Im going to test out the manamorphose builds, but im cutting stubborn denials and blue completely out of the 75.
Stub feels bad with all the humans, hollow ones, jund decks around, and the rest of blue cards in the side were usually to fend off tron, control and big mana decks which are on the down low at the moment. Instead ill be running lingering souls package out of the side which feels better against jund, mardu and humans.
1. Is this thought process right? is stub and blue still good enough to keep in the 75 vs white?
2. How do you usually fare with the manamorphose build when it comes to running 17 lands? Do you ever fall short in hitting your second land? 18 felt good enough to consistently keep 1 landers. Do you even run out manamorphose as soon as you hit 2 lands for the cantrip, without knowing if you can draw into anything to make use of the 2 mana?
3. Im debating if I should keep in 2 lotv or add 2 bolts instead. or if i should scrap that completely and bring back 2 stubs into the main.
1 - I was really hesitant to go from lingering souls to the blue version but I just feel like the matchups souls is good in are not the matchups we are going to run into. Stubbs has been very good and even makes the UW Control matchup far more winnable.
2 - typically i manamorphose into what I need to cast the spell I already have in hand, so the Morphose is a free cycle. If I have a thoughtseize and shadow in hand turn two as well as a morphose, I take the opportunity to cycle my morphose for BB and then make the play I was going to make anyway. In the rare cases you have only morphose in hand I will usually cast it for GB since that lets me cast decay, dismember, Traverse + shadow, tarmogoyf, fatal push, basically every card I could draw into other than TBR.
3 - I miss when Lilly was good but I really don't like the card right now and my list has felt better since cutting lotv from the 75
RG Eldrazi matchup is not good, people continue to play Eldrazi Tron for some unknown reason which can be IME slightly unfavoured and rejection is great there, and gaining percentage points against Affinity and good Tron isn't the worst plan considering they're common matchups and aren't any where near easy enough that I wouldn't have anything for them in my board at all.
We're even a dog to Jund without a good way to fix the matchup, just like Twin
I've been playing your morphose version without blue and I've actually found the Jund matchup quite winnable. I'm playing lingering souls in the board and that certainly helps the matchup, but I find that as long as we get off to a decent start they can have trouble keeping up with us since we do so much more in the first few turns than they do and many of their cards actually line up quite poorly against ours in terms of immediate impact on the board. Bolt does virtually nothing except in multiples to our face, scooze requires more investment in mana than they can realistically afford to make it into a credible blocker/attacker, and BBE does draw into a card but until they have 2 on the field to double block isn't really a relevant body at all. If we go discard into threat into interaction + another threat I find the matchup to be totally reasonable as long as we don't fall behind on board, which is doable because of how clunky their deck is compared to ours.
I've adopted the 4 manamorphose 0 Lilly maindeck list and have been very impressed with it as I find I'm hitting my TBRs more often and winning more against stuff like Elves and affinity in game one. For the board I've got 2 Lilly and 4 lingering souls which is what I bring in for control and Jund. I've been liking this configuration quite a lot especially because I find myself stealing a lot of game ones against bad matchups with discard into shadow into TBR.
I'm gonna try it. I think with the way the current meta sits we want to leverage what we do best (disruption and early consistent pressure) vs trying to midrange out with LOTV at least in game one, and I think 4 manamorphose might be correct to cut us down to a 48 card deck which *hopefully* really ups the consistency. Post board I like lingering souls but I've always been more partial to the white splash for souls versus running stubbs.
Honestly if Jace really takes off and we see enough blue based decks to warrant sideboard slots, Choke in the board with discard to clear the way will net enough free wins combined with our bad but not unwinnable game 1s that I am not too worried about Blue based control pushing us out of viability. Back when Twin was a thing choke was a card you could run that would shore up your blue matchups immensely. I'm more concerned with how we beat BBE Jund but honestly it's too early to say. Tomorrow night I'm gonna board in some chokes, lean on lingering souls for the Jund matchup and just run what I've been running for the past few weeks until we have an idea of what we really need to be adjusting for.
Considering the amount of Glacial Fortresses, Seachrome Coasts and Celestial Colonnades in UW decks these days, I think you're massively overrating Choke's effectiveness.
Honestly if Jace really takes off and we see enough blue based decks to warrant sideboard slots, Choke in the board with discard to clear the way will net enough free wins combined with our bad but not unwinnable game 1s that I am not too worried about Blue based control pushing us out of viability. Back when Twin was a thing choke was a card you could run that would shore up your blue matchups immensely. I'm more concerned with how we beat BBE Jund but honestly it's too early to say. Tomorrow night I'm gonna board in some chokes, lean on lingering souls for the Jund matchup and just run what I've been running for the past few weeks until we have an idea of what we really need to be adjusting for.
Considering the amount of Glacial Fortresses, Seachrome Coasts and Celestial Colonnades in UW decks these days, I think you're massively overrating Choke's effectiveness.
The most recent Jeskai list from the top 8 at Lyon ran 6 non island blue sources in 24 lands. For a deck running a number of double blue casting cost spells, they’re more often going to lose to choke than just draw multiple sulfur falls and be able to fetch around choke while being able to play their spells. Choke absolutely swings the matchup enough to be worth 1 or 2 sideboard slots IMo
EDIT: I don’t know what happened with the quote, my apologies
Honestly if Jace really takes off and we see enough blue based decks to warrant sideboard slots, Choke in the board with discard to clear the way will net enough free wins combined with our bad but not unwinnable game 1s that I am not too worried about Blue based control pushing us out of viability. Back when Twin was a thing choke was a card you could run that would shore up your blue matchups immensely. I'm more concerned with how we beat BBE Jund but honestly it's too early to say. Tomorrow night I'm gonna board in some chokes, lean on lingering souls for the Jund matchup and just run what I've been running for the past few weeks until we have an idea of what we really need to be adjusting for.
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1 - I was really hesitant to go from lingering souls to the blue version but I just feel like the matchups souls is good in are not the matchups we are going to run into. Stubbs has been very good and even makes the UW Control matchup far more winnable.
2 - typically i manamorphose into what I need to cast the spell I already have in hand, so the Morphose is a free cycle. If I have a thoughtseize and shadow in hand turn two as well as a morphose, I take the opportunity to cycle my morphose for BB and then make the play I was going to make anyway. In the rare cases you have only morphose in hand I will usually cast it for GB since that lets me cast decay, dismember, Traverse + shadow, tarmogoyf, fatal push, basically every card I could draw into other than TBR.
3 - I miss when Lilly was good but I really don't like the card right now and my list has felt better since cutting lotv from the 75
I've been playing your morphose version without blue and I've actually found the Jund matchup quite winnable. I'm playing lingering souls in the board and that certainly helps the matchup, but I find that as long as we get off to a decent start they can have trouble keeping up with us since we do so much more in the first few turns than they do and many of their cards actually line up quite poorly against ours in terms of immediate impact on the board. Bolt does virtually nothing except in multiples to our face, scooze requires more investment in mana than they can realistically afford to make it into a credible blocker/attacker, and BBE does draw into a card but until they have 2 on the field to double block isn't really a relevant body at all. If we go discard into threat into interaction + another threat I find the matchup to be totally reasonable as long as we don't fall behind on board, which is doable because of how clunky their deck is compared to ours.
The most recent Jeskai list from the top 8 at Lyon ran 6 non island blue sources in 24 lands. For a deck running a number of double blue casting cost spells, they’re more often going to lose to choke than just draw multiple sulfur falls and be able to fetch around choke while being able to play their spells. Choke absolutely swings the matchup enough to be worth 1 or 2 sideboard slots IMo
EDIT: I don’t know what happened with the quote, my apologies