It is an outstanding performance, and a great job! However, this is not FlyingDelver - it is a tournament report from Peter Bui. It says so in the byline - which granted is a bit hard to spot unless you're looking for it.
Having quickly gone through the list here's what I'd go for at a first glance.
I've done a few things here:
1. I value Bloodbraid elf quite a bit for your expected meta, you have quite a few matchups where you need to turn the corner quick - a 3/2 haste that might bring a bolt or hate piece along with it is IMO one of the best ways of doing that. So I'd play all 4 copies. For the same reason I'd go to 25 lands - to prepare a bit extra for the control matchups this is the treetop village - which also helps in turning the corner quick.
2. I swapped a wooded foothills for a twilight mire to make scooze as good as he can be. I can see an argument to swap one of the forests to basic mountain, but it'll mostly come up against control or burn. Against control make sure to fetch up your red sources when you can and you should be fine. Hopefully you can draw some cliffs against burn, otherwise you need to put a priority on getting red in a painless way.
3. Confidant is great in the matches where you need to find your disruption fast (tron, scapeshift, goryos) - and one of the best cards against uw - so I upped the count to 4 and dropped the kalitas as I don't think you need him that bad against the expected meta. I dropped the 4th assassin's trophy to make room for the creature changes as well as the land changes - it is a good card, but not one I'd usually want to start with multiples of in my opening hand - akin to scooze, so 3 seems a better number IMO. I also went down to 2 fatal pushes in the main - which is the change I'm the least confidant about - I readded it to the sideboard as there's a few matches where it'll be great.
I like the surgicals against arclight, ad naus and goryos. I dropped nihil spellbomb as I don't think it does enough for the matches you listed, except goryos - I hope you can make due with scooze, fulminator and brutality here. I upped to all 4 fulminators, they seem great against titan, scapeshift, jeskai/uw, tron, ad naus - and can come in as fillers against burn for the thoughtseizes and confidants that you need to remove. I dropped to 1 anger as I'm hoping you won't need it for the creature aggro matchups and I only find it mediocre against phoenix where you also have 2 surgicals, 2 damping sphere as well as ishkanah and 1 fatal push in the board. I dropped the alpine moons as the fulminators + damping spheres should be enough disruption against lands I think.
I might have made a few more changes there, but not quite sure. Anyways - this is the list I ended up at looking at the expected meta and trying to hedge against that.
EDIT: I forgot to add - I'm not confident on the affinity/scales matchups with this list. So might need some shaving of some of the hate pieces to make room for some impactful stuff for that matchup. Not that you cannot beat it with this list, but I'd probably test this list against those decks and see if you need to do something about it or not. Also some guesses around whether you expect those decks to hit the top tables might be worth it.
I also keep in a healthy amount of discard against GDS - sometimes cut 1 or 2 IOK. I like Scooze in the matchup as it can take over on its own in the late game, but can see going down to 2.
My list is obviously different from yours, but I like to play 2 push, 1 bolt postboard (I don't have decay maindeck no more, just 3 trophies, no pulses) - and then add any card that can kill Angler (I board in 1 Damnation, not happy about it but it feels needed), as many spellbombs and Llth that I have. This leaves me with around this configuration of kill spells post board:
2 Push
1 Bolt
3 Trophy
1 Damnation
2 Kolaghan's Command (more of a kill spell in the sense that it can deal two to face, but usually is discard + bring back threat).
Liliana of the Veil is the most important card either player potentially has access to - so you need to value it very highly. She can win games on her own if she sticks.
I think the biggest thing I am missing right now, the missing link I suppose, is how to mulligan correctly. How many lands is normal to keep? Am I supposed to keep 4-5 lands and try to win off a single Bob/Goyf in my starting hand?
The "problem" with this deck is that the answers here aren't so clear cut. The hardest part is most definitely what to keep against an unknown opponent - for the most part I like to keep hands that I can envision winning a game of magic with against *some* part of the field. That is don't keep a hand thinking "If I'm against Cheerios I'll win, otherwise I'll likely loose". Besides the fact that almost any hand you have wins against the deck, it is barely played. But if you keep a hand thinking "This will win against aggro, but likely loose in the mirror or against control" - I think that is a fine keep in the dark. In the dark I want a hand of at least 2 lands that can play a 2 mana spell on turn 2. I'd much rather keep 3 lands into LotV - but you can't always have you what wish for.
TL;DR - you need to build up an idea of what constitutes a hand that have the possibility of winning games, and which opponents it wins against. In GP Atlanta this year, in Round 2 I believe, Reid Duke plays Abzan vs Abzan (unknown opponent) - keeps a hand full of creature lands (5 lands), IoK into Muderous Cut on the play. This can easily look like a horrible hand, but he keeps - and takes down the game no question. I can't imagine he was happy about that keep - but rather I envision that he keeps the hand thinking - I got discard and a removal spell and a bunch of "creatures". I win the grindy games and likely loose against combo and aggro.
For me I think our biggest weakness right now is actually that our creature aggro matchups aren't as great as they used to be. Mainly this is because there's less "combo" creature decks (elves, etc.) instead we now play against decks where we can't just brickwall the ground with big creatures. Humans reflector mages our stuff away and flies over us - spirits just fly.
I would love some sort of playable flier(s) - preferably something with an ETB effect and large toughness to brickwall the air as well - at 2-3 mana. Lingering Souls for abzan sort of does this - it does not brickwall the air, but provides chump blockers for several turns. I feel like we simply need something that will allow us to turn our Goyfs sideways to force our opponents to chump blocking our guys - instead of the reverse.
I don't really think there's something viable in our colours sadly. For me I'm mainly hoping that dredge will force the remaining decks in the format to fill up their boards with cards to handle dredge - while we don't really need to go that far (we already play GY hate, and can simply move some sweepers to Anger of the Gods to have an OK matchup). This might be wishful thinking however.
I agree EPICAS22 - the frenzy list looks promising - and I think the stuff Azazadan has put forward looks very interesting. It is also clear to me that it looks like a very different deck however - as the entire deck needs to be built in a different way, that however does not make it look any less interesting. I'm looking forward to see the developments to the frenzy list.
Sadly I won't myself have too much time to test Jund in the next couple of months - I'm preparing for a Unified tournament where, as it stands right now, playing Jund is not going to be an option with the team I am playing. But Jund is still a deck I enjoy playing, and plan to return to.
There was a time when this thread was more about finding a proper build of Jund and less about being right. Could we not get this thread back on track for this?
You are all taking things so personally here - let's get this back on track and figure out where the deck should be headed instead. If someone disagrees with you it doesn't mean they hate you - it just means they see it from a different point of view or has different experiences. This is good - not bad!
The last many pages have sadly been primarily arguing over "who is right" instead of finding the right build I find - and this in a time where so much interesting might be happening for our deck with new toys to play with. Let's get into a mindset where, when we disagree with each other we try to present our own point of view to better give the other person a chance to show us why we're wrong - instead of being adamant that they are the ones that are wrong. Being sure that you're right leaves you no room to grow as a person or a player.
Not that I disagree with you - but you do get to, potentially, cast multiple cards from the top of your library every turn. It can be CA - but it obviously depends on the top of your deck.
I didn't have much luck with the build - I think mostly it is due to not being used to this style of build - not knowing which hands are keepable etc. I'm not sure I will pursue this build much more right now (looking towards other decks) - but I would take my results with a grain of salt. I think it is very much possible that there's a good deck in the Jaberwocki build when the pilot knows the deck and possibly with a bit of fine tuning.
My matchups (we were only 8 people) were:
Living End (really missed the Leyline's in that I didn't manage to get here, but would figure the matchup is still not favorable post board with them)
Grixis Control (I boarded out a lot of my removal and ended up having issues casting Reveler in the postboarded games - got blown out by maindeck anger in G1)
Blue Tron (I think this matchup is probably alright with this build - somehow I just couldn't manage to draw the right cards and was 1 turn too slow both games)
I've managed to borrow some cards for tonight to try the list out in my local meta. Might have to swap the Leylines for Spellbombs tonight - the guy I can borrow those from might not make it. There's usually not that many GY decks in my local meta anyway - would love to try the Leylines though.
Looking at the list I really like it as well, it seems a bit threat light to me though, but I suppose the lootings help find the threats. Has finding threats been any issue or does the looting make it work exactly as it should?
I'll use the same list as a starting point (I'm not a fan of Blooming Marsh in Jund, and think the 1 Terminate makes total sense).
I'm also really looking forward to try this build FlyingDelver. Just got to borrow a few cards from some friends before I can make it happen. But the build certainly looks interesting.
Are you still just running jaberwocki's list with -1 Blooming Marsh, +1 Terminate? I can't quite figure out if the sideboard looks the way it does due to still being a work in progress, or if it is really the way to go (so many playsets, also 3 grudges with 3 k commands main seem like a lot to me).
I'm really hooked on the idea of playing 4x leyline of the void in the sideboard though - which seem like a very strong card atm (vs. hollow one, mardu and kci) - but just not doable in regular Jund IMO - looting should help quite a lot here.
I've been very happy with this list. It's not that it solves all the issues of card selection that we've been talking about, that still very much is a problem, however the deck is very proactive - and much less a controlling deck than it used to be (for me at least). It creates quite huge tempo swings and work well against both control, combo and aggro decks a like.
I wouldn't go as far to say that I'm favored against most decks, but I feel like every matchup is more than winnable. Especially Tron and Titanshift which used to be huge problems for me, now seem much closer. I feel like there's few really bad matchups for this list, even something like Abzan midrange can get hugely out tempoed by this list.
Another thing is that every threat is close to must answer for every deck (or in the case of BBE, I went up in tempo already just by casting it). I've been very happy with the Grim Flayers (much to my surprise). There's just so many decks right now where it either has free attacks (affinity, mardu pyromancer, etc.) and thus gets triggers all day, or where it will help you block ground creatures. Notice that I'm not really putting an effort into getting delirium. While I won't say that I always reliably get delirium, the good parts is that it hasn't really felt needed. Even when you need to race - delirium is nice, but most of the time just getting the triggers is all the value you really need.
I tried a Tireless Tracker build a few days ago (swapping Bobs for them), and it did not feel good. I agree with Delver here in that BBE is the card its competing against, and while one or two copies might be the place to be - I'm much more happy to run this list that is much more tempo based right now - Tracker does not feel like it belongs in this kind of list.
The sideboard, I feel, is pretty stock. I cut the Lavamancer from it, just because I don't want to put too much pressure on my own graveyard. I usually have some bomb cards for the matchups where they are needed, and usually side in/out 5-8 cards per matchup, which I think is a pretty decent place to be.
I'm not saying this is the holy grail of Jund lists right now (I'm not even close to being a good enough player to make that claim), but I think a list like this deserves a shot.
I've been running back and forth lately with the list I've been playing (planning to take Jund to GP Barcelona). I recently tried moving away from lots of removal and interaction in exchange for more board presence with more creatures. I've loved the Grim Flayers so far!
I've been running fairly well with this list, most games feel fairly close - but having a very proactive game plan seems to be doing well. Some noteworthy considerations:
1. I've changed an EE in the board for a second damnation. I found myself often times siding the EE in to deal with creatures (tokens and humans/affinity), while the EE is great against tokens my experience with it against affinity and humans was that I'd often want X=2 - which I find very awkward in a list that has so many two drops as this.
2. I'm not running the Cage atm - I'd love to find room for it, but I'm not sure it is really pulling its weight atm. It helps against Hollow One, but this is the primary match where I'd want it - and so far my experience has been that an Ooze can often get me out of the primary troubles here. I find Cage more of a trap card against storm where they just bounce it EOT and kill you when you think you're safe.
While I'm always open for suggestions the two things I'm mainly considering myself is:
1. The split between push and bolt - I'm not entirely sure if going with a 3/3 split would allow me, sometimes, to let a Champion/Lieutenant from humans grow a bit bigger before dealing with it, also it would help greatly against the manlands from Affinity. What experiences do you all have on this front?
2. Having only played the Grim Flayers recently I'm not really sure if the split between Flayer and Bob is correct, or if 3/3 here would do a better job as well. Obviously Bob turn two is awesome and it's a play I'd happily make any day - Flayers work better in multiples though and do a better job of gumming up the ground. Have anyone here done some testing with various splits between the two cards?
Thanks for the clarifications - that does seem to make the card quite a bit better. It should also be possible to name the back half of Azcanta with this right?
Alpine Moon does not shut down Tron completely if I'm reading the card correctly? Even if I name "Urza's Tower" - if my opponent has Mine and Power plant in play, those still tap for 2 mana right?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I've done a few things here:
1. I value Bloodbraid elf quite a bit for your expected meta, you have quite a few matchups where you need to turn the corner quick - a 3/2 haste that might bring a bolt or hate piece along with it is IMO one of the best ways of doing that. So I'd play all 4 copies. For the same reason I'd go to 25 lands - to prepare a bit extra for the control matchups this is the treetop village - which also helps in turning the corner quick.
2. I swapped a wooded foothills for a twilight mire to make scooze as good as he can be. I can see an argument to swap one of the forests to basic mountain, but it'll mostly come up against control or burn. Against control make sure to fetch up your red sources when you can and you should be fine. Hopefully you can draw some cliffs against burn, otherwise you need to put a priority on getting red in a painless way.
3. Confidant is great in the matches where you need to find your disruption fast (tron, scapeshift, goryos) - and one of the best cards against uw - so I upped the count to 4 and dropped the kalitas as I don't think you need him that bad against the expected meta. I dropped the 4th assassin's trophy to make room for the creature changes as well as the land changes - it is a good card, but not one I'd usually want to start with multiples of in my opening hand - akin to scooze, so 3 seems a better number IMO. I also went down to 2 fatal pushes in the main - which is the change I'm the least confidant about - I readded it to the sideboard as there's a few matches where it'll be great.
I like the surgicals against arclight, ad naus and goryos. I dropped nihil spellbomb as I don't think it does enough for the matches you listed, except goryos - I hope you can make due with scooze, fulminator and brutality here. I upped to all 4 fulminators, they seem great against titan, scapeshift, jeskai/uw, tron, ad naus - and can come in as fillers against burn for the thoughtseizes and confidants that you need to remove. I dropped to 1 anger as I'm hoping you won't need it for the creature aggro matchups and I only find it mediocre against phoenix where you also have 2 surgicals, 2 damping sphere as well as ishkanah and 1 fatal push in the board. I dropped the alpine moons as the fulminators + damping spheres should be enough disruption against lands I think.
I might have made a few more changes there, but not quite sure. Anyways - this is the list I ended up at looking at the expected meta and trying to hedge against that.
EDIT: I forgot to add - I'm not confident on the affinity/scales matchups with this list. So might need some shaving of some of the hate pieces to make room for some impactful stuff for that matchup. Not that you cannot beat it with this list, but I'd probably test this list against those decks and see if you need to do something about it or not. Also some guesses around whether you expect those decks to hit the top tables might be worth it.
4 blackcleave cliffs
2 overgrown tomb
1 blood crypt
1 stomping ground
3 raging ravine
1 treetop village
4 verdant catacombs
3 bloodstained mire
1 wooded foothills
1 twilight mire
2 swamp
2 forest
4 bloodbraid elf
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
3 scavenging ooze
spells
4 liliana of the veil
2 fatal push
2 kolaghan's command
3 assassin’s trophy
3 lightning bolt
2 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 surgical extraction
4 fulminator mage
2 Collective brutality
1 Anger of the gods
1 engineered explosives
2 damping sphere
1 liliana, the last hope
1 Ishkanah, grafwidow
1 fatal push
My list is obviously different from yours, but I like to play 2 push, 1 bolt postboard (I don't have decay maindeck no more, just 3 trophies, no pulses) - and then add any card that can kill Angler (I board in 1 Damnation, not happy about it but it feels needed), as many spellbombs and Llth that I have. This leaves me with around this configuration of kill spells post board:
2 Push
1 Bolt
3 Trophy
1 Damnation
2 Kolaghan's Command (more of a kill spell in the sense that it can deal two to face, but usually is discard + bring back threat).
Liliana of the Veil is the most important card either player potentially has access to - so you need to value it very highly. She can win games on her own if she sticks.
The "problem" with this deck is that the answers here aren't so clear cut. The hardest part is most definitely what to keep against an unknown opponent - for the most part I like to keep hands that I can envision winning a game of magic with against *some* part of the field. That is don't keep a hand thinking "If I'm against Cheerios I'll win, otherwise I'll likely loose". Besides the fact that almost any hand you have wins against the deck, it is barely played. But if you keep a hand thinking "This will win against aggro, but likely loose in the mirror or against control" - I think that is a fine keep in the dark. In the dark I want a hand of at least 2 lands that can play a 2 mana spell on turn 2. I'd much rather keep 3 lands into LotV - but you can't always have you what wish for.
TL;DR - you need to build up an idea of what constitutes a hand that have the possibility of winning games, and which opponents it wins against. In GP Atlanta this year, in Round 2 I believe, Reid Duke plays Abzan vs Abzan (unknown opponent) - keeps a hand full of creature lands (5 lands), IoK into Muderous Cut on the play. This can easily look like a horrible hand, but he keeps - and takes down the game no question. I can't imagine he was happy about that keep - but rather I envision that he keeps the hand thinking - I got discard and a removal spell and a bunch of "creatures". I win the grindy games and likely loose against combo and aggro.
I would love some sort of playable flier(s) - preferably something with an ETB effect and large toughness to brickwall the air as well - at 2-3 mana. Lingering Souls for abzan sort of does this - it does not brickwall the air, but provides chump blockers for several turns. I feel like we simply need something that will allow us to turn our Goyfs sideways to force our opponents to chump blocking our guys - instead of the reverse.
I don't really think there's something viable in our colours sadly. For me I'm mainly hoping that dredge will force the remaining decks in the format to fill up their boards with cards to handle dredge - while we don't really need to go that far (we already play GY hate, and can simply move some sweepers to Anger of the Gods to have an OK matchup). This might be wishful thinking however.
Sadly I won't myself have too much time to test Jund in the next couple of months - I'm preparing for a Unified tournament where, as it stands right now, playing Jund is not going to be an option with the team I am playing. But Jund is still a deck I enjoy playing, and plan to return to.
You are all taking things so personally here - let's get this back on track and figure out where the deck should be headed instead. If someone disagrees with you it doesn't mean they hate you - it just means they see it from a different point of view or has different experiences. This is good - not bad!
The last many pages have sadly been primarily arguing over "who is right" instead of finding the right build I find - and this in a time where so much interesting might be happening for our deck with new toys to play with. Let's get into a mindset where, when we disagree with each other we try to present our own point of view to better give the other person a chance to show us why we're wrong - instead of being adamant that they are the ones that are wrong. Being sure that you're right leaves you no room to grow as a person or a player.
My matchups (we were only 8 people) were:
Living End (really missed the Leyline's in that I didn't manage to get here, but would figure the matchup is still not favorable post board with them)
Grixis Control (I boarded out a lot of my removal and ended up having issues casting Reveler in the postboarded games - got blown out by maindeck anger in G1)
Blue Tron (I think this matchup is probably alright with this build - somehow I just couldn't manage to draw the right cards and was 1 turn too slow both games)
Looking at the list I really like it as well, it seems a bit threat light to me though, but I suppose the lootings help find the threats. Has finding threats been any issue or does the looting make it work exactly as it should?
I'll use the same list as a starting point (I'm not a fan of Blooming Marsh in Jund, and think the 1 Terminate makes total sense).
Are you still just running jaberwocki's list with -1 Blooming Marsh, +1 Terminate? I can't quite figure out if the sideboard looks the way it does due to still being a work in progress, or if it is really the way to go (so many playsets, also 3 grudges with 3 k commands main seem like a lot to me).
I'm really hooked on the idea of playing 4x leyline of the void in the sideboard though - which seem like a very strong card atm (vs. hollow one, mardu and kci) - but just not doable in regular Jund IMO - looting should help quite a lot here.
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Grim Flayer
3 Scavenging Ooze
Spells
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands
2 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Twilight Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Fatal Push
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Damnation
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Anger of the Gods
I've been very happy with this list. It's not that it solves all the issues of card selection that we've been talking about, that still very much is a problem, however the deck is very proactive - and much less a controlling deck than it used to be (for me at least). It creates quite huge tempo swings and work well against both control, combo and aggro decks a like.
I wouldn't go as far to say that I'm favored against most decks, but I feel like every matchup is more than winnable. Especially Tron and Titanshift which used to be huge problems for me, now seem much closer. I feel like there's few really bad matchups for this list, even something like Abzan midrange can get hugely out tempoed by this list.
Another thing is that every threat is close to must answer for every deck (or in the case of BBE, I went up in tempo already just by casting it). I've been very happy with the Grim Flayers (much to my surprise). There's just so many decks right now where it either has free attacks (affinity, mardu pyromancer, etc.) and thus gets triggers all day, or where it will help you block ground creatures. Notice that I'm not really putting an effort into getting delirium. While I won't say that I always reliably get delirium, the good parts is that it hasn't really felt needed. Even when you need to race - delirium is nice, but most of the time just getting the triggers is all the value you really need.
I tried a Tireless Tracker build a few days ago (swapping Bobs for them), and it did not feel good. I agree with Delver here in that BBE is the card its competing against, and while one or two copies might be the place to be - I'm much more happy to run this list that is much more tempo based right now - Tracker does not feel like it belongs in this kind of list.
The sideboard, I feel, is pretty stock. I cut the Lavamancer from it, just because I don't want to put too much pressure on my own graveyard. I usually have some bomb cards for the matchups where they are needed, and usually side in/out 5-8 cards per matchup, which I think is a pretty decent place to be.
I'm not saying this is the holy grail of Jund lists right now (I'm not even close to being a good enough player to make that claim), but I think a list like this deserves a shot.
I'm currently on a list that looks like this:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Grim Flayer
3 Scavenging Ooze
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (16)
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Twilight Mire
1 Mountain
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Fatal Push
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Damnation
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Kitchen Finks
I've been running fairly well with this list, most games feel fairly close - but having a very proactive game plan seems to be doing well. Some noteworthy considerations:
1. I've changed an EE in the board for a second damnation. I found myself often times siding the EE in to deal with creatures (tokens and humans/affinity), while the EE is great against tokens my experience with it against affinity and humans was that I'd often want X=2 - which I find very awkward in a list that has so many two drops as this.
2. I'm not running the Cage atm - I'd love to find room for it, but I'm not sure it is really pulling its weight atm. It helps against Hollow One, but this is the primary match where I'd want it - and so far my experience has been that an Ooze can often get me out of the primary troubles here. I find Cage more of a trap card against storm where they just bounce it EOT and kill you when you think you're safe.
While I'm always open for suggestions the two things I'm mainly considering myself is:
1. The split between push and bolt - I'm not entirely sure if going with a 3/3 split would allow me, sometimes, to let a Champion/Lieutenant from humans grow a bit bigger before dealing with it, also it would help greatly against the manlands from Affinity. What experiences do you all have on this front?
2. Having only played the Grim Flayers recently I'm not really sure if the split between Flayer and Bob is correct, or if 3/3 here would do a better job as well. Obviously Bob turn two is awesome and it's a play I'd happily make any day - Flayers work better in multiples though and do a better job of gumming up the ground. Have anyone here done some testing with various splits between the two cards?