As a point of interest since cEDH has been brought up a few times in regards to Dox Engine, a tournament took place this weekend and here's some information from it.
Out of the 31 decks/players 9 played Dox Engine, almost one third.
However, there where around 22 unique strategies (I was a bit conservative, so maybe like 25 if you're more liberal). Out these 22 strategies, only 5 used Paradox Engine, so down to around 20~25%.
The decks that used it were:
Paradox Scepter Urza (4 decks)
Paradox Scepter Thrasios (2 decks)
Arcum Dagson (1 deck)
Breya (1 deck)
4c Rashmi / Curious control (1 deck)
All of them use it primarily as a wincon, either it's own after getting a critical mass of dorks/rocks, in combination with Isochron Scepter to just make infinite mana + cast any number of copies of a spell, or to create some sort of loop as in the case of Arcum. It's usually not just a value piece.
For some more information, the top 8 was composed of:
1-2) 2 The First Sliver Food Chain
3) Thrasios/Tymna Hulk
4) Thras/Vial Smasher Hulk
5-8) Tymna/Kraum Divergent Transformation
5-8) Maelstrom Wanderer (looks like Kiki Jiki lines were the focus)
5-8) Paradox Scepter Urza
5-8) Consultation Kess
So only one of the decks using Paradox Scepter, and they did not make it to top 4 (not sure what their final standing was, sorry).
You should be able to filter by cards, ie shove in Mana Cryp and Mox Diamond in addition to the legendary and you should get more results in line with actual cEDH.
I wouldn't think so, we already have Dox Engine x Dramatic scepter, which is essentially a two card win, and it hasnt been a real issue, not sure why it would change with worse cards. Dox Engine Twanos could be nifty, but I doubt it be an issue if Jhoira hasn't been one.
From a competitive standpoint, paradox engine has been much much stronger than the green big stuffs cards we've seen banned in the past. Paradox engine created entire archetypes that are designed to just get paradox engine out as fast as possible and win on the spot.
Paradox engine can and will absolutely make the entire game about paradox engine if your deck can draw cards well. You are almost certainly about to take the next 10 minutes playing out your turn when this happens. To pull this off, you need the same mana rocks you are probably running anyways, and the same card draw you are probably running anyways.
Your definition of regular card isn't consistent. POK requires you to have creatures to cast every turn and that it isn't removed. Leovold requires you to have wheels. Primeval and Sylvan require the game to proceed at a slower pace to be valuable. All of these cards have power that can vary depending on both the deck they are in and the current board state, which is the same definition you used to shoot down paradox engine.
Competitive standpoints don't matter to the RC, and even if it did most real cEDH decks don't run it. The fact that there are decks literally built to play with it is another good reason why it should stay, format diversity.
It's not the same thing. Titan and Primordial made EVERYONE's game about them. Everyone would start trying to steal, clone, kill, or revive them for value. Sure, decks wouldn't change much by just adding a Dox Engine to it, but that's not a guarantee that it'd actually be good in the deck, if that was the case everyone would be running it.
PoK doesn't require anything. Just being able to untap is good enough, the flash is what pushes it over the top. (You also always have access to your commander so theres that too). It also tended to centralize games similarly to Titan and Primordial. And those last two don't require a slower game at all, they just need the deck to have green, if it was legal again almost every green deck would rejam them in because of the tempo swing and abusability they provide at any point of the game.
Again, if your playgroup doesn't like it just talk to the person playing it. The only box this card should be maybe be ticked for the RC on this card is "Creates Undesirable Game States (Losing is not an undesirable game state)", because of the potential durdling. But when you look at the amount of cards that are currently legal that extend the game by over half an hour in casual decks, it's utterly ridiculous to ban Dox Engine for that.
As a side note, it's pretty amusing how some people say that running more removal isn't an answer when across their listed decks theres a grand total of only 4 instant speed removals. How do you expect cards to not beat you if you can't interact on the stack at all?
They're nothing alike with the exception that they untap things. For Dox Engine to win on the spot the person needs: at least 3~4 mana rocks on board, and one or more cards in play or in hand that let him continue to draw or some kind of reusable tutor like Yisan or maybe Pod or lots of cards in hand, a boardstate like that should be causing people to be casting worried glances in that direction anyways. PoK, on the other hand, only requires you to have her in play in order to start letting you take turns during everyone elses turns.
Sure Dox Engine can cause turns to durdle a bit even if the person doesn't end up winning, but if your group does't like it then just talk to the player, thats what the "social contract" aspect of the format is supposed to be?
Like honestly, if cards are going to start getting banned because they win with "things you're already running" then you may as well ban Createrhoof Behemoth, as he can win 'out of nowhere' with just a couple of creatures out, or either Isochron Scepter or Dramatic Reversal as they're far stronger than Dox Engine, albeit its two cards.
Other people have already mentioned that they haven't had issued with Dox Engine. Why that is who knows, but t's not Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial which degenerate the entire flow of the game around them, it's not PoK which lets you essentially take 4 turns to everyone elses single turn, it's not the overly costed spells that invalidate the rest of the game, or Braids or Leovold which can easily turn the entire game into a long durdle or lock people out of playing. It's a regular card whose power can vary depending on both the deck it's in and the current boardstate.
Omniscience costs 10 mana, paradox engine costs 5 and lets you float mana for activations and x-spells. At the low low cost of playing good mana rocks. Paradox engine is about 1000% better than omniscience in EDH.
Wrong. To do Season's Past loops I'd need around 6 mana from rocks/dorks vs just omniscence. Six mana from rocks/dorks + 5 opening mana for the Dox Engine is also more than the three I'd need for Isochron Scepter x Dramatic Reversal, which also needs 3 mana less to get into play. So not only is Dox Engine not always better than Omniscience, it's not even always better than it's more similar equivalents. (As a side note dox engine with isochron scepter is probably fun as sh*t)
People already play Tooth and Nail, Omniscience, DEN, Craterhoof Behemoth, Insurrection, Sepulchral Primordial, Mikaeus x sac outlet x ballista. This is just more of the same. At worst it does absolutely nothing, normally it reduces your spells by X, where X is the amount of mana you can produce from non-land sources, and at best it can carry your deck to victory. If you don't like it cut it from your deck (like how someone else said they did above), talk to the person using it, or answer it or the cards it needs to win.
Also with that example of yours, if you actually drew a god hand like that, because thats 4 cards + the dox engine + something that you can chain to win, you honestly deserve to win, lol.
The other banned cards that you mentioned, except Painter's, can be easily slotted into any decks in their colors and do work. Paradox engine shouldn't be banned precisely because not every deck can support it.
And again, a player can spend around 7-8 mana uninterrupted, he should be winning anyways. If they're casting a Dox engine and it survives a whole round... That's on you, lol.
Yeah, paradox engine is not very good if your goal is to combo out on turn 3 every game like a pro.
Paradox Engine in Arcum Dagson is very good if your goal is to combo out on turn 3 every game like a pro.
Dox Engine is a decent card that shouldn't really be an issue unless you're playing crawwurm.dec with no removal. Any play that wins with it requires at least 7 mana in a single turn to pull off, if not more. That much mana should in fact be netting you a win or a huge swing in advantage.
Sidisi was the first place I tried it and I expected it to at worst be a pseudo vigilance enabler for the tokens, and at best make tons of mana by untapping my land untappers and reusing bouncelanda or Cabal Coffers. However it mostly just felt win-more when it worked, and not worth the mana when it would just give "vigilance".
Next, in a search to break it, I moved it into the Sharuum deck. Here I just expected it to work as an expensive really good mana rock that I could recur... And it played exactly that way. Not too bad but not great. So on continued its journey.
Third, I decided to try it in the Yisan deck after hearing one of the people in my playgroup mention the combination. After moving it from the two decks I originally intended to play it in I wasn't too hopeful. That is, until the first time I played it permitted a turn 4 win that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. Between the mana dorks, cheap spells in my hand, and Yisan constantly untapping I managed to draw enough cards to get a Cloudstone Curio and proceed to make infinite mana and draw until I got a Createrhoof Behemoth for the win. It hasn't left the deck, lol.
Similar plays have happened a couple of times, but between not using the deck a lot since I don't think it's particularly fun to play against and not having anyway of effectively tutoring for it, I haven't been able to see how good it would be "normally".
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Out of the 31 decks/players 9 played Dox Engine, almost one third.
However, there where around 22 unique strategies (I was a bit conservative, so maybe like 25 if you're more liberal). Out these 22 strategies, only 5 used Paradox Engine, so down to around 20~25%.
The decks that used it were:
Paradox Scepter Urza (4 decks)
Paradox Scepter Thrasios (2 decks)
Arcum Dagson (1 deck)
Breya (1 deck)
4c Rashmi / Curious control (1 deck)
All of them use it primarily as a wincon, either it's own after getting a critical mass of dorks/rocks, in combination with Isochron Scepter to just make infinite mana + cast any number of copies of a spell, or to create some sort of loop as in the case of Arcum. It's usually not just a value piece.
For some more information, the top 8 was composed of:
1-2) 2 The First Sliver Food Chain
3) Thrasios/Tymna Hulk
4) Thras/Vial Smasher Hulk
5-8) Tymna/Kraum Divergent Transformation
5-8) Maelstrom Wanderer (looks like Kiki Jiki lines were the focus)
5-8) Paradox Scepter Urza
5-8) Consultation Kess
So only one of the decks using Paradox Scepter, and they did not make it to top 4 (not sure what their final standing was, sorry).
Clarification edit: the tournament was played in 4-man pods as much as possible and with the EDH rules as defined by the RC, ie nothing was modified in deckbuilding or rules.
More edits: the decklists jic anyone wants them: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11UByAJD6LCuV5tsZ56eDzY0iAPjHwH6d5KCxY6cl4n8/edit#gid=0
Competitive standpoints don't matter to the RC, and even if it did most real cEDH decks don't run it. The fact that there are decks literally built to play with it is another good reason why it should stay, format diversity.
It's not the same thing. Titan and Primordial made EVERYONE's game about them. Everyone would start trying to steal, clone, kill, or revive them for value. Sure, decks wouldn't change much by just adding a Dox Engine to it, but that's not a guarantee that it'd actually be good in the deck, if that was the case everyone would be running it.
PoK doesn't require anything. Just being able to untap is good enough, the flash is what pushes it over the top. (You also always have access to your commander so theres that too). It also tended to centralize games similarly to Titan and Primordial. And those last two don't require a slower game at all, they just need the deck to have green, if it was legal again almost every green deck would rejam them in because of the tempo swing and abusability they provide at any point of the game.
Again, if your playgroup doesn't like it just talk to the person playing it. The only box this card should be maybe be ticked for the RC on this card is "Creates Undesirable Game States (Losing is not an undesirable game state)", because of the potential durdling. But when you look at the amount of cards that are currently legal that extend the game by over half an hour in casual decks, it's utterly ridiculous to ban Dox Engine for that.
As a side note, it's pretty amusing how some people say that running more removal isn't an answer when across their listed decks theres a grand total of only 4 instant speed removals. How do you expect cards to not beat you if you can't interact on the stack at all?
Sure Dox Engine can cause turns to durdle a bit even if the person doesn't end up winning, but if your group does't like it then just talk to the player, thats what the "social contract" aspect of the format is supposed to be?
Like honestly, if cards are going to start getting banned because they win with "things you're already running" then you may as well ban Createrhoof Behemoth, as he can win 'out of nowhere' with just a couple of creatures out, or either Isochron Scepter or Dramatic Reversal as they're far stronger than Dox Engine, albeit its two cards.
Other people have already mentioned that they haven't had issued with Dox Engine. Why that is who knows, but t's not Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial which degenerate the entire flow of the game around them, it's not PoK which lets you essentially take 4 turns to everyone elses single turn, it's not the overly costed spells that invalidate the rest of the game, or Braids or Leovold which can easily turn the entire game into a long durdle or lock people out of playing. It's a regular card whose power can vary depending on both the deck it's in and the current boardstate.
Wrong. To do Season's Past loops I'd need around 6 mana from rocks/dorks vs just omniscence. Six mana from rocks/dorks + 5 opening mana for the Dox Engine is also more than the three I'd need for Isochron Scepter x Dramatic Reversal, which also needs 3 mana less to get into play. So not only is Dox Engine not always better than Omniscience, it's not even always better than it's more similar equivalents. (As a side note dox engine with isochron scepter is probably fun as sh*t)
Also with that example of yours, if you actually drew a god hand like that, because thats 4 cards + the dox engine + something that you can chain to win, you honestly deserve to win, lol.
And again, a player can spend around 7-8 mana uninterrupted, he should be winning anyways. If they're casting a Dox engine and it survives a whole round... That's on you, lol.
Paradox Engine in Arcum Dagson is very good if your goal is to combo out on turn 3 every game like a pro.
Dox Engine is a decent card that shouldn't really be an issue unless you're playing crawwurm.dec with no removal. Any play that wins with it requires at least 7 mana in a single turn to pull off, if not more. That much mana should in fact be netting you a win or a huge swing in advantage.
Sidisi was the first place I tried it and I expected it to at worst be a pseudo vigilance enabler for the tokens, and at best make tons of mana by untapping my land untappers and reusing bouncelanda or Cabal Coffers. However it mostly just felt win-more when it worked, and not worth the mana when it would just give "vigilance".
Next, in a search to break it, I moved it into the Sharuum deck. Here I just expected it to work as an expensive really good mana rock that I could recur... And it played exactly that way. Not too bad but not great. So on continued its journey.
Third, I decided to try it in the Yisan deck after hearing one of the people in my playgroup mention the combination. After moving it from the two decks I originally intended to play it in I wasn't too hopeful. That is, until the first time I played it permitted a turn 4 win that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. Between the mana dorks, cheap spells in my hand, and Yisan constantly untapping I managed to draw enough cards to get a Cloudstone Curio and proceed to make infinite mana and draw until I got a Createrhoof Behemoth for the win. It hasn't left the deck, lol.
Similar plays have happened a couple of times, but between not using the deck a lot since I don't think it's particularly fun to play against and not having anyway of effectively tutoring for it, I haven't been able to see how good it would be "normally".