The list doesnt feel like a midrange deck where you want to be in control of the game with lili of the veil.
It's very a kill deck where you want creatures after creature;
Traverse into BBE ---> shadow into kcommand bring back BBE and put some more pressure.
Kcommand help the goal of having 100% of the time a huge creature on board while still being another 2 for 1.
My plan against combo deck is not to destroy their hand with lili. TS + CB combined with DS + TBR is enaugh.
As a jund player, I would love to play lili, but this list isnt her place to my eyes.
I like the list. Some questions to you (and anyone else who has experience)
Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon Where are you bringing these in? What problems are they solving? I ask because you're also running Temur Battle Rage in the board and I feel they work against similar archetypes but maybe I'm just missing something obvious. I'm perfectly ok to be wrong about Blood Moon and realize its where this deck needs to be.
Minister of Pain how is this working out? Why this over something like Golgari Charm? I realize it only hits their stuff and all, but with NOSB this slot seems like it could be something else. I also don't see sacrificing one of the other creatures in this deck for a 2/3 body aside from really odd situations. Again, maybe I'm missing something.
Collective Brutality Why four? Do you have enough decks in your meta to warrant that much? I feel like you could probably drop to three and use a slot for something that can help in some of those matchups but also in others that brutality is not as good.
The idea is that yes, regular jund has better average cascade targets. However, shadow plays significantly more "effective copies" of BBE, and they take advantage of the 3/2 haste body better.
So instead of casting 1 BBE (or 2 in a long game) and having an amazing hit, shadow can reliably cast 3 or 4 because of Traverse and zero mana cantrips and more kcommands than regular jund.
Agree here. Because of this, the BBE build gets to turn 4 and then starts chaining BBE every turn one way or another. Some folks said earlier its more of a Traverse / Tarmogoyf deck than a Shadow deck, which I agree with. Its like being able to tutor for a collected company off a single green mana.
Does someone have tested the match-up vs BBE Jund (with the classical version splashing white in the SB, which should be the best shell against them)?
Regarding the BBE DS list, I am skeptical that we will be better than them in this BBE strategy, I do not see how... This is why I tend to be more interested in the outcome of the match-up with our traditional lists!
I've been testing the match some over the last week and it doesn't feel that great for us. In general, I think the best way to beat Jund is with lingering souls if you can run that card.
I don't know if the BBE version is better than any of the prior iterations of this deck. It plays differently in some ways and similar in others. I would say it has more of an aggressive midrange feel and less of the aggro-combo-tempo feels of the ones with blue and/or white.So far, I am not a huge fan of some of the changes needed to support BBE like dropping some discard, adding land, etc. That said, BBE is the most fun card I've played with in a long time, so it has that going for it. Kolaghans' Command is still a sick card, adding seal of fire / tarfire makes pretty huge goyfs, too.
From my limited experience, it feels like it probably loses to the same things that Jund loses to while also not having a great Jund matchup - but it is hardly alone in that category. Others may have different opinions.
I played the traditional Traverse shadow list this weekend. Top 8ed a 37 person event going 4-0-2 during swiss. The proactive speed of the deck felt very strong. A lot of decks feel too light on early interaction and I think it's actually very well positions right now.
Lost in the quarterfinals in 3 against affinity. Losing to a topdecked cranial plating both games.
The manabase is amazing. Also something that hasn't really been mentioned yet is that the BBE version is a lot easier to play. I know that part of the draw of the deck is that its fun to tinker around with all of these little decisions and such. There's still Bauble/Wraith tricks, but the deck is much less exhausting to play, which is a big plus when you're planning on playing 9 rounds in a day.
You'll never have complicated fetching decisions, you almost always get another BBE if you have the mana to cast her, you don't have to decide when you can and can't leave blue mana up, etc.
I felt the same thing in testing various 3 color BBE versions over the last week as well and forgot to mention it. My brain hurts significantly less with this style of the deck than the 5 color variant. For FNM-length tournaments, it isn't a make or break consideration but playing 9+ round days all those decision trees add up to the overall mental fatigue.
I think you're severely understating the moon effects in this build. You stated your reasoning was your experience with regular jund.
The moon plays out much differently here than in regular jund. You'll have access to the effect a lot more consistently because of traverse, and this deck doesn't rely on manlands as additional threats. You also will almost never screw yourself with it because the deck has 12 fetches and 4 traverse vs Jund's 9ish fetches. This deck is also much better at applying pressure, so the disruption given from the moon is a lot more substantial. Regular jund could give the opponent enough time to draw out of their color screw.
I mean we need something for big mana and such, were you planning on packing a bunch of fulminator instead? I don't think that is as good, but I guess it is an option I can start testing.
EDIT: oh, you want to play TBR in that slot to just kill them instead of trying to disrupt them. Hmm. That's an option I hadn't really considered. That's probably also reasonable. I'm not sure we could actually race them without the blue counter magic, but I guess BBE could also change things.
Yea, I think I would rather just try to race and call it a day. My experience with blood moon against things like tron is its nice as a delay but it doesn't necessarily win the game on its own. Other folks may have different opinions and tactics here. I guess I could have explained my thinking better, but in many ways I agree with this angle posited by geneyquakes:
. Against removal heavy decks where your turn two Goyf often dies, you probably don't want TBR anyway. Against Affinity, Storm, Tron, Valakut and the like - matches where you very much want Battle Rage - your turn two and three creatures are much more likely to be alive when elf flips over a TBR on turn 4, and this will quite often represent lethal.
When fighting linear strategies I would rather just have TBR as my card to board in to rather than something like blood moon. I also am not a huge fan of fulminator mages and am always on the lookout for something better in those slots too. I've gone so far as to replace them with Anathemancer to varying degrees of success at times - again, just looking to push through those last few points of damage rather than simply trying to grind the opp out.
I played about 15-20 games last night with geneyquakes' list last night and had pretty good success against a variety of builds. Some thoughts / comments based on a small sample size:
I liked the list a lot. It is really aggressive and gets to a point where you just BBE the opponent every turn. It has more of a "normal jund" feel to it than some of the 4/5c shadow decks, so I agree it is more of a Traverse deck than a "Shadow" deck. I felt like I was playing Jund but instead of gambling w bob and using him for my CA engine I simply put out huge beaters and searched up BBE after BBE to end the game quickly rather than "durdle" with a 24-25 land midrange build.
The fourth Goyf is definitely needed but I'm not sure where to cut for him yet. The obvious choice is the second Grim Flayer, but I really like the high threat density and Flayer is such a beating in a lot of matchups. I could see the cut also being something like the second Dreadbore.
The mana base was pretty good. The addition of a few basics helps a bunch against Field of Ruin / Path to Exile and also has applications to save some life when needed. The key really is to use Traverse even for basics to ensure you have 4 mana on turn four and then just start the BBE beatings, like geneyquakes mentioned.
For some reason I felt like I couldn't put out Death's Shadow as quickly as I can with the 4/5 color versions. Probably has to do w a somewhat less vital need to shock yourself into oblivion with only 3 colors, but could also just be variance.
I thought I would miss not having any Liliana of the Veil or Inquisition of Kozilek in the 75, but it wasn't that noticeable.
The addition of tribal and enchantment types in Tarfire and Seal of Fire really helps a lot with ensuring Delirium for Traversing to BBEs asap as well as huge goyfs. I don't think I ever swung with smaller than a 5/6 all night.
I'm not a huge fan of the sideboard but its mostly personal preference here. I don't think any of the choices are objectively wrong. Cards I would probably not run based on years of "normal" jund experience and a handful of months of shadow experience:
I would be interested in fitting in some combination of Temur Battle Rage, Liliana of the Veil or Last Hope, Maelstrom Pulse, an extra Collective Brutality or two, Kozileks return or Anger of the Gods in the board over the above choices right now. I feel that TBR is still the best plan against decks where I would want blood moon, and Jund Charm while decent seems better served as a dedicated sweeper effect to me. Given that the main only runs 4 Thoughtseize as its targeted discard I could totally see a world where I would want more than just the two brutalities in the board given their ridiculous versatility.
I spent a lot of time trying to make Grim Flayer work in Jund when he was spoiled and never got consistent delirium until these street wraith / mishra's bauble shells became a reality. During that time I thought about utilizing traverse too since I was jumping through so many hoops to enable delirium but just couldn't see how to fit it in. This variant is kind of what I was trying to get to work but never cracked, so I'm kind of excited to test it more.
What matchups are you bringing in 2 more Snapcaster Mage? Have you tried with just a single in the board and utilizing that slot for something else? Not sure exactly what I would put there, really, just seems that with 3 Snapcaster Mage and 3 Traverse the Ulvenwald you probably have one whenever you need one, no?.
After additional testing, I think I'm closing in on the 75 I will be playing at Indy next weekend. The Bolts have been seriously amazing. I haven't missed the additional mainboard hard removal spells because instead of trying to control their board, I've just reached across the table and finished em off with bolts instead.
I saw someone playing delay at the PT as the additional counter of choice in the sideboard. It fits right in here with the increased focused on the tempo plan already (bolts and snaps) and it has been basically easy to cast counterspell in every game Ive played it so far.
Maybe you addressed this earlier and I missed it; do you miss having Liliana of the Veil in if for nothing more than another card type for Tarmogoyf / Delirium? Seems you could sub 1 Lightning Bolt for a Tarfire to offset that while still enabling the bolt-snap-bolt outs you are going for. I used to run Delay in counter-cat type decks and always loved it. It works even better here, obviously. For all intents and purposes, it is Counterspell to shadow decks.