I feel like if we cant play 4-colors reliably, the only way this idea would work consistently would be if we had more ways to take advantage of our graveyard/cards we're dumping there within our 3 colors. We need a spell that fills the LIngering Souls role but in Jund colors for this to be worthwhile.
I'm not 100% sold on playing Faithless looting w/o Lingering Souls or some other card that has graveyard vallue to back it up.
I feel like while the card selection is great, we'd be relying too much on Revelers to make up for the card disadvantage that Looting represents.
ALso might consider Collective Brutalities main deck to dump out excess revelers, one of the recurrent gimmicks on Mardu Pyro is that they never want Bedlams on their hand too early or in mutiple copies, so they dish them out tto the graveyard and draw them back with Kcommand when the time is right.
I personally am also not too sold in Traverse either, seems like yet another card that may go wrong if we dont have Looting to back it up. We cant forget that even when running 4x Lootings that isnt a guarantee we will always have access to it early.
I think that for the deck to really be worthwhile over Mardu it needs to either have Lingering Souls or have access to some other card that makes faithless Looting worthwhile other than just revelers.
I've played a 4-Color list that was pretty much the suggested mix-breed between Mardu and Jund, but running Lingering Souls at my shop last night and went 4-1, it felt extremly powerful but I might add that I was playing in a known meta where I knew I'd not be facing many bloodmoons.
Lingering Souls is just too great. It wrecks control / midrange decks, affinity and its defnetly not a dead card vs. Aggro. And with faithless looting, it pretty much makes your Looting a cantrip that draws you actual stuff.
I know you directed your message towards FlyingDelver, but I'd like to give my 2 cents about some of the things you commented on:
In regards of Maelstrom Pulse, I'd personally not consider moving it to the sideboard. You state that if it is there to kill big creatures, you'd rather terminate. And if it is there to deal with leyline, you'd rather other cards too. But the thing is, its there to kill both things, and artifacts, and planeswalkers altogether in just one card. That's versatility, and that's very important. It may not be the best card at doing any specific job, but its a card that "does it all", which is very good and necessary.
Also, I think we tend to forget how valluable Maelstrom Pulse's gimmick of killing "any cards of the same name" is. Mardu Pyromancer will surelly make a mass of Lingering Souls eventually, and the only card in our deck that deals well with that pre-sideboard is Pulse. Jeskai Control is likelly to eventually pull off a "Secure the Wastes". Humans run phantom images, so they often have "same-name" creatures on the field and, in the end of the day, pretty much every deck runs full playsets of their creatures so its not that rare to find yourself in situations where the Pulse is a 2 for 1.
Its "range" is far more broad than we usually give credit. I like the card in my mainboard and its nowhere near the list of cards I'd consider cutting.
I personally like Liliana the Last hope. I somewhat agree with what you said as in she isnt always THAT impactful, but even vs. Control decks where they dont have creatures on the field for her +1 to work, I've found her fetching me back a creature from my graveyard while still threatening to do that again in 2 turns, forcing my opponent to bolt her still. So, essentially, a 2 for 1 potentially. I'd keep it around, personally.
Now, a card that has disappointing me from time to time is Fatal Push. As amazing as it is of a card, I've been seeing way too many Hollow Ones, Eldrazis and other decks that might play a high-cmc creatures. I feel like Fatal Push felt better when Death Shadow was a huge deal, but latelly I've been inclined to trimming it down to a 1-of and brining 2x Terminates instead. I dont think Jund, with its lack of card selection (And sometimes lack of card draw) can afford playing too many cards that are too specific.
4x Bolts still feel right for me though. Its versatile. Can help me close up games, kills lots of stuff, kills planeswalkers, and if I'm facing a card with 4+ health I can usually just use the bolt teamed up with a Ko-Command, LoTH+1, some creature's blocking or even a Huntmaster's flip or whatever. There are ways of turning a bolt into a heavy removal. Latelly, the only moments I really feel like Fatal Push did something other cards wouldnt nowadays is vs. Collonades, but vs. Control decks we can bring as many terminates as we'd want, since pace usually isnt a problem in those matches.
My list looks exactly the same as Delver's right now, except that instead of running 2 Trackers MB I'm running 1 tracker + 1 Huntmaster.
Also instead of 3 IOK + 3Thoughtseize I'm running 3 IOK + 2 Thoughtseize and 4 bolts + 2 pushes.
I only gave this list one run so far, but was a 4-1 at the local Modern night last wednesday. Only loss was to Jeskai control 2-1, but it was a darn close game all along. Wins were over Hollow One, RG Eldrazi, Grixis Control and Burn. The rest was all 2-0 wins. Felt very good.
Right, I can see 24 lands being fine.
Like I said, with Faithless looting, drawing too many lands/too few become a lot less of a issue as you can just kick them out to the graveyward when they're too many, or dig for more when they're too few.
2x BBE's seems fine in a Faithless Looting. I'm sure we'd still find them quite consistently at the right time and we can always have a 3rd or 4th in the sidebaord for the right matchups.
How do you feel about HUntmaster of the Fells though ?
I think he is often worse than BBE, but he's defnetly A LOT more reliable when it comes to getting vallue out of him. I've been running 1x main deck (I run 3x BBE + 1 of him) and I still love him.
I know I've been insisting on this, but I'm still very un-pleased with the randomness of BBE, at least when we are having to try versions of this deck that arent built around her which lowers the likeability of good hits. Huntmaster is always the first card that comes to my mind when I try to think of a 4cmc card that always have at least paid its bill.
I dont see how this is about "Being obsessed with Faithless Looting right now."
We're a Red, Green and Black deck.
So far, the Diagnosis of us, Jund players, have been that the deck needs better filtering and card selection so that we dont Flood/Clunk as much aswell as to avoid relying so much on just top-decking our way out of situations.
The usual consensus is that decks with good Filtering/Cycling/Cantrips are the way to fix that issue.
Faithless Looting is just the natural first card to come to mind.
I'd have to make some experiments to come up with something solid.
But I'd probably start off cutting a couple BBE's. I feel like they get objectivelly worse in a Faithless Looting deck (Since that's a very poor cascade hit.) I can see some BBE's going to the sideboard instead of mainboard so that we have them vs. Blue decks where, IMO, they really shine.
I also dont think its insane running 23/24 lands instead of 24/25 if we're running Faithless Lootings. The card lets you dig for 2 extra cards, which should fix a lot of land issues very often... If we look into Jeskai Control, for instance, they run about the same ammount of lands as us (24/25) and have a MUCH heavier curve (4x Snaps = 3cmc+ cards, 4x Commands = 4cmc each, and 2 Teferis = 5cmc cards. Not to mention 2x verdicts.) and it works out. IMO the reason that works for them is because they have such an easy time selecting their draws with Cantrips so that they can avoid flooding too much while also avoid missing land drops as often as we may do.
cantrips and filtering "unclunk" awkward manabases.
Another card that I could see being a 3x of is LOTV in a Looting deck, idk.
The cool thing about running Faithless Looting IMO is that you can kind-of cut cards and that doesnt mean they wont show up, as often, as you cycle through your deck so much more that its easier to dig copies of the cards you want. I hasnt run the math, but maybe a deck with, say, 3+2 1cmc removals can find them just about as often as a deck with 4+2 but no Looting.
I sometimes play Hollow One (I know, I'm an infidel) and if there is something that the deck has REALLY impressed me with is how you can sideboard just 1 or 2 silver bullets and you'll still very consistently find them just out of how much cycling the deck goes through, that is really awesome when it comes to sidebaording aswell as consistency for a deck.
Have anyone tried running a list with Faithless Looting yet ? While trimming down 1 or 2 BBE's + 1 or 2 lands for them ?
Seems like we do need something to make us more consistent on what we find and when.
Ever since BBE got unbanned, as powerful of a card as it is, Ive been very unimpressed.
When I make more threat-heavy, fast Jund versions I feel like my BBE's fail me a lot.
When I make 25 lands with lots of powerful BBE findings I feel like my deck gets clunky.
Sometimes I really just miss running a Jund with no 4 drops or with just a huntmaster or two and thats it.
Okay, so, I'm going today at the local modern with a list running 2x Flayers, 3x Confidants... 3x BBE's + 1 Huntmaster... 3x LOTV's + 1 LTHP.
Also, instead of running that Nihill Spellbomb maindeck I'll be running a single Tarfire (Without taking away the 4x Bolts + 2x Pushes package.)
My reasoning:
1x Tarfire instead of 1x Spellbomb: There are not many Hollow Ones, if any, at my local meta. There are, however, A LOT of humans and burn. Tarfire seems superior to a Spellbomb against both.
3x BBE + 1x Huntmaster: Since my local meta has a lot of Human and Burn, I like the idea of making room for a Huntmaster. I chose him instead of Kalitas because we dont have Hollow Ones around, and because I feel like he's overall more versatile. Kalitas can be a bit bad against certain MU's. And while Huntmaster may not always be AMAZING (He sometimes is), its defnetly always at least worth its cost, reason why I like him as a MB more, and rather Kalitas at SB.
3x LOTV + 1 LTHP: I'm down with trimming Liliana of the veil from 4x. to 3x. Since I'm expecting to run into lots of Burns and Humans, I feel like she's not that great there.
3x Confidant + 2x Grim Flayer: Gonna try this for the first time today, but i Like the idea in general. Bob gets boarded out against burn and that's what I'm expecting to see a lot of, and as it stands, card quality is being more precious than card advantage nowadays, I cant remember how many times I lost to a Human while having a stacked hand just cause I couldnt keep up.
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Note: I'm also running 4x INquisition + 2x Thoughtseize. Considering that I'm bringing 7x 1cmc removals (4x bolts, 2x pushes, 1x tarfire) is this overkill ? I'm worrying about maybe seeing too many 1cmc cards in my hands and no threats, which is leading me to contemplate having 1x Lavamancer instead of that Tarfire. I just worry Lavamancer could get on the way of my Grim Flayers's Delirium.
If we're gonna start trying some Grim Flayers in our build, are you sure we shouldnt consider running a couple of Tarfires alongside our Bolts/Pushes ?
The way I see it, it hits most of the things a bolt would. And I really like the idea of making my Goyfs 5/6 or 6/7 more often.
Are we running 2 or 3 Flayers ?
Any thoughts on Traverse the Ulvenwald ? I keep seeing people bringing it up, but has anyone actually tested it ? I have briefly toyed with it shortly after BBE was unbanned and I quite liked it as a tool to either get us the mana we need to reach BBE cost, or fetch BBE's and sideboard creatures.
I even toyed with the idea of having a 1x Shriekmaw in the deck to work as a fetcheable removal spell. (That can also come down as a creature sometimes.)
I'm very tempted on running a list with Traverse so that I get to play 23 or 24 lands.
I dont see switching 4x Bolts for maybe 2-2 with Tarfires being a big issue, as almost everything bolt kills a tarfire would too.
Playing one or two Traverses would also allow to get cratures on-demand. Which would be sick. Would let us run 2 or 3 BBE's but still teoretically have 4 chances of finding one in a grindy game.
Allow us to run a 1 of Kalitas or Huntmaster and still always have them when needed.
Fetching a Scooze for grave hate ? Fulminators for Land destruction ?
Sounds sweet. Would defnetly help our "Top deck the right piece" issue while at the same time allowing us to run a less floody curve.
So. I ran a "old Jund" build with main-deck Grim lavamancer and 2x Huntmasters and no BBE whatsoever and I liked it better at my local meta. (Lots of burn and Humans.)
I went 4-1 yesterday, with my loss being to a Tron.
Another personal choices also were:
Running 4 Bolts + 2 Pushes.
Running 3 Inquisitions + 2 Seizes.
Lili, the last hope main deck.
Landcount was 23.
I feel like cards like Lavamancer, Huntmaster and Kalitas are the way to go vs. Humans (And maybe Hollow one to an extent) as they have "staying power" and allow us to kill creatures recurrently, instead of relying on finding our removal. No matter what we do, Jund will always have less answers than decks like Humans and Hollowone have threats.
So cards that, if left alive, can give us answers every turn are the way to go.
Huntmaster offers us blockers when it flips one way, and kills threats when it flips the other. Also, if it gets bounced with Reflector Mage its o.k.
Lavamancer is just awesome if we find it early
Lili, last hope kills Ghasts and hierarchs, Nullifies incoming damage.
And so on.
As much as I think BBE is an amazing card, I too have been underwhelmed with her in the current meta. At least where I play at, there is a strong prevalence of Burn, Human, Ponza, CoCo decks (And tron too).
vs. Aggro decks I feel like the sacrifice we make to run 4x BBE's maindeck, that being, having a much clunkier mana-base, with less early interactions and risking some very slow opening hands made us a lot worse in aggro match-ups that, in my opinion, the old Jund with 0-2 4 drops (Like someone mentioned) would have fared better more consistently.
Trusting a RNG card to save us when playing vs. Decks like Human where we need a very specific card, and the likeability that such card will get pulled in cascade is around 30ish % is bad.
BBE Jund shines more than old jund vs. Midrange and Control decks, where card-advantage matters a lot more, and where we dont get punished as much for playing tapped lands or having a slow opening hand. Matchups where our Raging Ravines actually eventually turn into creatures and card advantage, rather than matches where we're suffocating by turn 4.
vs. Tron, I'm on the boat that, while BBE has made the match slightly better, its still bloody bad. And our hope vs. Tron remains the same as before: Sideboard and/or Tron losing to themselves.
vs. Ponza (There are plenty at my local shop) BBE rarelly feels like a game-changer. Odds are high that Ponza wont let me get to 4cmc so soon. So its often a dead card. What DOES win the matchup for me is an early bolt to their mana-dorks or a discard followed by a Goyf or Bob early.
I personally have decided that I'll try forgetting BBE for a bit until I start seeing more MIdrange/Control decks again, and instead I'll just run a old Jund decklist with 1 or 2x Huntmasters as my only 4cmc drops, 23 or 24 lands, And +2~3 reliable interactions. Maybe play Grim Lava main deck again.
I really like my Huntmasters, they're reliable and consistent, and since Humans and Hollow Ones run none or close to no removal, I get to flip him a lot. If a burn spends a spell to kill him, then I pretty much got a body to block, 1 spell minus to my face, and +2 health. Which is awesome. He is kinda slow vs. Combo and Tron, but like I said, what beats these decks most of the time for us is Sideboard + Luck + A turn 2 big goyf anyway. (Although if allowed to Flip a huntmaster hits for 8)
I feel like the card I deeply wish we'd have unbanned for our list is DeathRite Shaman over BBE. Heheh!
Would be lovelly to have a faster tempo vs. Decks like Humans and be able to cast a turn 3 HuntM and completelly control the board from there, or a turn 2 Lili.
versus Hollow Ones it'd offer extra Grave hate for Vengevines and Blodghasts, vs. Burn it'd heal us up. And it'd even help with our "too many lands and tapped lands" issue as we maybe could run less lands thanks to having Mana-Dorks.
Regardless, I surelly would trade DeathRite for BBE in the current meta any day. Well, one can only dream, right?
We've had a couple weird lists here and there.
Just last week smeone won with a "old jund" list without BBE's and 2 Huntmasters.
And a couple more weeks ago we had that weird weird decklist with NO dark confidants, 2 Glorybringers main deck. Making it far in Madrid.
At least in my local meta, I've been a bit underwhelmed with BloodBraid elf. Personally.
She sometimes is stunningly good, but when I think about how often I'd feel more safe casting a huntmaster or having more reliable interactions/less floody mana-base and heavy opening hands, it does seem like its a card I feel very insecure about. More and more when I see her in my hand I think "Please dont fail me again" rather than "hell yeah, that OP card."
I get it that Jund is a deck that, thanks to our excellent manlands, gets to run a lot of lands and not regret it as much. But that is only really true on grindy matchups. How often do you see your Raging Ravine saving the day vs. Hollow one or Burn ? But all the while, how often a 3/4 lands opening hand with a BBE in it makes you lose those matches ?
Maybe we should re-think the "4 BBE in every list" idea and try to slowly trim it down ? I dont know.
Or maybe just use the fact we are such a versatile deck that pretty much can take any shape and shape ourselves accordingly to the meta, instead of accordingly to having BBE's avaiable. Maybe we Jund players have spent so much time thinking "How we best use BBE here !?" that we forgot about a more important question: "How should Jund look like in the current meta?"
BBE is great, but is this the time for BBE to shine ?
I'm personally 50-50
I think Jund is better than its been for a while, but I dont think its quite tier 1 again yet.
BBE is great, but the matches where it is AMAZING are rare, and the matches where it is a card that can greatly vary from very bad to very good are far too many.
Sometimes I feel like bringing in the "old Jund" with just 2 Huntmasters, a lower mana curve, 23/24 lands, more terminates/interaction and seeing how it fares. Sometimes I feel like by the time I start casting my BBE's the game is already looking ugly and I have to pray for a 30% chance of BBE drawing something crazy that saves my ass... I think when the meta-game shifts to more interactive, midrange/control decks its when Jund will be at its best again, now with BBE, we have a very strong "2 for 1" build and can even go toe-to-toe with KolaghanSnap decks late game while still being more agressive early.
I really like it that BBE can draw our sidedeck tho. But then again, if we're already 0-1 then things are already looking bad anyway.
At my local shop there is a lot of Burn and Humans, and I've personally been enjoying my Huntmasters more than my BBE's in those matchups. Dont know about Hollow one, we have none in our local.
We also do have plenty of Trons, but BBE rarelly saves me from them either, what DOES save me is my Sideboard being stacked with Crumble to dusts and Fulminators lol.
I feel like while the card selection is great, we'd be relying too much on Revelers to make up for the card disadvantage that Looting represents.
ALso might consider Collective Brutalities main deck to dump out excess revelers, one of the recurrent gimmicks on Mardu Pyro is that they never want Bedlams on their hand too early or in mutiple copies, so they dish them out tto the graveyard and draw them back with Kcommand when the time is right.
I personally am also not too sold in Traverse either, seems like yet another card that may go wrong if we dont have Looting to back it up. We cant forget that even when running 4x Lootings that isnt a guarantee we will always have access to it early.
I think that for the deck to really be worthwhile over Mardu it needs to either have Lingering Souls or have access to some other card that makes faithless Looting worthwhile other than just revelers.
I've played a 4-Color list that was pretty much the suggested mix-breed between Mardu and Jund, but running Lingering Souls at my shop last night and went 4-1, it felt extremly powerful but I might add that I was playing in a known meta where I knew I'd not be facing many bloodmoons.
Lingering Souls is just too great. It wrecks control / midrange decks, affinity and its defnetly not a dead card vs. Aggro. And with faithless looting, it pretty much makes your Looting a cantrip that draws you actual stuff.
I know you directed your message towards FlyingDelver, but I'd like to give my 2 cents about some of the things you commented on:
In regards of Maelstrom Pulse, I'd personally not consider moving it to the sideboard. You state that if it is there to kill big creatures, you'd rather terminate. And if it is there to deal with leyline, you'd rather other cards too. But the thing is, its there to kill both things, and artifacts, and planeswalkers altogether in just one card. That's versatility, and that's very important. It may not be the best card at doing any specific job, but its a card that "does it all", which is very good and necessary.
Also, I think we tend to forget how valluable Maelstrom Pulse's gimmick of killing "any cards of the same name" is. Mardu Pyromancer will surelly make a mass of Lingering Souls eventually, and the only card in our deck that deals well with that pre-sideboard is Pulse. Jeskai Control is likelly to eventually pull off a "Secure the Wastes". Humans run phantom images, so they often have "same-name" creatures on the field and, in the end of the day, pretty much every deck runs full playsets of their creatures so its not that rare to find yourself in situations where the Pulse is a 2 for 1.
Its "range" is far more broad than we usually give credit. I like the card in my mainboard and its nowhere near the list of cards I'd consider cutting.
I personally like Liliana the Last hope. I somewhat agree with what you said as in she isnt always THAT impactful, but even vs. Control decks where they dont have creatures on the field for her +1 to work, I've found her fetching me back a creature from my graveyard while still threatening to do that again in 2 turns, forcing my opponent to bolt her still. So, essentially, a 2 for 1 potentially. I'd keep it around, personally.
Now, a card that has disappointing me from time to time is Fatal Push. As amazing as it is of a card, I've been seeing way too many Hollow Ones, Eldrazis and other decks that might play a high-cmc creatures. I feel like Fatal Push felt better when Death Shadow was a huge deal, but latelly I've been inclined to trimming it down to a 1-of and brining 2x Terminates instead. I dont think Jund, with its lack of card selection (And sometimes lack of card draw) can afford playing too many cards that are too specific.
4x Bolts still feel right for me though. Its versatile. Can help me close up games, kills lots of stuff, kills planeswalkers, and if I'm facing a card with 4+ health I can usually just use the bolt teamed up with a Ko-Command, LoTH+1, some creature's blocking or even a Huntmaster's flip or whatever. There are ways of turning a bolt into a heavy removal. Latelly, the only moments I really feel like Fatal Push did something other cards wouldnt nowadays is vs. Collonades, but vs. Control decks we can bring as many terminates as we'd want, since pace usually isnt a problem in those matches.
Also instead of 3 IOK + 3Thoughtseize I'm running 3 IOK + 2 Thoughtseize and 4 bolts + 2 pushes.
I only gave this list one run so far, but was a 4-1 at the local Modern night last wednesday. Only loss was to Jeskai control 2-1, but it was a darn close game all along. Wins were over Hollow One, RG Eldrazi, Grixis Control and Burn. The rest was all 2-0 wins. Felt very good.
Like I said, with Faithless looting, drawing too many lands/too few become a lot less of a issue as you can just kick them out to the graveyward when they're too many, or dig for more when they're too few.
2x BBE's seems fine in a Faithless Looting. I'm sure we'd still find them quite consistently at the right time and we can always have a 3rd or 4th in the sidebaord for the right matchups.
How do you feel about HUntmaster of the Fells though ?
I think he is often worse than BBE, but he's defnetly A LOT more reliable when it comes to getting vallue out of him. I've been running 1x main deck (I run 3x BBE + 1 of him) and I still love him.
I know I've been insisting on this, but I'm still very un-pleased with the randomness of BBE, at least when we are having to try versions of this deck that arent built around her which lowers the likeability of good hits. Huntmaster is always the first card that comes to my mind when I try to think of a 4cmc card that always have at least paid its bill.
We're a Red, Green and Black deck.
So far, the Diagnosis of us, Jund players, have been that the deck needs better filtering and card selection so that we dont Flood/Clunk as much aswell as to avoid relying so much on just top-decking our way out of situations.
The usual consensus is that decks with good Filtering/Cycling/Cantrips are the way to fix that issue.
Faithless Looting is just the natural first card to come to mind.
But I'd probably start off cutting a couple BBE's. I feel like they get objectivelly worse in a Faithless Looting deck (Since that's a very poor cascade hit.) I can see some BBE's going to the sideboard instead of mainboard so that we have them vs. Blue decks where, IMO, they really shine.
I also dont think its insane running 23/24 lands instead of 24/25 if we're running Faithless Lootings. The card lets you dig for 2 extra cards, which should fix a lot of land issues very often... If we look into Jeskai Control, for instance, they run about the same ammount of lands as us (24/25) and have a MUCH heavier curve (4x Snaps = 3cmc+ cards, 4x Commands = 4cmc each, and 2 Teferis = 5cmc cards. Not to mention 2x verdicts.) and it works out. IMO the reason that works for them is because they have such an easy time selecting their draws with Cantrips so that they can avoid flooding too much while also avoid missing land drops as often as we may do.
cantrips and filtering "unclunk" awkward manabases.
Another card that I could see being a 3x of is LOTV in a Looting deck, idk.
The cool thing about running Faithless Looting IMO is that you can kind-of cut cards and that doesnt mean they wont show up, as often, as you cycle through your deck so much more that its easier to dig copies of the cards you want. I hasnt run the math, but maybe a deck with, say, 3+2 1cmc removals can find them just about as often as a deck with 4+2 but no Looting.
I sometimes play Hollow One (I know, I'm an infidel) and if there is something that the deck has REALLY impressed me with is how you can sideboard just 1 or 2 silver bullets and you'll still very consistently find them just out of how much cycling the deck goes through, that is really awesome when it comes to sidebaording aswell as consistency for a deck.
Seems like we do need something to make us more consistent on what we find and when.
Ever since BBE got unbanned, as powerful of a card as it is, Ive been very unimpressed.
When I make more threat-heavy, fast Jund versions I feel like my BBE's fail me a lot.
When I make 25 lands with lots of powerful BBE findings I feel like my deck gets clunky.
Sometimes I really just miss running a Jund with no 4 drops or with just a huntmaster or two and thats it.
Also, instead of running that Nihill Spellbomb maindeck I'll be running a single Tarfire (Without taking away the 4x Bolts + 2x Pushes package.)
My reasoning:
1x Tarfire instead of 1x Spellbomb: There are not many Hollow Ones, if any, at my local meta. There are, however, A LOT of humans and burn. Tarfire seems superior to a Spellbomb against both.
3x BBE + 1x Huntmaster: Since my local meta has a lot of Human and Burn, I like the idea of making room for a Huntmaster. I chose him instead of Kalitas because we dont have Hollow Ones around, and because I feel like he's overall more versatile. Kalitas can be a bit bad against certain MU's. And while Huntmaster may not always be AMAZING (He sometimes is), its defnetly always at least worth its cost, reason why I like him as a MB more, and rather Kalitas at SB.
3x LOTV + 1 LTHP: I'm down with trimming Liliana of the veil from 4x. to 3x. Since I'm expecting to run into lots of Burns and Humans, I feel like she's not that great there.
3x Confidant + 2x Grim Flayer: Gonna try this for the first time today, but i Like the idea in general. Bob gets boarded out against burn and that's what I'm expecting to see a lot of, and as it stands, card quality is being more precious than card advantage nowadays, I cant remember how many times I lost to a Human while having a stacked hand just cause I couldnt keep up.
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Note: I'm also running 4x INquisition + 2x Thoughtseize. Considering that I'm bringing 7x 1cmc removals (4x bolts, 2x pushes, 1x tarfire) is this overkill ? I'm worrying about maybe seeing too many 1cmc cards in my hands and no threats, which is leading me to contemplate having 1x Lavamancer instead of that Tarfire. I just worry Lavamancer could get on the way of my Grim Flayers's Delirium.
The way I see it, it hits most of the things a bolt would. And I really like the idea of making my Goyfs 5/6 or 6/7 more often.
Are we running 2 or 3 Flayers ?
Any thoughts on Traverse the Ulvenwald ? I keep seeing people bringing it up, but has anyone actually tested it ? I have briefly toyed with it shortly after BBE was unbanned and I quite liked it as a tool to either get us the mana we need to reach BBE cost, or fetch BBE's and sideboard creatures.
I even toyed with the idea of having a 1x Shriekmaw in the deck to work as a fetcheable removal spell. (That can also come down as a creature sometimes.)
I dont see switching 4x Bolts for maybe 2-2 with Tarfires being a big issue, as almost everything bolt kills a tarfire would too.
Playing one or two Traverses would also allow to get cratures on-demand. Which would be sick. Would let us run 2 or 3 BBE's but still teoretically have 4 chances of finding one in a grindy game.
Allow us to run a 1 of Kalitas or Huntmaster and still always have them when needed.
Fetching a Scooze for grave hate ? Fulminators for Land destruction ?
Sounds sweet. Would defnetly help our "Top deck the right piece" issue while at the same time allowing us to run a less floody curve.
I went 4-1 yesterday, with my loss being to a Tron.
Another personal choices also were:
Running 4 Bolts + 2 Pushes.
Running 3 Inquisitions + 2 Seizes.
Lili, the last hope main deck.
Landcount was 23.
I feel like cards like Lavamancer, Huntmaster and Kalitas are the way to go vs. Humans (And maybe Hollow one to an extent) as they have "staying power" and allow us to kill creatures recurrently, instead of relying on finding our removal. No matter what we do, Jund will always have less answers than decks like Humans and Hollowone have threats.
So cards that, if left alive, can give us answers every turn are the way to go.
Huntmaster offers us blockers when it flips one way, and kills threats when it flips the other. Also, if it gets bounced with Reflector Mage its o.k.
Lavamancer is just awesome if we find it early
Lili, last hope kills Ghasts and hierarchs, Nullifies incoming damage.
And so on.
I'll keep my BBE's on the shelf for now...
As much as I think BBE is an amazing card, I too have been underwhelmed with her in the current meta. At least where I play at, there is a strong prevalence of Burn, Human, Ponza, CoCo decks (And tron too).
vs. Aggro decks I feel like the sacrifice we make to run 4x BBE's maindeck, that being, having a much clunkier mana-base, with less early interactions and risking some very slow opening hands made us a lot worse in aggro match-ups that, in my opinion, the old Jund with 0-2 4 drops (Like someone mentioned) would have fared better more consistently.
Trusting a RNG card to save us when playing vs. Decks like Human where we need a very specific card, and the likeability that such card will get pulled in cascade is around 30ish % is bad.
BBE Jund shines more than old jund vs. Midrange and Control decks, where card-advantage matters a lot more, and where we dont get punished as much for playing tapped lands or having a slow opening hand. Matchups where our Raging Ravines actually eventually turn into creatures and card advantage, rather than matches where we're suffocating by turn 4.
vs. Tron, I'm on the boat that, while BBE has made the match slightly better, its still bloody bad. And our hope vs. Tron remains the same as before: Sideboard and/or Tron losing to themselves.
vs. Ponza (There are plenty at my local shop) BBE rarelly feels like a game-changer. Odds are high that Ponza wont let me get to 4cmc so soon. So its often a dead card. What DOES win the matchup for me is an early bolt to their mana-dorks or a discard followed by a Goyf or Bob early.
I personally have decided that I'll try forgetting BBE for a bit until I start seeing more MIdrange/Control decks again, and instead I'll just run a old Jund decklist with 1 or 2x Huntmasters as my only 4cmc drops, 23 or 24 lands, And +2~3 reliable interactions. Maybe play Grim Lava main deck again.
I really like my Huntmasters, they're reliable and consistent, and since Humans and Hollow Ones run none or close to no removal, I get to flip him a lot. If a burn spends a spell to kill him, then I pretty much got a body to block, 1 spell minus to my face, and +2 health. Which is awesome. He is kinda slow vs. Combo and Tron, but like I said, what beats these decks most of the time for us is Sideboard + Luck + A turn 2 big goyf anyway. (Although if allowed to Flip a huntmaster hits for 8)
I feel like the card I deeply wish we'd have unbanned for our list is DeathRite Shaman over BBE. Heheh!
Would be lovelly to have a faster tempo vs. Decks like Humans and be able to cast a turn 3 HuntM and completelly control the board from there, or a turn 2 Lili.
versus Hollow Ones it'd offer extra Grave hate for Vengevines and Blodghasts, vs. Burn it'd heal us up. And it'd even help with our "too many lands and tapped lands" issue as we maybe could run less lands thanks to having Mana-Dorks.
Regardless, I surelly would trade DeathRite for BBE in the current meta any day. Well, one can only dream, right?
Just last week smeone won with a "old jund" list without BBE's and 2 Huntmasters.
And a couple more weeks ago we had that weird weird decklist with NO dark confidants, 2 Glorybringers main deck. Making it far in Madrid.
At least in my local meta, I've been a bit underwhelmed with BloodBraid elf. Personally.
She sometimes is stunningly good, but when I think about how often I'd feel more safe casting a huntmaster or having more reliable interactions/less floody mana-base and heavy opening hands, it does seem like its a card I feel very insecure about. More and more when I see her in my hand I think "Please dont fail me again" rather than "hell yeah, that OP card."
I get it that Jund is a deck that, thanks to our excellent manlands, gets to run a lot of lands and not regret it as much. But that is only really true on grindy matchups. How often do you see your Raging Ravine saving the day vs. Hollow one or Burn ? But all the while, how often a 3/4 lands opening hand with a BBE in it makes you lose those matches ?
Maybe we should re-think the "4 BBE in every list" idea and try to slowly trim it down ? I dont know.
Or maybe just use the fact we are such a versatile deck that pretty much can take any shape and shape ourselves accordingly to the meta, instead of accordingly to having BBE's avaiable. Maybe we Jund players have spent so much time thinking "How we best use BBE here !?" that we forgot about a more important question: "How should Jund look like in the current meta?"
BBE is great, but is this the time for BBE to shine ?
I think Jund is better than its been for a while, but I dont think its quite tier 1 again yet.
BBE is great, but the matches where it is AMAZING are rare, and the matches where it is a card that can greatly vary from very bad to very good are far too many.
Sometimes I feel like bringing in the "old Jund" with just 2 Huntmasters, a lower mana curve, 23/24 lands, more terminates/interaction and seeing how it fares. Sometimes I feel like by the time I start casting my BBE's the game is already looking ugly and I have to pray for a 30% chance of BBE drawing something crazy that saves my ass... I think when the meta-game shifts to more interactive, midrange/control decks its when Jund will be at its best again, now with BBE, we have a very strong "2 for 1" build and can even go toe-to-toe with KolaghanSnap decks late game while still being more agressive early.
I really like it that BBE can draw our sidedeck tho. But then again, if we're already 0-1 then things are already looking bad anyway.
At my local shop there is a lot of Burn and Humans, and I've personally been enjoying my Huntmasters more than my BBE's in those matchups. Dont know about Hollow one, we have none in our local.
We also do have plenty of Trons, but BBE rarelly saves me from them either, what DOES save me is my Sideboard being stacked with Crumble to dusts and Fulminators lol.