That list, in the current meta, is complete garbage. I refined it for a very Dredge-centric and Combo-centric metagame, it loses hard to most fair decks (like Jund and most Stoneblade lists).
There’s nothing wrong with it. But I believe that making this deck even less resilient to Leyline of the Void and Rest In Peace isn’t exactly where you want to be at.
The opposite. With the addition of Shadow Humans becomes worse, and so Affinity, Dredge/Altarvine, Burn (which is still decent) and any aggressive strategy. BGx, Combo and Ux Control becomes better. It’s basically a matter of the expected metagame.
UW has been a fairly positive matchup, while URx variants tend to be more difficult.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar are meant to have a shot against Lily decks. They’re by far your worst matchup preboard, and BGx have a hard time dealing with it when you’re not already in a losing position. Obviously they’re also good vs Control, but if you want to have another edge specifically with them I would go for Crackling Drake.
I’m still meddling with the list. As of late I played UR Bloo quite intensively, but now that Affinity and Burn are underplayed I’m not sure it’s still better than going Grixis. Humans is a nightmare, though.
Faced Izzet Phoenix (2-1), Bant Spirits (2-0), G-Tron (2-0) and the new AltarVine (2-1).
I’ll state that again: if we want to grind, it’s better to play a different deck. We have to kill the opponent fast while disrupting him. Nothing more than that. I had some very ankward results with the ‘standàrd’ list (a pair of 2-3) cause Snapcaster Mage feels so out of the meta right now, between him being slow and the amount of Surgical/Relic maindecked.
List feels good. Dunno if it’s better than the last one I tried (heavy on Delve threats) but it runs smoothly and bypass Grave hate.
If you want a cc4 hoser, I highly suggest trying Pia and Kiran Nalaar. It’s impactful even when the opponent answers it immediately, and it deals with Etched Champion and Nexuses. Double red is a constraint, but so it is anything which doesn’t read ‘double black’ in this deck.
With a package composed by 3 Baubles, 4 Scours and 2 Lootings (other than more cc1 spells compared to most lists) you'll rarely have issues in casting them. Drawing three Delve creatures in a row may happens, it's just bad luck, but you can either discard them with Looting or keep your threat for a second moment (if it's a grindy match-up, you want every creature you can have access to). Other than that, the two Tasigurs were actually insane. I tested for a while, and I noticed how I wouldn't have been able to deploy one Delve creature on the field fast enough in several situations if it wasn't for them. The split between Banana King and Zombie Fish feels pretty balanced, as you *absolutely need* to be able to cast a threat on turn two (either Shadow or another Fatty) without knowing what is the opponent playing.
@Terminate&Baubles
I go back and forth between Dismember and Terminate, depending on the metagame. I often played one and one. But I noticed how Tarmogoyf and Titans are having a resurgence (BGx, Jund Shadow, Amulet Titan, Scapeshift). Playing Baubles ourselves, opponent's Goyfs are usually bigger than 4/5, and I do want to keep them in check. Terminate also deals with other stuff such as a big Champion of the Parish or Wurmcoil Engine (and yes, it really matters being able to destroy it, Bolt/Push the deathtouch token in game one).
I did start with a configuration of 4 Baubles, 4 Scours, 2 Lootings, with only four Delve threats. I would love to play the fourth Bauble, but every single card in the deck has a given purpose. I definitely won't cut the eighth removal spell from my maindeck. Bolt also helps growing Shadows, by the way, and it can be recycled as a removal on planeswalker, while Lootings help us discarding Pushes against creatureless strategies (other than Tron and Ad Nauseam, not many).
@Snapcaster in the sideboard
As I already said, this deck operates on few lands. I want a two cc spell that can be operative in grindy match-ups. At fist I thought about having 2-3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, which is indeed a two drop and helps against Humans + Spirits. Yet, we are back to the usual problem: it suffers from GH. I want an effective B-plan when my opponents are on black Leylines for game two/three. Other than that, Peezy is a house vs BGx, and the opening turn one discard, turn two Pyromancer has been crazy good for postboard games. We want to stick a threat, most and foremost, even in grindy match-ups. If we only had to take care of Humans, I would choose Jace for sure.
Other than that, I'm evaluating the single Island in the maindeck. With only 8 maindeck blue spells, it may be a second Swamp (cause we definitely need at least two basics, and Mountain is a useless one).
The more we go in a Tempo direction, the less Snapcaster Mage appeals to me. For a certain period I was even playing the fifth (Jace, Vryn's Prodigy) maindeck. That was the time we durdled, with multiple Kommands in the maindeck. That time is over. I often found myself with dead Snappies in hand, casting them on turn two just for the purpose of having another body on the field. They are a great engine, don't get me wrong. But we are a deck which lives on one cc spells. Snapcaster, to have at least a marginal utility, needs to be cast as a three cc spell. An enormity.
2) This is a Jund list without green.
Yes, it is. I'm actually playing Traverse Shadow without green. Fact is, Traverse is such a bad magic card. I played my fair share of Jund Shadow, Sultai Shadow and 4C Shadow. Half the time I would have preferred a cantrip instead of it. Some other times is rendered useless by opponent's grave hate. Some other times drawing into threats instead of... anything else is actually a liability. Other than that, while Tarmogoyf is a very resilient creature, the ability of casting delve treaths for just one mana has made a HUGE difference, in my testing process. Simply put:
a) Scour > Traverse
b) Grixis Mana > 4C Mana (and Stubborn Denial > playing without Stubborn Denial)
c) Tarmogoyf == Gurmag Angler + Tasigur
I DO want, from the Traverse approach, the high number of cc1 plays (7 discard spells + 4 Stubb, other than all the cantrips!) plus the ability to deploy an early threat (so, one more Delve creature to find, and the set 4 Scours + 2 Looting in order to cast them with consistency).
3) What about the sideboard?
This deck can't play the value game in the traditional fashion. You basically operate on 2-4 lands for the whole match (and Looting is actually crazy good at discarding excess mana), so I'm avoid the "planeswalker trap". Young Peezy is important, though, against most grindy match-ups such as Control and BGx (other than acting as an additional threat versus certain typologies of combo decks). You can deploy it on the field on turn two, most of the time, cause it will exacerbate the opponent's removal before they can eat your "real" threats. I do like Spellbomb more than Surgical at the moment, and I would play Leyline as alternative in this list.
I close unbeaten. Very satisfatory result. Humans is probably the worst preboard matchup you can face, when playing with four Stubbs. Four Stubbs were an all-star the whole day, though, against the other archetypes. My sideboard is well tuned for Tron, which I consider a slightly positive match-up, and in testing I absolutely wrecked Phoenix and any kind of Combo deck. GB Rock is nowhere near to Jund's grindy level (though I would much likely play Rock in this meta, and that's good for us) and we can actually overrun them pretty easily unless they have nutdraws, thanks to the low-lands count. I fear more HS Affinity (again, the side is decently tuned for it) and Humans + hard Control.
I do think this should be the future for the archetype, at least in the incoming months.
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If you can't afford Snapcasters, I would suggest you to play a mix between Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Dreadhorde Arcanist. Seasoned Pyromancer is also a very good cart at grinding.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Fiery Islet
4 Street Wraith
4 Death’s Shadow
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Gurmag Angler
Spells (28)
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Thought Scour
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Stubborn Denial
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Terminate
2 Abrade
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Alpine Moon
2 Collective Brutality
Pia and Kiran Nalaar are meant to have a shot against Lily decks. They’re by far your worst matchup preboard, and BGx have a hard time dealing with it when you’re not already in a losing position. Obviously they’re also good vs Control, but if you want to have another edge specifically with them I would go for Crackling Drake.
I’m still meddling with the list. As of late I played UR Bloo quite intensively, but now that Affinity and Burn are underplayed I’m not sure it’s still better than going Grixis. Humans is a nightmare, though.
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
1x Island
2x Steam Vents
2x Watery Grave
2x Blood Crypt
4x Kiln Fiend
4x Thing in the Ice
4x Thoughtseize
4x Stubborn Denial
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Dismember
1x Fatal Push
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Opt
4x Manamorphose
3x Temur Battle Rage
3x Abrade
3x Spell Pierce
3x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4x Surgical Extraction
Faced Izzet Phoenix (2-1), Bant Spirits (2-0), G-Tron (2-0) and the new AltarVine (2-1).
I’ll state that again: if we want to grind, it’s better to play a different deck. We have to kill the opponent fast while disrupting him. Nothing more than that. I had some very ankward results with the ‘standàrd’ list (a pair of 2-3) cause Snapcaster Mage feels so out of the meta right now, between him being slow and the amount of Surgical/Relic maindecked.
List feels good. Dunno if it’s better than the last one I tried (heavy on Delve threats) but it runs smoothly and bypass Grave hate.
EDIT: I posted the wrong manabase, adjusted.
With a package composed by 3 Baubles, 4 Scours and 2 Lootings (other than more cc1 spells compared to most lists) you'll rarely have issues in casting them. Drawing three Delve creatures in a row may happens, it's just bad luck, but you can either discard them with Looting or keep your threat for a second moment (if it's a grindy match-up, you want every creature you can have access to). Other than that, the two Tasigurs were actually insane. I tested for a while, and I noticed how I wouldn't have been able to deploy one Delve creature on the field fast enough in several situations if it wasn't for them. The split between Banana King and Zombie Fish feels pretty balanced, as you *absolutely need* to be able to cast a threat on turn two (either Shadow or another Fatty) without knowing what is the opponent playing.
@Terminate&Baubles
I go back and forth between Dismember and Terminate, depending on the metagame. I often played one and one. But I noticed how Tarmogoyf and Titans are having a resurgence (BGx, Jund Shadow, Amulet Titan, Scapeshift). Playing Baubles ourselves, opponent's Goyfs are usually bigger than 4/5, and I do want to keep them in check. Terminate also deals with other stuff such as a big Champion of the Parish or Wurmcoil Engine (and yes, it really matters being able to destroy it, Bolt/Push the deathtouch token in game one).
I did start with a configuration of 4 Baubles, 4 Scours, 2 Lootings, with only four Delve threats. I would love to play the fourth Bauble, but every single card in the deck has a given purpose. I definitely won't cut the eighth removal spell from my maindeck. Bolt also helps growing Shadows, by the way, and it can be recycled as a removal on planeswalker, while Lootings help us discarding Pushes against creatureless strategies (other than Tron and Ad Nauseam, not many).
@Snapcaster in the sideboard
As I already said, this deck operates on few lands. I want a two cc spell that can be operative in grindy match-ups. At fist I thought about having 2-3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, which is indeed a two drop and helps against Humans + Spirits. Yet, we are back to the usual problem: it suffers from GH. I want an effective B-plan when my opponents are on black Leylines for game two/three. Other than that, Peezy is a house vs BGx, and the opening turn one discard, turn two Pyromancer has been crazy good for postboard games. We want to stick a threat, most and foremost, even in grindy match-ups. If we only had to take care of Humans, I would choose Jace for sure.
Other than that, I'm evaluating the single Island in the maindeck. With only 8 maindeck blue spells, it may be a second Swamp (cause we definitely need at least two basics, and Mountain is a useless one).
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Watery Grave
2x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
1x Island
Creatures (13)
4x Street Wraith
4x Death's Shadow
3x Gurmag Angler
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Thought Scour
3x Mishra's Bauble
2x Faithless Looting
Permission (11)
4x Stubborn Denial
4x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
Removals (8)
4x Fatal Push
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
Others (2)
2x Temur Battle Rage
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Collective Brutality
3x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Abrade
1x Kolaghan's Command
3x Young Pyromancer
Let's analyze it.
1) No Snapcaster Mage? You crazy, bro?
The more we go in a Tempo direction, the less Snapcaster Mage appeals to me. For a certain period I was even playing the fifth (Jace, Vryn's Prodigy) maindeck. That was the time we durdled, with multiple Kommands in the maindeck. That time is over. I often found myself with dead Snappies in hand, casting them on turn two just for the purpose of having another body on the field. They are a great engine, don't get me wrong. But we are a deck which lives on one cc spells. Snapcaster, to have at least a marginal utility, needs to be cast as a three cc spell. An enormity.
2) This is a Jund list without green.
Yes, it is. I'm actually playing Traverse Shadow without green. Fact is, Traverse is such a bad magic card. I played my fair share of Jund Shadow, Sultai Shadow and 4C Shadow. Half the time I would have preferred a cantrip instead of it. Some other times is rendered useless by opponent's grave hate. Some other times drawing into threats instead of... anything else is actually a liability. Other than that, while Tarmogoyf is a very resilient creature, the ability of casting delve treaths for just one mana has made a HUGE difference, in my testing process. Simply put:
a) Scour > Traverse
b) Grixis Mana > 4C Mana (and Stubborn Denial > playing without Stubborn Denial)
c) Tarmogoyf == Gurmag Angler + Tasigur
I DO want, from the Traverse approach, the high number of cc1 plays (7 discard spells + 4 Stubb, other than all the cantrips!) plus the ability to deploy an early threat (so, one more Delve creature to find, and the set 4 Scours + 2 Looting in order to cast them with consistency).
3) What about the sideboard?
This deck can't play the value game in the traditional fashion. You basically operate on 2-4 lands for the whole match (and Looting is actually crazy good at discarding excess mana), so I'm avoid the "planeswalker trap". Young Peezy is important, though, against most grindy match-ups such as Control and BGx (other than acting as an additional threat versus certain typologies of combo decks). You can deploy it on the field on turn two, most of the time, cause it will exacerbate the opponent's removal before they can eat your "real" threats. I do like Spellbomb more than Surgical at the moment, and I would play Leyline as alternative in this list.
----
The tournament.
Swiss.
Round1// G-Tron 2-0
Round2// G-Tron 2-1
Round3// URw Phoenix 2-0
Round4// Abzan Company 2-0
Round5// Humans I.D.
Quarter// GB Rock 2-1
Semi// Spirits 2-1
Final// Amulet Titan 2-0
I close unbeaten. Very satisfatory result. Humans is probably the worst preboard matchup you can face, when playing with four Stubbs. Four Stubbs were an all-star the whole day, though, against the other archetypes. My sideboard is well tuned for Tron, which I consider a slightly positive match-up, and in testing I absolutely wrecked Phoenix and any kind of Combo deck. GB Rock is nowhere near to Jund's grindy level (though I would much likely play Rock in this meta, and that's good for us) and we can actually overrun them pretty easily unless they have nutdraws, thanks to the low-lands count. I fear more HS Affinity (again, the side is decently tuned for it) and Humans + hard Control.
I do think this should be the future for the archetype, at least in the incoming months.