There is another level to that though isn't there.
A commander whose whole job is to make other creatures into mana dorks has more investment than most to play the Engine.
Regardless of what or how powerful the outcomes with it are.
I bet the Reservoir likewise is good in all kinds of decks that gain life because unlike the traditional lifegain wincons you don't have to wait a turn around with it.
While I don't agree with Paradox Engine needing to be banned (or the other two cards needing to be banned) PoK was not banned because it was "unfun by itself".
PoK and PE are very similar cards in a lot of ways it is why the comparisons kind of work. There are games I have played against both of these cards and they have floundered and done little because they are both engines surrounded by bigger things.
The ease of accessing the power of those engines is what is being discussed here.
(also framing the differences between cEDH and not as purely a function of budget removes a lot of the history of MTG cards, it is how people build and play and not what they build and play that determines the style of deck)
It should be noted that any data for or against what you believe in a thread like this taken from a website is taken from a self selected smaller much more into the game group of people who decide they want to put their list of cards online and think about the game beyond when the game ends or when the store is left.
There is a huge bias in that data or any data of the sort.
This thread was made exactly a month after the card was printed and it has been doing more or less the same thing every since then, I just don't see it an also I rarely see people groan when it gets cast.
It is weird but for cards like this the longer they stay unbanned the less I want them banned because of how price fluctuates irt to Commander and cards that are largely only played in this format.
Especially in the case of Engine because it was doing this same ***** since the day it was printed, I have valiantly whenever I have built it designed the deck to go very smoothly once it resolves, mostly work.
Most of the times I am worried about a Engine coming down I am more worried about Scepter / Reversal coming down earlier, but I guess that is what makes me even looking at threads here weird because I mostly play on levels outside of the purview.
That being said I still think generally to go off with Engine it requires so many pieces that it feels like a win-more, and if used fairly you are getting a couple extra things out of it and the turn doesn't go on forever.
Also any complaints about durdling imo don't really belong in ban list talks because it applies across so many strategies and also is making some pretty strong assumptions about what normal levels of play speed and turn length are which is often a very slippery slope.
Regardless of what kind of Commander you play (generally and most games believe it or not I am not playing cEDH even though I can put together a deck that would fit those criteria even though I never know exactly what they refer too) the impulse to want to play better to improve your deck generally always exists and in a game like magic what that typically means is that over time the deck becomes faster, now if that fast is Diabolic Tutor -> Demonic Tutor (for the most 1to1 example) typically depends on the person and the budget and desire to put stuff into the deck. The desire and want to do this does not nessisarily mean you want to play cEDH that is what people generally mean when people tend to fall into a binary on this format that people only exist in either the most cutthroat or the most casual.
Also maybe I am assuming to much but to me the power dynamics and the whether telling someone what you think about the format changes quite a bit when it is people who shape the format (a fact I don't think would be a secret from all involved in this game).
You also shouldn't do what you accuse me of and and assume the types of games I play and the people I play with. I play with everywhere from people opening the box to people playing thousands of dollar land sultai land decks, the games we have therefore can and have ended in 2-4 turns or gone on for hours depending on the people in the game and make up of hands and decks (yes even the more competitive games have gone that long). Part of making something that much faster also makes it that much more vulnerable to the right piece of disruption at the right time (that Stifle in the paragraph is a good example (also generally not a card I would think tends to make more casual lists especially when cards like Disallow exist if I am being honest)). We mix up players and pods and talk all the while about the game and whatever else and we also don't require anyone to play into any sort of standard as long as the decks fit in the rules of magic and commander. Now obviously typically the people who only have access to more higher powered things tend to play against each other because it makes the games more satisfying that is generally a given when you have a bunch of people in a room that want to play magic, the people who know each other better or who play on the same power levels tend to stick together.
I have a lot less problems seeing the whole thing as I said but it still rubs a bit wrong and I can't shake that but again it isn't really important to how I play Commander at all these days.
That is some hot bull***** right there and it probably isn't the thread for but trying to influence people away from how they want to build a deck seems really messed up to me.
I don't mean to sound rude here, but do you realize how ironic this sounds? The gentleman's agreement is virtually baked into the format.
That isn't being rude but it is also a discussion I have had on here about this a bunch, the format has changed and moved on from what it was in large part thanks to Wizards larger involvement in promoting it, it retains some aspects of what it was before but trying to use any of that to influence how people want to play Commander 2018 that isn't one the rules or two The banlist is if I am being honest is still hot bull*****.
Also making a deck want to do its thing 'faster' isn't breaking any gentlemen's agreements or anything it is enforcing a narrow version of this format on all around you and is horse*****.
EDIT: Reading the actual statement is better but still feels insidious to me, just making something faster isn't a guarantee of anything in this format and often going all in to that degree leaves the person more often more open to bad draws or if their plan is disrupted they have little footing to work with.
My problem with that full statement is it has a weird binary way of looking at things and assumes that games only run at two speeds, and also that it is impossible for the two kinds of decks to play agreeably in a game together.
Like the idea that a statement like "I want this to run faster and better" is the kind of thing that takes someone from a RC approved form of Commander and a "cutthroat" deck is also patently ridiculous.
Bro, you're reading it wrong. The PE player, after losing, immediately reflected that he had to figure out how to win with it faster (meaning how to get the combo online at an earlier turn), and the RC let him know that isn't what the format is designed for. They also said that some people like that and should be able to play that way, but they shouldn't expect to walk into just any group and expect it to fly. They showed the guy their ideal of the format, and explained it will different from group to group, and that their ideal works as a baseline for strangers but isn't hard and fast and can be changed with communication.
Look, I play a lot online, where budget restrictions are much less of an issue and a much higher percentage of players can afford to run tuned decks. Random pick up matches tend to land where the RC aims the format. Sometimes you get a guy running a tuned deck, rarely you get the whole table that way in a random match. The lone tuned deck usually just wins or gets stopped and quits by turn 6 if they haven't won. Sometimes someone runs a more prison type deck or a combo that isn't the focus of the deck (not trying to search it up to win asap). It's usually fine, but sometimes people get butthurt. In real life, you can avoid that by discussing things before hand.
Remember, this is a social game, nobody is required to cater to your tastes. The RC tries to promote a baseline experience that is broadly enjoyed and then encourages you and your playgroup to fine tune it to your needs. You should really have a deck or a few that is your ideal, a deck or two that is RCs baseline for strangers in case your tastes don't fly elsewhere.
This fantasy you are constructing is not true anywhere I have played Commander. Also as I said in the post you are quoting with the EDIT being the bit after I read the full passage.
It is still insidious to manage someones desire to make their deck faster and better regardless of how you try and couch it later. Also again Commander isn't some binary that only exists within Turn 3 and Turn 13 (and even trying to break it down into turns is the most foolish thing in the universe).
That is some hot bull***** right there and it probably isn't the thread for but trying to influence people away from how they want to build a deck seems really messed up to me.
I don't mean to sound rude here, but do you realize how ironic this sounds? The gentleman's agreement is virtually baked into the format.
That isn't being rude but it is also a discussion I have had on here about this a bunch, the format has changed and moved on from what it was in large part thanks to Wizards larger involvement in promoting it, it retains some aspects of what it was before but trying to use any of that to influence how people want to play Commander 2018 that isn't one the rules or two The banlist is if I am being honest is still hot bull*****.
Also making a deck want to do its thing 'faster' isn't breaking any gentlemen's agreements or anything it is enforcing a narrow version of this format on all around you and is horse*****.
EDIT: Reading the actual statement is better but still feels insidious to me, just making something faster isn't a guarantee of anything in this format and often going all in to that degree leaves the person more often more open to bad draws or if their plan is disrupted they have little footing to work with.
My problem with that full statement is it has a weird binary way of looking at things and assumes that games only run at two speeds, and also that it is impossible for the two kinds of decks to play agreeably in a game together.
Like the idea that a statement like "I want this to run faster and better" is the kind of thing that takes someone from a RC approved form of Commander and a "cutthroat" deck is also patently ridiculous.
That is some hot bull***** right there and it probably isn't the thread for but trying to influence people away from how they want to build a deck seems really messed up to me.
It is cheaper CMC wise and the pieces of it are tutorable so it is easy to slot into a lot of decks that run signets and a sol ring and other mana rocks / dorks.
Also the Paradox Engine thing requires spells to make mana where as if you have 3 mana in rocks and the Scepter combo you can make a big storm or a lot of mana without having a hand full of spells.
A commander whose whole job is to make other creatures into mana dorks has more investment than most to play the Engine.
Regardless of what or how powerful the outcomes with it are.
I bet the Reservoir likewise is good in all kinds of decks that gain life because unlike the traditional lifegain wincons you don't have to wait a turn around with it.
PoK and PE are very similar cards in a lot of ways it is why the comparisons kind of work. There are games I have played against both of these cards and they have floundered and done little because they are both engines surrounded by bigger things.
The ease of accessing the power of those engines is what is being discussed here.
(also framing the differences between cEDH and not as purely a function of budget removes a lot of the history of MTG cards, it is how people build and play and not what they build and play that determines the style of deck)
There is a huge bias in that data or any data of the sort.
Especially in the case of Engine because it was doing this same ***** since the day it was printed, I have valiantly whenever I have built it designed the deck to go very smoothly once it resolves, mostly work.
That being said I still think generally to go off with Engine it requires so many pieces that it feels like a win-more, and if used fairly you are getting a couple extra things out of it and the turn doesn't go on forever.
Also any complaints about durdling imo don't really belong in ban list talks because it applies across so many strategies and also is making some pretty strong assumptions about what normal levels of play speed and turn length are which is often a very slippery slope.
Also maybe I am assuming to much but to me the power dynamics and the whether telling someone what you think about the format changes quite a bit when it is people who shape the format (a fact I don't think would be a secret from all involved in this game).
You also shouldn't do what you accuse me of and and assume the types of games I play and the people I play with. I play with everywhere from people opening the box to people playing thousands of dollar land sultai land decks, the games we have therefore can and have ended in 2-4 turns or gone on for hours depending on the people in the game and make up of hands and decks (yes even the more competitive games have gone that long). Part of making something that much faster also makes it that much more vulnerable to the right piece of disruption at the right time (that Stifle in the paragraph is a good example (also generally not a card I would think tends to make more casual lists especially when cards like Disallow exist if I am being honest)). We mix up players and pods and talk all the while about the game and whatever else and we also don't require anyone to play into any sort of standard as long as the decks fit in the rules of magic and commander. Now obviously typically the people who only have access to more higher powered things tend to play against each other because it makes the games more satisfying that is generally a given when you have a bunch of people in a room that want to play magic, the people who know each other better or who play on the same power levels tend to stick together.
I have a lot less problems seeing the whole thing as I said but it still rubs a bit wrong and I can't shake that but again it isn't really important to how I play Commander at all these days.
This fantasy you are constructing is not true anywhere I have played Commander. Also as I said in the post you are quoting with the EDIT being the bit after I read the full passage.
It is still insidious to manage someones desire to make their deck faster and better regardless of how you try and couch it later. Also again Commander isn't some binary that only exists within Turn 3 and Turn 13 (and even trying to break it down into turns is the most foolish thing in the universe).
That isn't being rude but it is also a discussion I have had on here about this a bunch, the format has changed and moved on from what it was in large part thanks to Wizards larger involvement in promoting it, it retains some aspects of what it was before but trying to use any of that to influence how people want to play Commander 2018 that isn't one the rules or two The banlist is if I am being honest is still hot bull*****.
Also making a deck want to do its thing 'faster' isn't breaking any gentlemen's agreements or anything it is enforcing a narrow version of this format on all around you and is horse*****.
EDIT: Reading the actual statement is better but still feels insidious to me, just making something faster isn't a guarantee of anything in this format and often going all in to that degree leaves the person more often more open to bad draws or if their plan is disrupted they have little footing to work with.
My problem with that full statement is it has a weird binary way of looking at things and assumes that games only run at two speeds, and also that it is impossible for the two kinds of decks to play agreeably in a game together.
Like the idea that a statement like "I want this to run faster and better" is the kind of thing that takes someone from a RC approved form of Commander and a "cutthroat" deck is also patently ridiculous.
The Scepter-Reversal Method has more overhead for sure but the mana is infinite once it begins so you need less things once it is running.
Also the Paradox Engine thing requires spells to make mana where as if you have 3 mana in rocks and the Scepter combo you can make a big storm or a lot of mana without having a hand full of spells.