good targets or you just delved a fatty. Amazing card don't get me wrong but maybe 3 is still sufficient we'll see.
On the other hand I completely disagree (as others have pointed out) with cutting denials. The card has been amazing for me and honestly without it and trying to go more "jundish" I would probably just run jund instead and have the increased amount of discard and threat density.
Also tested out lili in the main before. Not for a huge amount of games, granted, but as others pointed out she doesn't help with the matchups we struggle with at all. She's amazing in the mirror but that's more rare these days and most of the creatures you need to edict are sideboard cards from most decks anyway.
I'm gonna be testing out one battle rage in the main instead to see if it deserves a slot again. It gets through chump blockers and helps against decks where we need to be very aggressive such as valakut or to a lesser extent tron. Both those decks can have very annoying chump blockers too in the form of sakura tribe elder and matter reshaper so I think it's worth a shot. I'll post my results when I have enough games to be sure.
Basically he's strongly advocating for young pyromancers in the board among a few other things. I haven't been on the deck for super long but I've ran games with and without pyro in the board and I'm a big fan. I don't think there's room in the main for them but access to them in the side gives us a very nice out to grave hate, pro black creatures, good in the mirror and grindy matchups in general.
Also of note (which helps the pyro plan post board) the list has -1 fetch and -1 wraith for 2 sleight of hands in the main.
For some reason it wasn't letting me post my reply. It was more detailed but I don't wanna rewrite the whole thing so here's the short(er) version:
Be aggressive game 1 but not overly so. It's ok to spend a few turns stripping their hand to maximize the chance your threat sticks.
Post board I like subbing out angler for 2 pyro. Tasigur is much better than angler in this matchup anyway. Pyro is an additional threat that doesn't rely on the graveyard and can force out supreme verdicts on it's own.
Also board in every version of liliana you have. Tough matchup for sure but not unwinnable
Now that the hype for this deck has been going down, i've finally decided to give it a try as i already own all pieces from Grixis Delver and old Suicide Zoo.
I've taken a pretty stock list for my first few test games and so far i like it.
Pyromancer is a pet card of mine and i really like him against Midrange/Control decks so far (against Jeskai/UR he feels worse because of Electrolyze) and represents and additional threat that does not rely on our life total and GY.
I've seen some lists running Deprive over Inquisition of Kozilek, has anyone tried both versions and can provide some input about Deprive in this deck?
Haven't tried it personally put I can see deprive working much better with pyro and playing a little bit closer to your standard Delver lists. Your pyros are in the side so it's not as big of a deal but generally if you're running pyro I think the lists with 2 sleights are going to be better since the extra cantrips are more valuable.
There was a list posted not too long ago with deprive, sleight and pyro in the main over street wraith (along with bolts which again synergise with pyro) so I'd look at starting there if you really wanna make the most of it.