All of this makes a lot of the SCG Classic winner's deck choices really odd to me, but it's also very telling.
What do you think it tells us?
Seems like he tried some relatively unconventional things and they either worked out in his favor or he dodged the bad matchups (or combination of both).
The very bad thing about Jund is Lightning Bolt being a very weak card since rising of Death's Shadow decks. Amd even worse is that Jund really needs Bolt to be good because it is also quite good game ending spell. Without having a Bolt in Jund I would just play straight BG because what is the point of red without a playset of Bolts?
"There's more that red offers than just bolts" would be my answer. Having played a lot of rock over the last few weeks, it is a solid deck but has trouble in dealing with higher cmc threats without resorting to conditional removal spells like Go for the Throat or less efficient spells like Maelstrom Pulse. You also get access to solid 4 drops like Olivia Voldaren and Huntmaster of the Fells and sideboard staples such as Ancient Grudge.
Lightning Bolt has become somewhat weaker but it can deal with a lot of the lesser toughness 3+ drop creatures that people have started moving to in an attempt to avoid Fatal Push like Tireless Tracker, Goblin Rabblemaster, all of the cmc reducing creatures from Storm, etc. It can also provide the reach to end a game as well as kill planeswalkers. Should you be running a full four? Maybe, maybe not. Meta call, yadda^3.
He even brought TWO Feed the Clan in the sideboard. That's just plain weird when we have Collective Brutality for Burn.
I assumed he would bring the Feed the Clan in against scapeshift in addition to burn and the typical aggro decks. I've never found it to be worth the slot(s), for what its worth.
Do you actually keep discard spells in the main deck after game 1 against Affinity?
Glad I'm not the only one thinking having them in G2 is odd. I always board out discard for that matchup since many times its essentially dead on turn one. Whats the rationale for keeping them in?
I would 100% try to find room for a Ghost Quarter or Tec Edge if you're running maindeck Excavator. Based on your list, I would drop 2 Blooming Marshes for a Ghost Quarter and a Twilight Mire.
Yea, I think if I'm running excavator I would want to abuse things other than fetchlands and the occasional ravine.
I've been super interested in trying out Hatto's GB Rock deck--could you explain how the deck is beating E-Tron, it looks scary having to only rely on LOTV, 1 Go for the throat, and 2x Pulses for their threats.
There's also typically 3x Hissing Quagmire in BG builds now too. Most people forget it has DT, similar to forgetting reach on Stirring Wildwood.
The synergy might be nice but overall and most of the time, this card will just be a worse terminate for 3 mana. If I would want more hard removal I would probably play a fourth terminate over BGH.
Good point. Perhaps it would be better suited in a BG Rock deck as a sub for terminate.
Also able to kill Reality Smasher without needing to discard or pitch it to Smasher's discard clause and take out a TKS, etc. Is it a straight up replacement for Terminate? On paper, no - but given the overall meta, its not a terrible card to think about.
I find myself increasingly at a loss as to why I should still have Fulminators in my 75. Tron is gone and any Scapeshift player worth his salt plays around them anyway.
ETron doesn't give a ***** about them, they're slow against Affinity (which I'm not worried about to begin with), they're dead against Dredge and occasionally alright against Burn. That doesn't warrant three slots, in my opinion. Am I supposed to just bring them in for rogue Townships?
Why do you guys still play them?
I don't.
I stopped using them a long time ago when I realized that most times that I brought them in it was just because I had too much to board out and needed to have 15 cards in my sideboard.
G1: VIZIR 2-0
G2: INFECT 2-0
G3: BANT ELDRAZI 2-1
G4: LIVING END 2-1
It is a strange list, with strange choices.
About 22 lands: I don't need so much lands with this list. I need only some cards in the graveyard in order to play Tasigur as soon as possible.
About 5 Lilianas: I want to see this one every game. And then, now I can see every match.
So, I think that I'll receive a lot of bad comments about my list hahaha, but you should try it =)
Obvious trepidation of flipping Tasigur to Bob aside, I like the main deck if for no other reason than I have a desire in my builds to never go below 3 bolts. Do you find that the more versatile but not as good Rakdos Charm and Jund Charm are better than options like Grafdigger's CageAncient GrudgeNihil Spellbomb, etc? I realize that since you're running 3 of each Fulminator Mage and Kitchen Finks that your space is tight so was the thinking "well i only have 2 slots so I'll go w charms here"?
So I'm taking Jund to a PPTQ this weekend. I'm fairly settled on the main board, only question being if I want a second Decay or Kolaghan's Command (currently have the second Decay). The sideboard is giving me issues though, I can't seem to find something I'm 100% comfortable with. Anyone up for taking a look and leaving some feedback, I'd appreciate some conversations about it!
I've been liking Flaying Tendrils over Anger of the Gods lately. Same exile clause for slightly less painful mana requirements while actually killing Etched Champion through metalcraft. I would probably max Fulminator Mage at 2 copies and move that slot to a second Maelstrom Pulse due to it being all-around good. Similarly I'd probably drop to a single Grafdigger's Cage and use that to roll w some GY hate for decks that don't care about the cage - Nihil Spellbomb being my go-to there. I am not a huge Shatterstorm fan but some people swear by it. I like 2 Ancient Grudge more.
However, Flayer is gross, dude, forget giving me 2 cards, he's giving me exactly what I want, the deck can still curve normally and then those traverse cards just sorta alleviates land flooding.
This is why I've been trying to find optimal lists for him since he came out, even if he can be maddening at times. Once he hits once you basically get on a gravy train of only drawing what you want / need.
I've barely needed or wanted to cast Dark Confidant, it's been Grim carrying every win, digging for answers or Goyf, which surprises me.
Having played Abzan traverse (0 bob) and "classic flayer jund" (4 bob 4 flayer 4 goyf), the only thing I missed in abzan was the awesome interaction they have together. If drawing 1 card I cherry pick from my top three is great then two cards is even better. Also nice to have another must-answer creature for the opponent to deal with, too.
I could see testing out what happens if we drop confidant from this type of list, go up to 20 lands (or just a more fetch-heavy manabase), and adding tireless tracker. This would give an aggressive creature that didn't depend on the graveyard and can give cards over the long game to the deck.
The sideboard Grim Lavamancer obviously has some less than stellar interactions at times but still a great card when needed. Another thought would be Shadow Guildmage, which I always forget is modern legal. I'm not sure if the "I dont want to eat my graveyard" aspect is worth the tradeoff in cmc, life total, and less damage. Probably not, but its an option.
Yeah I couldn't find anything either creature wise. I agree that the 4 cmc on Night of Souls betrayal is a bit of an issue for me. I think I'd lean on Liliana the Last Hope if I wanted dedicated X/1 hate. It's a little bit slower about clearing up things on board but it's upside is really high considering all the creatures we are already running.
Yea, in my abzan traverse I just run Lili Last Hope and call it a day anyway. Would do the same here.
If you are running Treetop then I think you are definitely running Blackcleave Cliffs to make up for the missing red sources.
I think that given no bolts as a t1 red requirement I'd still shift to Blooming Marsh as the fastland and just make the first fetch grab the Blood Crypt / Stomping Ground. Nothing would feel more awful than a Blackcleave Cliffs as my 1 land in the opener alongside a Traverse. As long as you just need a single red source to cast anything in the 75, it shouldn't be that much of an issue.
I was running Night of Soul's Betrayal in my traditional Jund list's sideboard as well. I wonder if there is a creature that can accomplish a similar task that way when you bring it in, it can be tutored for with Traverse.
First off - nice writeup earlier today. Sounds like your suboptimal "claimless" version is working out pretty well. I haven't had a chance to try it out aside from goldfishing so far.
When I ran Night of Souls Betrayal I would typically bring it in against affinity, infect, and lingering souls / token type decks. Obviously, its good against all of these but most of those decks are ones where I want bob to live, too and I would be placed in that annoying situation of having dead cards in hand. If I'm terribly concerned about lingering souls and other spirit / soldier tokens I would probably use Illness in the Ranks now, especially if dropping to 19 lands. Yea, its decayable and only hits tokens - but for 1 mana I think I would be ok w that tradeoff.
I can't think of a creature that gives this effect, even if for a turn, in Jund colors off the top of my head but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Maybe this is the direction (maybe not particularly THIS version) jund needs to go. With the emergence of Jund shadow and Grixis shadow and their 18-19 land base, the added 6 lands from the traditional midrange is SO noticeable now. Having traverse as an early land and then a tutored threat sounds like a good idea.
Agree on this one - after playing a few months w 19ish lands + traverse I dont know if I could really go back to the classic 24 land builds. Having 4 tutors in a midrange deck is sick, especially if you can manage to get a good mix of threat / bullets / utility out of the creatures and lands.
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What do you think it tells us?
Seems like he tried some relatively unconventional things and they either worked out in his favor or he dodged the bad matchups (or combination of both).
"There's more that red offers than just bolts" would be my answer. Having played a lot of rock over the last few weeks, it is a solid deck but has trouble in dealing with higher cmc threats without resorting to conditional removal spells like Go for the Throat or less efficient spells like Maelstrom Pulse. You also get access to solid 4 drops like Olivia Voldaren and Huntmaster of the Fells and sideboard staples such as Ancient Grudge.
Lightning Bolt has become somewhat weaker but it can deal with a lot of the lesser toughness 3+ drop creatures that people have started moving to in an attempt to avoid Fatal Push like Tireless Tracker, Goblin Rabblemaster, all of the cmc reducing creatures from Storm, etc. It can also provide the reach to end a game as well as kill planeswalkers. Should you be running a full four? Maybe, maybe not. Meta call, yadda^3.
I assumed he would bring the Feed the Clan in against scapeshift in addition to burn and the typical aggro decks. I've never found it to be worth the slot(s), for what its worth.
Glad I'm not the only one thinking having them in G2 is odd. I always board out discard for that matchup since many times its essentially dead on turn one. Whats the rationale for keeping them in?
Yea, I think if I'm running excavator I would want to abuse things other than fetchlands and the occasional ravine.
There's also typically 3x Hissing Quagmire in BG builds now too. Most people forget it has DT, similar to forgetting reach on Stirring Wildwood.
Are you still testing out Anathemancer in the board? I'll have my Claim // Fame this week and will give the build a whirl then.
Also able to kill Reality Smasher without needing to discard or pitch it to Smasher's discard clause and take out a TKS, etc. Is it a straight up replacement for Terminate? On paper, no - but given the overall meta, its not a terrible card to think about.
I stopped using them a long time ago when I realized that most times that I brought them in it was just because I had too much to board out and needed to have 15 cards in my sideboard.
If you're only running 1 bolt, any thought to just putting Grim Lavamancer there instead?
Obvious trepidation of flipping Tasigur to Bob aside, I like the main deck if for no other reason than I have a desire in my builds to never go below 3 bolts. Do you find that the more versatile but not as good Rakdos Charm and Jund Charm are better than options like Grafdigger's Cage Ancient Grudge Nihil Spellbomb, etc? I realize that since you're running 3 of each Fulminator Mage and Kitchen Finks that your space is tight so was the thinking "well i only have 2 slots so I'll go w charms here"?
I've been liking Flaying Tendrils over Anger of the Gods lately. Same exile clause for slightly less painful mana requirements while actually killing Etched Champion through metalcraft. I would probably max Fulminator Mage at 2 copies and move that slot to a second Maelstrom Pulse due to it being all-around good. Similarly I'd probably drop to a single Grafdigger's Cage and use that to roll w some GY hate for decks that don't care about the cage - Nihil Spellbomb being my go-to there. I am not a huge Shatterstorm fan but some people swear by it. I like 2 Ancient Grudge more.
This is why I've been trying to find optimal lists for him since he came out, even if he can be maddening at times. Once he hits once you basically get on a gravy train of only drawing what you want / need.
Yup.
Having played Abzan traverse (0 bob) and "classic flayer jund" (4 bob 4 flayer 4 goyf), the only thing I missed in abzan was the awesome interaction they have together. If drawing 1 card I cherry pick from my top three is great then two cards is even better. Also nice to have another must-answer creature for the opponent to deal with, too.
I could see testing out what happens if we drop confidant from this type of list, go up to 20 lands (or just a more fetch-heavy manabase), and adding tireless tracker. This would give an aggressive creature that didn't depend on the graveyard and can give cards over the long game to the deck.
The sideboard Grim Lavamancer obviously has some less than stellar interactions at times but still a great card when needed. Another thought would be Shadow Guildmage, which I always forget is modern legal. I'm not sure if the "I dont want to eat my graveyard" aspect is worth the tradeoff in cmc, life total, and less damage. Probably not, but its an option.
Yea, in my abzan traverse I just run Lili Last Hope and call it a day anyway. Would do the same here.
edit:
I think that given no bolts as a t1 red requirement I'd still shift to Blooming Marsh as the fastland and just make the first fetch grab the Blood Crypt / Stomping Ground. Nothing would feel more awful than a Blackcleave Cliffs as my 1 land in the opener alongside a Traverse. As long as you just need a single red source to cast anything in the 75, it shouldn't be that much of an issue.
First off - nice writeup earlier today. Sounds like your suboptimal "claimless" version is working out pretty well. I haven't had a chance to try it out aside from goldfishing so far.
When I ran Night of Souls Betrayal I would typically bring it in against affinity, infect, and lingering souls / token type decks. Obviously, its good against all of these but most of those decks are ones where I want bob to live, too and I would be placed in that annoying situation of having dead cards in hand. If I'm terribly concerned about lingering souls and other spirit / soldier tokens I would probably use Illness in the Ranks now, especially if dropping to 19 lands. Yea, its decayable and only hits tokens - but for 1 mana I think I would be ok w that tradeoff.
I can't think of a creature that gives this effect, even if for a turn, in Jund colors off the top of my head but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Agree on this one - after playing a few months w 19ish lands + traverse I dont know if I could really go back to the classic 24 land builds. Having 4 tutors in a midrange deck is sick, especially if you can manage to get a good mix of threat / bullets / utility out of the creatures and lands.