Isnt there a third alternative, to maybe leave in 1-2 inquisitions or 1 thoughtseize? To be able to nab a threat or spell from opponent late game is kinda good too!
In late game when you opponent draw a good spell such as LotV or a creature, he will play it so, because discard is Sorcery speed, it's not interesting.
The only interesting play in late game is playing Kolaghan's Command just after your opponent draw step to make him discard and bring back a creature from your GY.
Against Humans, I play 2 sweepers (1 Anger of the gods and 1 Damnation) post side, LtLH to ping Phantasmal Image and some value spells such as Kitchen Finks or Pulse of Murasa.
I take out all my discards and 2 LotV, I play as a control player : kill everything until they are exausted then kill them with your manland or unanswered creature.
In :
+1 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana the Last Hope
+1 Pulse of Murasa
+1 Anger of the gods
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Damnation
+2 Collective Brutality
Out :
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Liliana of the Veil
I don't like to cut a small part of my discard (except against Burn) because discard is efficient at the begin of the game so you reduce your probability to have some in your opening hand when you diminish their numbers.
About keeping discard in mirror match, I agree with LEH.
Mirror match is just how do you manage the game, what do you want to "feed" your opponent and what do you want to keep.
And it often finishes in a good old top deck war, in which discard spell are just awful.
For the mirror, here are my In / Out :
In :
+2 Fulminator Mage
+1 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana the Last Hope
+1 Pulse of Murasa
+1 Damnation
Out :
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-3 Thoughtseize
I bring Fulminator because they are great chump blocker to earn some time when you are behind or to cut a colour.
It permits to deal with manlands too so you can keep your removal spells for creature threats.
LtLH and Pulse of Murasa permit to bring back key creature (Scavenging Ooze, Dark Confidant or Tireless Tracker).
Damnation is a life insurance if we are far behind, to reset the game. As said before, Jund mirror is a top deck war and you can easily flood when your opponent just draw threats.
If your opponent plays a lot of creatures at the beginning of the game and you don't, to clear the board will give you an advantage because you'll have more creatures to draw than him after it.
Regarding Fulminator Mage I agree it's not the best against Tron. 3 mana to keep them off Tron is a lot and they are consistent enough at assembling tron that they will very likely have it again the next turn. Slowing them down for a turn probably won't be enough most of the time anyway. Fulminator Mage is good against Tron if you pair him with Surgical Extraction otherwise they will have tron sooner or later.
However, the thing is that I like Fulminator Mage against UWx control too but maybe control isn't enough played at the moment to justify playing Fulminator Mage but I'm not sure about control numbers.
When I look at the list of Joel Larsson or Christian Calcano, they both play 4 Fulminator Mage and 2 Surgical Extraction in their SB.
Surgical Extraction is pretty well positioned in this moment when you see combo decks such as KCI or Storm, or big mana decks such as Tron or Scapeshift, which are well positioned against Jund.
I expect the come back of Living End too, the deck is strong against Jund and Surgical is a great answer to it.
Here is the list I've tested with my team mates for the last week :
The match up against mono-G Tron is balance post-side.
Against Burn, Pulse of Murasa takes the place of an usual second Kitchen Finks cause of the instant speed.
The fact that Field of Ruins is played a lot is an other reason to play Pulse of Murasa, to bring back a land for having your missing colour is cool (or to bring back a BBE at instant speed, just like K. Command).
"The fact that Jund is so popular right now piss me off too because I see soooo many bad or medium players trying to pilot our deck just because BBE was unbanned ..."
This is a pretty bad attitude. It's kind of reminds me of a hipster-like mentality- the thing that you liked (jund) became popular and a lot of people started to enjoy it- all of a sudden you start to hate those people because jund is mainstream now. Rather than focus on others, maybe you should focus on winning GPs and making the pro tour if you're so much better than everyone else who plays jund is.
"The fact that Jund is so popular right now piss me off too because I see soooo many bad or medium players trying to pilot our deck just because BBE was unbanned ..."
This is a pretty bad attitude. It's kind of reminds me of a hipster-like mentality- the thing that you liked (jund) became popular and a lot of people started to enjoy it- all of a sudden you start to hate those people because jund is mainstream now. Rather than focus on others, maybe you should focus on winning GPs and making the pro tour if you're so much better than everyone else who plays jund is.
Calm down, kid (you'll have a heart attack).
So, if I follow your lead, just people who win GP or PT are good players ?
That's not a lot of people ...
I've made my first Day 2 at GP and my first Pro Points some years ago, the hard way (with no Bye at this moment), with Jund which is the only deck I've played for the last 4 years (exception for GP Lyon, last month, during which I've played 5c Good Stuff for a 4-2 into 8-2 into 8-7 => I'm definitively not the best player of the world)
So, I just say it's sad to see so many players piloting my beloved deck which used to be based on skill and knowledge.
That's just my opinion and you don't have to be agree with me (it's called "democracy")
I've got a question for you guys : what are your real feelings about BBE ?
Personally I find the card strong but we are no more in a proactive / reactive way to play our deck than we used to be.
I see so many streamers / players casting their BBE like : "Just turn the wheel and cross fingers to hit what we need" whereas we used to build our strategy and keep in hand needed cards for specific threats.
The fact that Jund is so popular right now piss me off too because I see soooo many bad or medium players trying to pilot our deck just because BBE was unbanned ...
I start to miss the era before unbanning when I played at a GP a T1 Raging Ravine then a T2 Dark Confidant, my opponent looked at me : "Oh ! Traditionnal Jund player still exist ?"
What are your thoughts about this statement ?
Gus
Truthfully, it's kind of a snobby attitude. Feeling like a snowflake because we continued to play a bad deck when Grixis/Traverse Shadow is a bad attitude. This deck isn't some VIP club, even though the deck's price is absurd. I did trash this deck last year, but I still played it. Nearly everything I said about Jund, Junk and Shadow was completely right in 2016. Luckily one guy doesn't frequent the Jund thread anymore, but one idiot laughed at me when I said Jund was basically dead and he laughed at me when Jund had a 5-0 on MTGO a week later. Everyone was excited about fatal push except me.
Jund is definitely good again. Less than 4x BBE is just wrong, man. Sometimes we do have to spin the wheel, especially if we have nothing better in our hand. The deck is definitely more proactive, that 3/2 haste has mattered.
I don't care if bad players pilot the deck, I care when bad players go on here or the Jund Facebook group and give extremely bad and misinformed advice. The Facebook page is a mess, but it was useful when Jund was struggling.
Still no clue what the removal suite should look like...
I do agree with
25 Lands. I also would prefer 6 discard.
If we only play 2x Scooze we should at minimum play 3x graveyard hate in the sideboard.
I'm still not sure how to feel about the 2nd pulse. I also don't know how to feel about only playing 1x Terminate. Dreadbore is trash and we don't need it, it doesn't belong in Jund.
I still haven't tested out Herrerra's winning list from the classic. I made it on mtgo except the Fink is a 4th BBE. I tried the Goblin Rabblemaster, and even though I was winning with the deck there were times I felt Rabblemaster was not the best.
I wish I could test both decks all day, but I have to finish my paper on treatment methods for the mentally ill and then read and write more about trauma
It’s not a snobby attitude, our deck is known to reward players who know all the different matches-up and strategies and the difference between a good and a bad Jund pilot was easy to note.
And I have more and more difficulties to identify this point when I play in tournament and see other players or watch streamers ...
I've got a question for you guys : what are your real feelings about BBE ?
Personally I find the card strong but we are no more in a proactive / reactive way to play our deck than we used to be.
I see so many streamers / players casting their BBE like : "Just turn the wheel and cross fingers to hit what we need" whereas we used to build our strategy and keep in hand needed cards for specific threats.
The fact that Jund is so popular right now piss me off too because I see soooo many bad or medium players trying to pilot our deck just because BBE was unbanned ...
I start to miss the era before unbanning when I played at a GP a T1 Raging Ravine then a T2 Dark Confidant, my opponent looked at me : "Oh ! Traditionnal Jund player still exist ?"
Hi! Great discussions going on here. I haven't posted in years, but back in 2013 I had written the Abzan/BGw primer before passing it on to Mastodon. I'm a long-time BGx player; I started with Jund just after the BBE banning, and switched to BGw when the power of Souls became evident to me. Modern Jund has always been my favourite deck in Magic, and I'm glad that I finally have an excuse to not play Lingering Souls!
I have been been consuming every bit of information I can find about the deck, and I finally feel comfortable sharing my thoughts and experiences with the deck since the unbannings. Please don't take anything I'm saying as gospel; I've done my best to describe my rationale, and I leave it to you to decide what you think
6 discard (4 IOK/2 TS): Turn 1 discard into Goyf/Bob is the reason to play BGx, and I'll almost always keep a hand with the one-two punch in the dark vs an unknown opponent, even if the rest of the hand is 5 lands. 4x IOK is a lock for me as the life loss is incredibly relevant from Thoughtseize, and I think this is a much more significant factor than missing with IOK. Playing 3x Thoughtseize main is a very small hedge against matchups like Tron and Valakut, but will cost you very dearly against the plethora of aggressive decks that are otherwise winnable matchups. Our margins against the aggro decks are very thin, and the life loss from Thoughtseize will cost you many close games, whereas I don't believe the additional Thoughtseize in the maindeck will meaningfully change the already bad big mana matchups.
6 one-mana removal (4 Bolt/2 Push): Tempo-positive plays are how Jund survives against faster decks until its sources of CA and card quality can take over the game. One-mana removal is at a premium and is much more valuable than anything that costs 2+ mana. However, due to the varied nature of threats, some number of more expensive removal spells are required to round out the suite.
Bolts become significantly better the more copies you play; it becomes a more reliable plan B (like the pun?). It is also the best removal spell to cascade into on an empty board. I am playing 4.
Fatal Push: The second best removal spell in the deck. I can't fathom playing less than 2, and I'd sooner trim on copies of the more expensive removal spells to fit them in.
Regarding 12 one-mana spells: playing so many one-mana spells ensures double-spell turns happen earlier and more consistently, as well as filling out the curve when the manabase develops awkwardly (2+ tapped lands in the first 4 turns). In other words, it improves the consistency of the deck. On the flipside, in G1 many of these spells can be a liability when you cascade into them off BBE and they have no targets. I acknowledge this argument, but I am generally just happy in G1 to be able to cast BBE; usually this is the stage of the game Jund has stabilized and begins to turn the corner. In these situations, I am not terribly concerned about what I get off the cascade, as I am likely to be in a decent position already. More importantly, the one-mana spells ensure that we survive until the stage of the game that we can worry about what BBE will cascade into. This also ceases to be an issue in postboard games.
Abrupt Decay: I don't like Abrupt Decay right now. It's most often worse than a 1-mana removal spell, equal to or worse than Terminate, and more narrow than Pulse. I view 1x Pulse in the maindeck as mandatory, but where most people play 1x Decay, I am happy to dedicate that slot to a second Pulse. While it is the clunkier spell, I am never unhappy to see it in my opening hand. I cannot say the same about Decay. Two quick sidenotes: having 2x Pulse is great in matchups like Storm, where you want a good answer for Empty without having to run awkward sideboard cards like Golgari Charm. Additionally, the 2-for-1 potential is definitely there, and playing 2x Pulse, it comes up enough that I consider it to be a real benefit.
2 Scooze: I have always felt that the correct number of Scooze is 2.5. I always played 3 in previous Jund and Abzan builds, and it's often a card that is either amazing, or it just doesn't do a lot and I'm annoyed to draw the first copy (much less the second). I have been on 2 copies since the unbanning of BBE and I seem to draw it more or less when I want it, as it is very much a late-game card. As such, I am mostly satisfied with running just 2, though I still think the correct number is 2.5 copies.
0 Liliana, the Last Hope: I think she is very good, albeit very matchup dependent. If I were to move my sideboard copy to the main, it would likely in the place of the second Pulse, but I currently value the removal spell higher. This is the card I am most interested in moving into the mainboard, but I can't seem to find a satisfactory way of doing so without disrupting the careful balance of the rest of the deck. I'd like to reiterate that she is very matchup dependent, which is my main issue with her; I would like my 60-card deck to be very consistent, with as few dead cards as possible in a given matchup. I view Terminate as a necessary evil. Not so much Liliana, the Last Hope.
24 lands (3 Raging Ravine): I like this configuration. I have been playing 24 land BGx decks for many years, and historically, I have felt that I flood more than screw. 24 feels just right for this deck. This is especially the case because of the 12 one-mana spells I'm playing. Playing 24 lands means that I keep more land-heavy hands, but truth be told, playing 25 lands has a very small effect on how often you flood or screw. The real reason I would play 25 lands is to play Treetop Village. That card is nothing short of fantastic. However, I am not prepared to cut any spells for it at this time. I also want 3 Ravines before I add any Treetops, as I find that the closing power of Ravine very important (in addition to the mana-fixing) compared to the efficiency of the latter.
Finally, I want to talk about building the deck around BBE; I think it is a trap. Bloodbraid Elf is Jund's best way to pull ahead/turn the corner, but you have to be close to parity for BBE to have a meaningful impact. I will use Jace, the Mind Sculptor as a parallel-- JtMS is an incredibly powerful card, but even so, you need to be close to parity for it to take over the game. BBE when you are behind is still good, and while having better cascade targets improves your ability to play from behind, I think it can sabotage how the deck functions as a whole. I want my Jund deck to consistently have the ability to dismantle what my opponent is doing so I can stabilize, and I value this consistency over having more raw power in my cascades. Furthermore, the deck already has so many fantastic hits that I don't feel the deck lacking any power as it is. This philosophy explains why I'm playing 2x Pulse instead of 1x Pulse and 1x LtLH.
Thank you to everyone for their fantastic and thoughtful posts in this thread. You are the reason I felt inspired to write this at all.
Cheers!
Thank you EctoMark, I was thinking I'm the only one who play a "traditionnal" Jund list with some minors changes for BEE whereas every pro players and other players follow the Reid Duke's list.
I'm a really big fan of Reid Duke, I like how he plays, how he thinks and the fact he always plays BGx.
But sometimes, he made some weird choices which work for him but not for the rest of human beings (remember when he played Bonfire of the damned in his SB 2 years ago ?)
The actual Jund list I'm currently playing is this one :
I want to continue to play Jund as the deck is : disruption, removals and threats.
T1 discard
T2 Tarmogoyf / Dark confidant
T3 Liliana / removal
I find the actual lists too much build around BBE : being agressive, cut some discard and removals in case of Cascade hits them without target
But we are playing a deck builds for attrition war, not agressive one.
If Bogles becomes popular, in addition of 2 Maelstrom Pulse and Golgari Charm, I would recommend to play Oath of Liliana, which doesn't target your opponent to make him sacrifice a creature.
In addition of what FlyingDelver said, Nihil Spellbomb is a card you can bring in match up against which you need your side board key cards, to find them thanks the cantrip.
For example against Burn, Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize are cards you remove from your deck, then you bring life gain, but you don't play 6 or 7 of those kind of cards in your SB, so bringing Nihil Spellbomb to find them is a good option too (and it grows the Goyf)
@Spsiegel1987 : I'm playing Pulse of Murasa in SB because it brings back BBE (such as KC or LtLH) and it makes you gain 6 life at instant speed against Burn when they try to finish you at instant speed during end step.
The card is pretty good against deck abusing of FoR too
I liked Rabblemaster during GP Madrid and I'll continue to play 2 copies of him in my MD.
On the other hand, I never liked Hazoret in my deck, she has no evasion and is blocked by all the things on earth.
The 2 dmg ability is less strong than Chandra Torch of Defiance +1 (which make some CA) ...
And with UW and Jeskai being more and more popular, with Path to Exile, she doesn't seem to be good in the actual meta game.
So, I'm back from Madrid and our team didn't perform well.
There was an incredible number of Affinity and unfortunatly, our Humans's player took the biggest part of them and get destroyed.
I've moved my 4th Blood Moon for a Chandra, when I bring Blood Moon post-side.
Here are my results :
Round 1 :
vs Sun & Moon
I quickly identify the deck when he plays a Calice turn 2 with just Sacred Foundry and a Mountain.
I play a big board and destroy his Ensnaring bridge to kill him in 2 turns.
For the 2°), he mulligan 5 and doesn't draw anything relevant except a Blood Moon (but I've fetched on basic turn 1 and 2)
An ultimate of Liliana closes the game
2-0
Round 2 :
vs Burn
I won the 1st thanks to an agressive hand with Turn 1 IoK on Eidolon, Turn 2 Tarmogoyf, Turn 3 Goblin Rabblemaster
The 2°) I won a lot of life thanks to Collective Brutality and Huntmaster but this last one is killed by a Searing Blaze and I don't find some other creatures.
The 3°) is closed, unfortunatly I've discarded the Skullcrack of my opponent Turn 3 before playing a Tarmogoyf then Huntmaster but my opponent draw an other Skullcrack then a Path to exile to deal with my Tarmogoyf and kill the Huntmaster the turn after. I can't come back.
1-2
Round 3 :
vs Affinity
I stabilize the board and start being aggressive at 8 life but my opponent had one Galvanic Blast and wait for the 2nd one to finish me.
The 2°) two Tarmogoyfs 5/6 end the game pretty quickly.
The 3°) I've tried to stop the aggressive start of my opponent with 2 Arcbound Ravager and 1 Etched Champion but can't balance the board and finish to die.
1-2
Round 4 :
vs Abzan Company
The first one is though, my opponent doesn't play the combo but the grindy style with 2 Kitchen Finks then Eternal Witness on Kitchen Finks, etc.
The 2°) a turn 3 Blood Moon closes the game pretty quickly while Rabblemaster floods the board.
The last one is an attrition war but my opponent finish with an empty board and an emtpy hand whereas I've got a Tarmogoyf, a Terminate in hand (in case of he found a Collective Company) and a Raging Ravine (in case of he finds a Path to Exile for my Tarmogoyf).
2-1
Round 5 :
vs Affinity
At the first one my opponent is too slow and I find enough removals to deal with his board.
The 2°) is pretty easy, I mull 6 but have a Shatterstorm and Anger of the gods in hand.
It's a butchery.
2-0
Round 6 :
vs Burn
I win the first one thanks to a slow start of my opponent and 2 IoK + an unanswered Kalitas.
The 2°) I have to mull 5 to have some effective cards against Burn, unfortunatly, I can't earn enough life to finish the game.
The last one, my opponent keeps a hand full of creatures, not the best one against Jund.
However I've finished at 2 life when he dies.
2-1
Round 7 :
vs Junk
My opponent starts the game, discards my discard, kills my Dark Confidant and then play a first Dark Confidant (that I killed) then an other one which will stay on the board.
Too much CA, I can't balance the board or his hand.
At the 2°) an early Blood Moon (turn 4) makes conceed my opponent when he doesn't have any basic whereas I play a Rabblemaster the next turn.
For the last one, we have a very long and interesting game, I play a late Blood Moon to shut down his Quagmire and slow him down.
I deal with his Lingering Souls and keep a Tarmogoyf to protect my Chandra but he finishes me with 2 Siege Rhino thanks to the reach.
1-2
Round 8 :
vs Eldra Tron
The first one is very long but a Karn finishes the game by himself.
The 2°), Blood Moon is resolved but my opponent find a Expedition Map to find a Waste.
He plays some Eldrazi but just one each turn, which is not the best plan against my hand full of removals and Liliana.
The last one, I make some agressive mulligan to find Blood Moon which is played at my turn 3 when my opponent has 4 non-basic lands.
2-1
Round 9 :
vs UR Storm
Turn 1 discard to take off Baral, Turn 2 Tarmogoyf and the next turns, Electromancer and Baral die to my removals while my Tarmogoyf beat my opponent to death.
The 2°) he plays an Empty the Warrens, unfortunatly I've got Maelstrom Pulse.
However I don't have enough pressure and die to a Grapeshot.
The last one, I manage the hand of my opponent who finally plays 4 Ritual and an Empty the Warrens "all-in" style.
At the end of his turn, I play 2 Bolt and let him at 2 life.
Draw step : I find my last Bolt and finish him !
2-1
I personnaly finish at 6-3, my Affinity team mate fnishes at 4-5 (the deck was expected so a lot of hate).
As said at the beggining, my Humans team mate suffered during all the week-end and finished at 2-7 (with 5 Affinity in his losses).
Day 2, I play a side event :
Round 1: 2-1 vs Jeskaï Tempo
Round 2 : 2-1 vs Affinity
Round 3 : 2-1 vs UW Control
Round 4 : 0-2 vs Gruul and Loss
My feedbacks of this week-end :
- Blood Moon is really strong in the actual metagame and give you the possibility to play against our bad match up (Tron or Valakut)
- Rabblemaster is an incredible clock if unanswered
- never go to a large event without silver bullet against Affinity
My next GP in Lyon will be in February, at Lyon, I will keep the same list than the one played at Madrid.
Always so happy to play Jund midrange with the possibility to deal against all decks of the format.
So tomorrow I take the plane for Grand Prix Madrid in Team Modern Unified, my Merfolck team mate will finally play Humans instead of his fishes.
Humans / Affinity / Jund (2 agressive decks and 1 midrange).
Here what I've tested a lot during last weekd and what I'll play this week-end : Jund Moon
- Jund DS / Burn / Elves
- Eldra Tron / BW Smallpow / Grixis Reanimator (classic Reanimator but with Kiki-jiki combo and Blood Moon in SB too)
We'll see wich one go the farest
Gus
I he not running Dark Confidant in Humans? That seems like an unfortunate loss for his deck (as Bob is one of the main reasons I personally like that deck). All in all though, good luck to you guys!
He replaced Dark Confidant by Tireless Tracker (which is pretty good too)
So tomorrow I take the plane for Grand Prix Madrid in Team Modern Unified, my Merfolck team mate will finally play Humans instead of his fishes.
Humans / Affinity / Jund (2 agressive decks and 1 midrange).
Here what I've tested a lot during last weekd and what I'll play this week-end : Jund Moon
I've been to GP Lyon last week-end but we rapidly go to Modern side events with my team mates to train for GP Madrid next week.
I was playing my Jund deck and finished at 3-1 / 3-1 and 2-1-1.
I've made some changes to upgrade my win rate against Burn.
The Blood Moon plan was really efficient for me last week-end, I won against Grixis Death Shadow, Junk and Humans thanks to it.
I added Huntmaster and a 3rd Collective Brutality to improve my match up against Burn which will be present in team unified.
I will play with Affinity and UG Merfolck (2 agressive decks and 1 midrange).
I was expecting some Burn, Control decks and regular tiers 1 like Valakut, Affinity, Death Shadow and Eldra Tron.
Round 1 :
vs Jeskaï Control
The 1°) and the 2°) games were very similar : I did some disruption and CA, he did some CA and dealed with my threats, I finish at 3 life he was at 2 but with all its cantrip, draws and/or scry, he always find the messing burn spell or Snapcaster to finish me.
Some close games but it's hard to deal with multiple resolved Ancestral Vision.
0-2
Round 2 :
vs B&W Eldrazi & Taxes
One of my team mate who used to play Merfolck but wanted to change his deck for a while.
The 1°) was quickly finished with 2 Reality Smasher.
The 2°) was more interesting, we traded some different resources but when we were both in top decks mode, I drew 3 lands when he found one TKS, then one Displacer.
0-2
Round 3 :
vs Storm
I knew he was playing Storm because one of my team mate won against him in he previous round.
The 1°) I did discard T1, Tarmogoyf T2, discard + Decay on Baral T3, thanks for coming.
The 2°) was exactly the same game but with 8 discard spells post side boarding, it was really hard for him.
2-0
Round 4 :
vs Esper Control
The 1°) the game was really long but little by little I've lost the game because my oppponent drew more than me thanks to Esper Charm, Think Twice or Ancestral Vision.
The 2°) I mulligan 5 with a mediocre hand but I couldn't go to mull 4, he played Gideon Jura T5 then Elspeth T6 ... ("I chose violence" - Cersei Lannister)
0-2
Round 5 :
vs Affinity
Not a really good opponent, I used to play against Affinity (one of my team mate is a really good Affinity player) and I played like control player until he had no more board and no more hand, before attacking with my creatures and killed him.
Both games were the same, never felt under pressure.
2-0
Round 6 :
vs Aura Hexproof
I knew he played Hexproof, I started the 1°) and kept a hand with IoK T1 and Liliana T3, I discarded his only creature and he would never find an other one.
The 2°) he played 2 creatures and fetched for a Dryad Arbor to deal with an eventual Liliana but my Jund Charm completly destroyed his board ... he gave up when I played Tarmogoyf T4 then Liliana T5.
2-0
I finish at 3-3, really disappointed by my results.
I think it's time to adapt to this hostile meta game and playing Blood Moon main deck seems the right choice.
Here what I will test for the following months, in prevision of Grand Prix Madrid team trio (Modern) :
I find the approch of Tyler Lutes to play Chandra and Stormbreath against UWx decks s a good one, but Chandra is really bad against some deck so it's more a side board card in my opinion (I prefer having one Kalitas in my main deck).
Thanks for your attention (and sorry for the eventual mistakes) !
Yep you are completly right, I bring Kitchen Finks instead of the 3rd mage, the card is stronger in mirror.
I correct my previous post
---------------------------------------------
In late game when you opponent draw a good spell such as LotV or a creature, he will play it so, because discard is Sorcery speed, it's not interesting.
The only interesting play in late game is playing Kolaghan's Command just after your opponent draw step to make him discard and bring back a creature from your GY.
Gus
I take out all my discards and 2 LotV, I play as a control player : kill everything until they are exausted then kill them with your manland or unanswered creature.
In :
+1 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana the Last Hope
+1 Pulse of Murasa
+1 Anger of the gods
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Damnation
+2 Collective Brutality
Out :
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Liliana of the Veil
I don't like to cut a small part of my discard (except against Burn) because discard is efficient at the begin of the game so you reduce your probability to have some in your opening hand when you diminish their numbers.
--------------------------------------------------------
About keeping discard in mirror match, I agree with LEH.
Mirror match is just how do you manage the game, what do you want to "feed" your opponent and what do you want to keep.
And it often finishes in a good old top deck war, in which discard spell are just awful.
For the mirror, here are my In / Out :
In :
+2 Fulminator Mage
+1 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana the Last Hope
+1 Pulse of Murasa
+1 Damnation
Out :
-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
-3 Thoughtseize
I bring Fulminator because they are great chump blocker to earn some time when you are behind or to cut a colour.
It permits to deal with manlands too so you can keep your removal spells for creature threats.
LtLH and Pulse of Murasa permit to bring back key creature (Scavenging Ooze, Dark Confidant or Tireless Tracker).
Damnation is a life insurance if we are far behind, to reset the game. As said before, Jund mirror is a top deck war and you can easily flood when your opponent just draw threats.
If your opponent plays a lot of creatures at the beginning of the game and you don't, to clear the board will give you an advantage because you'll have more creatures to draw than him after it.
Gus
When I look at the list of Joel Larsson or Christian Calcano, they both play 4 Fulminator Mage and 2 Surgical Extraction in their SB.
Surgical Extraction is pretty well positioned in this moment when you see combo decks such as KCI or Storm, or big mana decks such as Tron or Scapeshift, which are well positioned against Jund.
I expect the come back of Living End too, the deck is strong against Jund and Surgical is a great answer to it.
Here is the list I've tested with my team mates for the last week :
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants
2 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Collective Brutality
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
The match up against mono-G Tron is balance post-side.
Against Burn, Pulse of Murasa takes the place of an usual second Kitchen Finks cause of the instant speed.
The fact that Field of Ruins is played a lot is an other reason to play Pulse of Murasa, to bring back a land for having your missing colour is cool (or to bring back a BBE at instant speed, just like K. Command).
Gus
Calm down, kid (you'll have a heart attack).
So, if I follow your lead, just people who win GP or PT are good players ?
That's not a lot of people ...
I've made my first Day 2 at GP and my first Pro Points some years ago, the hard way (with no Bye at this moment), with Jund which is the only deck I've played for the last 4 years (exception for GP Lyon, last month, during which I've played 5c Good Stuff for a 4-2 into 8-2 into 8-7 => I'm definitively not the best player of the world)
So, I just say it's sad to see so many players piloting my beloved deck which used to be based on skill and knowledge.
That's just my opinion and you don't have to be agree with me (it's called "democracy")
Gus
It’s not a snobby attitude, our deck is known to reward players who know all the different matches-up and strategies and the difference between a good and a bad Jund pilot was easy to note.
And I have more and more difficulties to identify this point when I play in tournament and see other players or watch streamers ...
Gus
Personally I find the card strong but we are no more in a proactive / reactive way to play our deck than we used to be.
I see so many streamers / players casting their BBE like : "Just turn the wheel and cross fingers to hit what we need" whereas we used to build our strategy and keep in hand needed cards for specific threats.
The fact that Jund is so popular right now piss me off too because I see soooo many bad or medium players trying to pilot our deck just because BBE was unbanned ...
I start to miss the era before unbanning when I played at a GP a T1 Raging Ravine then a T2 Dark Confidant, my opponent looked at me : "Oh ! Traditionnal Jund player still exist ?"
What are your thoughts about this statement ?
Gus
Thank you EctoMark, I was thinking I'm the only one who play a "traditionnal" Jund list with some minors changes for BEE whereas every pro players and other players follow the Reid Duke's list.
I'm a really big fan of Reid Duke, I like how he plays, how he thinks and the fact he always plays BGx.
But sometimes, he made some weird choices which work for him but not for the rest of human beings (remember when he played Bonfire of the damned in his SB 2 years ago ?)
The actual Jund list I'm currently playing is this one :
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants
1 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Collective Brutality
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
I want to continue to play Jund as the deck is : disruption, removals and threats.
T1 discard
T2 Tarmogoyf / Dark confidant
T3 Liliana / removal
I find the actual lists too much build around BBE : being agressive, cut some discard and removals in case of Cascade hits them without target
But we are playing a deck builds for attrition war, not agressive one.
If Bogles becomes popular, in addition of 2 Maelstrom Pulse and Golgari Charm, I would recommend to play Oath of Liliana, which doesn't target your opponent to make him sacrifice a creature.
Gus
For example against Burn, Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize are cards you remove from your deck, then you bring life gain, but you don't play 6 or 7 of those kind of cards in your SB, so bringing Nihil Spellbomb to find them is a good option too (and it grows the Goyf)
Gus
The card is pretty good against deck abusing of FoR too
Gus
On the other hand, I never liked Hazoret in my deck, she has no evasion and is blocked by all the things on earth.
The 2 dmg ability is less strong than Chandra Torch of Defiance +1 (which make some CA) ...
And with UW and Jeskai being more and more popular, with Path to Exile, she doesn't seem to be good in the actual meta game.
Gus
There was an incredible number of Affinity and unfortunatly, our Humans's player took the biggest part of them and get destroyed.
Here is the list that I've finally brought :
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Instants
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Blood Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Shatterstorm
I've moved my 4th Blood Moon for a Chandra, when I bring Blood Moon post-side.
Here are my results :
Round 1 :
vs Sun & Moon
I quickly identify the deck when he plays a Calice turn 2 with just Sacred Foundry and a Mountain.
I play a big board and destroy his Ensnaring bridge to kill him in 2 turns.
For the 2°), he mulligan 5 and doesn't draw anything relevant except a Blood Moon (but I've fetched on basic turn 1 and 2)
An ultimate of Liliana closes the game
2-0
Round 2 :
vs Burn
I won the 1st thanks to an agressive hand with Turn 1 IoK on Eidolon, Turn 2 Tarmogoyf, Turn 3 Goblin Rabblemaster
The 2°) I won a lot of life thanks to Collective Brutality and Huntmaster but this last one is killed by a Searing Blaze and I don't find some other creatures.
The 3°) is closed, unfortunatly I've discarded the Skullcrack of my opponent Turn 3 before playing a Tarmogoyf then Huntmaster but my opponent draw an other Skullcrack then a Path to exile to deal with my Tarmogoyf and kill the Huntmaster the turn after. I can't come back.
1-2
Round 3 :
vs Affinity
I stabilize the board and start being aggressive at 8 life but my opponent had one Galvanic Blast and wait for the 2nd one to finish me.
The 2°) two Tarmogoyfs 5/6 end the game pretty quickly.
The 3°) I've tried to stop the aggressive start of my opponent with 2 Arcbound Ravager and 1 Etched Champion but can't balance the board and finish to die.
1-2
Round 4 :
vs Abzan Company
The first one is though, my opponent doesn't play the combo but the grindy style with 2 Kitchen Finks then Eternal Witness on Kitchen Finks, etc.
The 2°) a turn 3 Blood Moon closes the game pretty quickly while Rabblemaster floods the board.
The last one is an attrition war but my opponent finish with an empty board and an emtpy hand whereas I've got a Tarmogoyf, a Terminate in hand (in case of he found a Collective Company) and a Raging Ravine (in case of he finds a Path to Exile for my Tarmogoyf).
2-1
Round 5 :
vs Affinity
At the first one my opponent is too slow and I find enough removals to deal with his board.
The 2°) is pretty easy, I mull 6 but have a Shatterstorm and Anger of the gods in hand.
It's a butchery.
2-0
Round 6 :
vs Burn
I win the first one thanks to a slow start of my opponent and 2 IoK + an unanswered Kalitas.
The 2°) I have to mull 5 to have some effective cards against Burn, unfortunatly, I can't earn enough life to finish the game.
The last one, my opponent keeps a hand full of creatures, not the best one against Jund.
However I've finished at 2 life when he dies.
2-1
Round 7 :
vs Junk
My opponent starts the game, discards my discard, kills my Dark Confidant and then play a first Dark Confidant (that I killed) then an other one which will stay on the board.
Too much CA, I can't balance the board or his hand.
At the 2°) an early Blood Moon (turn 4) makes conceed my opponent when he doesn't have any basic whereas I play a Rabblemaster the next turn.
For the last one, we have a very long and interesting game, I play a late Blood Moon to shut down his Quagmire and slow him down.
I deal with his Lingering Souls and keep a Tarmogoyf to protect my Chandra but he finishes me with 2 Siege Rhino thanks to the reach.
1-2
Round 8 :
vs Eldra Tron
The first one is very long but a Karn finishes the game by himself.
The 2°), Blood Moon is resolved but my opponent find a Expedition Map to find a Waste.
He plays some Eldrazi but just one each turn, which is not the best plan against my hand full of removals and Liliana.
The last one, I make some agressive mulligan to find Blood Moon which is played at my turn 3 when my opponent has 4 non-basic lands.
2-1
Round 9 :
vs UR Storm
Turn 1 discard to take off Baral, Turn 2 Tarmogoyf and the next turns, Electromancer and Baral die to my removals while my Tarmogoyf beat my opponent to death.
The 2°) he plays an Empty the Warrens, unfortunatly I've got Maelstrom Pulse.
However I don't have enough pressure and die to a Grapeshot.
The last one, I manage the hand of my opponent who finally plays 4 Ritual and an Empty the Warrens "all-in" style.
At the end of his turn, I play 2 Bolt and let him at 2 life.
Draw step : I find my last Bolt and finish him !
2-1
I personnaly finish at 6-3, my Affinity team mate fnishes at 4-5 (the deck was expected so a lot of hate).
As said at the beggining, my Humans team mate suffered during all the week-end and finished at 2-7 (with 5 Affinity in his losses).
Day 2, I play a side event :
Round 1:
2-1 vs Jeskaï Tempo
Round 2 :
2-1 vs Affinity
Round 3 :
2-1 vs UW Control
Round 4 :
0-2 vs Gruul and Loss
My feedbacks of this week-end :
- Blood Moon is really strong in the actual metagame and give you the possibility to play against our bad match up (Tron or Valakut)
- Rabblemaster is an incredible clock if unanswered
- never go to a large event without silver bullet against Affinity
My next GP in Lyon will be in February, at Lyon, I will keep the same list than the one played at Madrid.
Always so happy to play Jund midrange with the possibility to deal against all decks of the format.
Gus
He replaced Dark Confidant by Tireless Tracker (which is pretty good too)
Gus
Humans / Affinity / Jund (2 agressive decks and 1 midrange).
Here what I've tested a lot during last weekd and what I'll play this week-end : Jund Moon
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Instants
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Blood Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Shatterstorm
Our other teams are :
- Jund DS / Burn / Elves
- Eldra Tron / BW Smallpow / Grixis Reanimator (classic Reanimator but with Kiki-jiki combo and Blood Moon in SB too)
We'll see wich one go the farest
Gus
I was playing my Jund deck and finished at 3-1 / 3-1 and 2-1-1.
I've made some changes to upgrade my win rate against Burn.
Here what I will play next week-end :
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Instants
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Blood Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Shatterstorm
The Blood Moon plan was really efficient for me last week-end, I won against Grixis Death Shadow, Junk and Humans thanks to it.
I added Huntmaster and a 3rd Collective Brutality to improve my match up against Burn which will be present in team unified.
I will play with Affinity and UG Merfolck (2 agressive decks and 1 midrange).
We'll see how we perform
Gus
Here was my list :
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Instants
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Jund Charm
2 Collective Brutality
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
1 Shatterstorm
I was expecting some Burn, Control decks and regular tiers 1 like Valakut, Affinity, Death Shadow and Eldra Tron.
Round 1 :
vs Jeskaï Control
The 1°) and the 2°) games were very similar : I did some disruption and CA, he did some CA and dealed with my threats, I finish at 3 life he was at 2 but with all its cantrip, draws and/or scry, he always find the messing burn spell or Snapcaster to finish me.
Some close games but it's hard to deal with multiple resolved Ancestral Vision.
0-2
Round 2 :
vs B&W Eldrazi & Taxes
One of my team mate who used to play Merfolck but wanted to change his deck for a while.
The 1°) was quickly finished with 2 Reality Smasher.
The 2°) was more interesting, we traded some different resources but when we were both in top decks mode, I drew 3 lands when he found one TKS, then one Displacer.
0-2
Round 3 :
vs Storm
I knew he was playing Storm because one of my team mate won against him in he previous round.
The 1°) I did discard T1, Tarmogoyf T2, discard + Decay on Baral T3, thanks for coming.
The 2°) was exactly the same game but with 8 discard spells post side boarding, it was really hard for him.
2-0
Round 4 :
vs Esper Control
The 1°) the game was really long but little by little I've lost the game because my oppponent drew more than me thanks to Esper Charm, Think Twice or Ancestral Vision.
The 2°) I mulligan 5 with a mediocre hand but I couldn't go to mull 4, he played Gideon Jura T5 then Elspeth T6 ... ("I chose violence" - Cersei Lannister)
0-2
Round 5 :
vs Affinity
Not a really good opponent, I used to play against Affinity (one of my team mate is a really good Affinity player) and I played like control player until he had no more board and no more hand, before attacking with my creatures and killed him.
Both games were the same, never felt under pressure.
2-0
Round 6 :
vs Aura Hexproof
I knew he played Hexproof, I started the 1°) and kept a hand with IoK T1 and Liliana T3, I discarded his only creature and he would never find an other one.
The 2°) he played 2 creatures and fetched for a Dryad Arbor to deal with an eventual Liliana but my Jund Charm completly destroyed his board ... he gave up when I played Tarmogoyf T4 then Liliana T5.
2-0
I finish at 3-3, really disappointed by my results.
I think it's time to adapt to this hostile meta game and playing Blood Moon main deck seems the right choice.
Here what I will test for the following months, in prevision of Grand Prix Madrid team trio (Modern) :
2 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments
3 Blood Moon
Instants
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Jund Charm
3 Collective Brutality
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
1 Shatterstorm
I find the approch of Tyler Lutes to play Chandra and Stormbreath against UWx decks s a good one, but Chandra is really bad against some deck so it's more a side board card in my opinion (I prefer having one Kalitas in my main deck).
Thanks for your attention (and sorry for the eventual mistakes) !
Gus