I like having options so Collector or Freebooter is better then just having/being stuck/limited with one. Who knows how the meta will swing which may push both these cards to not being as useful. So far we've seen a good amount of Humans but nothing as potentially impactful/useful yet as the Unclaimed Territory.
Probably better than Sin Collector in Black / Rainbow builds? Has flying, and can come down on turn 2 (even without a dork) ahead of Anger of the Gods or Karn. Only temporary exiling, though. I might try running 3 in the SB.
Came here to post this.
Not sure whether it replaces Sin Collector or works in tandem with him (probably via a mix of main and sideboard slots), but either way this is looking like a pretty sweet addition!
Edit: After further thought, the choice between Freebooter and Collector isn't going to be an easy one. Freebooter is pretty bad against sweepers compared with Collector, for instance. Collector's CMC 3 isn't necessary slower with 6/8 mana dorks in most lists that run him, either--and his base power of 2 is relevant surprisingly often.
Its probably too early to tell but I think since Freebooter hits Planeswalkers, Artifacts and Enchantments also it can has a chance to be better then Sin Collector in some cases. And yeah Collector takes out the card more permanently.
Do you guys think Deadeye Tracker is a good option here for graveyard hate? I can see it being good in a long game and possibly early game shutting out stuff like a Vengevine or 2 with a creature on the board that can get bigger and filter lands. The downside is the amount of mana it needs to work where as RIP, Cage and Relic dont require as much mana commitment.
The article below isnt a very in depth look and analysis on the deck. There is an interesting card in the side a 1 of Qasali Ambusher and 1 of Abzan Falconer which gives evasion but I wonder why its not a 2 of. I get that the 3 spot has so many options. Ive seen 1 guy rationalize a bunch of different 2 of's to keep the opponent off balance and have better versatility over full playsets in the 3 slots. He ran 12 3 drops Sin, Thalia, Reflector, Mirran, Anafenza and KotR ... I didnt get to see his whole list so I dont know how his other cards compliment his 3 drops.
Ambusher would seem really good against other fast Zoo decks possibly even Burn when they (I) drop Swiftspear/Guide. I may have to test that out in a Naya build.
"It's nice to see a Collected Company deck that isn't trying to assemble some sort of combo, and just aims to maximize its synergy through having creatures that are the same type."
My only concern there is that, at that point, we're not just soft to blood moon, we just straight up lose to it on the spot. Maybe it's like that already, but I like being able to fetch out early basics in those matchups. And having basics to fetch from Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter is often relevant. I'd be more than happy to make such concessions in a blitz aggro build, but not as much in a Company build.
With or with Noble or Avacyn's we're gonna be soft to Blood Moon luckily only a few decks main deck it and side it in my meta. Heck I sometimes run Moon so we'll see. Yes it can get land destroyed and most the time now its Cavern that gets blown up so we'll at least have another option.
As for concessions in builds it maybe early so Im gonna proxy and play test, you maybe right about that.
Effort has helped me vs ETron, Shadow and Knightfall. And Atarka's gives much more punch to a faster version. Still comparing whether the Boros or Naya version is a better option for me. Now I know we dont have generally a lot of slots for non creature cards in the main outside Path and Company for those in the CoCo version.
Each color combo will give you access to different answers/tools/threats. Ive seen list and heard people with success in 2/3 color and 5 color builds. Ive yet to see a Mono White outside of some rogue brews that looked more like DnT rougue builds. Im neither for or against 5 color but I got some good feedback from another player I spoke with and here are thoughts to consider when choosing colors.
1. Will 5 color be too difficult for me/have me run into too many issues of I needed that land but wasnt able to get it or it got taken out.
2. Would packing in too much stuff/colors dilute and make your deck too situation ally dependent/consistent enough.
3. Make sure you look into the advantages/disadvantages/challenges different colors can bring to Humans. Is it worth it long run.
4. Will 2 colors not have enough answers and limit you in your meta or in a blind meta.
5. Blood Moon or Magus can be your friend or a brutal annoyance.
6. Will having 5 color cost too much or worth the cost of mana base.
7. Just because 2/3/4/5 color works for one dosent mean it will work for you cause of variables like meta, play style, skill level, etc.
There are many good posts on here on the benefits of each color and why 1 players prefers 2/3/4/5. And this thread is still new and doesnt have 100's of pages to scroll through.
At this time Im still running Boros/Human Blitz version however it ha sits limitations and strengths that so far is worth it. Im experimenting with either a Naya or American build. Black has some good stuff but its not as good for me is Path > Push yet the hand disruption helps against combo. Ah the choices we make
@kingcars, that was an excellent write up. Any post that can get you to open up explore the many possibilities a deck can be is excellent. Ive been tinkering with different builds also. Just so many ideas but lots of fun playtesting.
All right all as probably the only Humans and Burn player on here that posts some what regularly. A couple of points to help y'all.
1. Burn wins with redundancy and consistent damage however whats even more key is the timing. Example, if you bring in Feed the Clan beware most people dont have more then 2 to 3 life gain Instants yet Burn runs 4 to 8 Skullcrack/Atarka's so timing when you gain that life is key cause lots of times Burn is waiting for it. 2 to 3 vs 4 to 8, odds favor Burn.
2. Skullcrack and Path has helped neutralize some what Kor and Auriok and can do to Burn.
3. Leyline is a good card when you can get it turn 0 to slow Burn a few turns but good luck if you have to hard cast it as Burn generally sides in Artifact/Enchantment answers.
4. Burn preys on decks like Humans cause it has a bunch of 2 for 1 cards that give it advantage like Searing Blaze and/or Searing Blood creature kill face damage, Smash to Smithereens/Destructive Revelry knock out a hate card and do damage, Skullcrack/Atarka's stop life gain and damage to face.
5. Multi color decks that take 4-6 damage the first 2 turns really help Burn. Heck 1 guy who knew I was playing Burn and still did 9 damage for me.......I know fetching basics isnt always an option but cards like Inspiring Vantage do help.
So how to beat Burn using the Human shell....
Option 1 out race using a midrange or 22-24 land build, not likely.
Option 2 side in life gain or anti Burn stuff, possible but got to time it right and heck just draw that card, 2 or 3 out of 60 when you need it, rough.
Option 3 accept the loss and just fold, no way Im a fighter
Consider your meta and how much you see Burn, is it worth it to waste spots on an already tough match cause ya cant side for everything.
When I run Humans and have to deal with Burn, game 1 if Burn goes first its almost always a loss unless they mana flood or just have 1 land until I own the board and attack quick. I run a 20 land speed/blitz style Humans and if I go first the match up isnt as bad as I can sometimes out race. In games 2 and 3 since I run 4 Leylines for Grixis and a few other decks I use them here but if I dont get it turn 0 it wont do much.
Now each situation is different and this is some general info/tips but not hard fast rules for those that run a midrange/22-24 land build.
1. Lets say Burn goes first and drops turn 2 Eidolon taping them out then on your turn 2 you drop land if you have Feed the Clan or Hereos' Reunion use it even if its an Instant and on your turn. That extra life can buy you and extra turn or 2 will help you stabilize the board and possibly get that 4 or 5 land out to do something big like your creatures are now out of Bolt range and you can over run Burn. Watch for Deflecting Palm if your in game 2 or
3. If in game 2 or 3 you and wanna cast lifegain and you see 2 or 3 open mana good chance you could be baited into Skullcrack. There are times its better to cast it their turn after their tapped out or in response to something that taps them out.
2. Burn has trouble with the redundancy of Merfolk and all those Lords pumping creatures out of Bolt range and the ability to lock out their White or Green mana source slowing down Burn since at least 1/3 of the deck needs that 2nd color land. How does this apply to Humans, Land destruction lands and stabilizing the board.
3. The majority of Burn players do not run sweepers like Anger, Flamebreak, Volcanic Fallout at this time but has done so in the past and will again in the future if needed. Other decks that are quick like Elves, Affinity, Speed Zoo can give Burn issues. What can a slower deck take from that, Burn is more worried about Tron, Shadow and big creatures so Path can help them there and Palm can be a game ender. Try to focus more on equal pumping with Thalia's to whatevers on the board rather then having Thalia get big and attacking with 1 big creature that can be hit with Palm.
Now please dont pull the "well if you do this I can do that" stuff cause we can go on all day with you counter my move then I counter your counter and so on. These are tips not the gospel. Good luck I hope some of this helps.
After reading all pages, I suggest that the humans topic should be split into CoCo (several color combinations) and non-CoCo (mostly RW)
Personally, im using a boros brew that takes advantage of several cards in Ammonkhet. And its good to have choices, while CoCo relies on beat down to win, mine can both beat down and burn. That flexibility is worth exploring more IMHO
The main difference is that I choosed to replace PtE with more burn, which thanks to Soul-Scar Mage's influence allows my humans to take down fatties in combat (if they appear) or just aim it to my opponent's face for faster games.
I also primarily run Boros.....I run PtE as a must because of some fo the big threats that we need moved that Burn spells cant help. I run Burn as my primarily for a long time and over on the Burn forum PtE has become a must at least in side because 3 damage just isnt enough then factor in possible cards that bring creatures back fast or card like Kitchen Finks that can combo off into infinite life or delay us enough for them to do other stuff. I understand your reasoning for running Burn stuff over PtE and from my experience running many different Zoo variants PtE has been more handy in the long run. That said if your finding the Burn cards more helpful more power to ya.
All in all I really like you deck. As for splitting the discussion, the Company build has been the most talked about/uesd on here but other veraitions like mine have trickled in and out. I mentioned in another post the awesome versatility Human builds can be from 5 color to 1 color from quick/speed zoo to midrange or even a DnT/Control/denial type build. Options are a plenty. Whenever people popped into here with different builds I enjoy hearing their experiences and reasoning as also others do too. There is now specific 75 you have to use. We can all help each other, get different ideas and see whats work/no worked.
Also have y'all run into Bontu's Last Reckoning. I havent seen it yet in Modern but a buddy asked about it since I run a creature heavy aggro Humans deck but I have seen it yet. So any y'all have experiences/info I can pass on.
Thanks
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Its probably too early to tell but I think since Freebooter hits Planeswalkers, Artifacts and Enchantments also it can has a chance to be better then Sin Collector in some cases. And yeah Collector takes out the card more permanently.
I agree here. Id also say Mirran Crusader is a must somewhere in your 75, doesnt have to be main but this thing is really good when it lands/sticks.
Ambusher would seem really good against other fast Zoo decks possibly even Burn when they (I) drop Swiftspear/Guide. I may have to test that out in a Naya build.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14126&writer=Seth Manfield&articledate=8-25-2017
"It's nice to see a Collected Company deck that isn't trying to assemble some sort of combo, and just aims to maximize its synergy through having creatures that are the same type."
With or with Noble or Avacyn's we're gonna be soft to Blood Moon luckily only a few decks main deck it and side it in my meta. Heck I sometimes run Moon so we'll see. Yes it can get land destroyed and most the time now its Cavern that gets blown up so we'll at least have another option.
As for concessions in builds it maybe early so Im gonna proxy and play test, you maybe right about that.
Take less shock damage, check
Open up more colors, check
Expensive, I hope not but Im guessing $10 each maybe up to $20.
Effort has helped me vs ETron, Shadow and Knightfall. And Atarka's gives much more punch to a faster version. Still comparing whether the Boros or Naya version is a better option for me. Now I know we dont have generally a lot of slots for non creature cards in the main outside Path and Company for those in the CoCo version.
1. Will 5 color be too difficult for me/have me run into too many issues of I needed that land but wasnt able to get it or it got taken out.
2. Would packing in too much stuff/colors dilute and make your deck too situation ally dependent/consistent enough.
3. Make sure you look into the advantages/disadvantages/challenges different colors can bring to Humans. Is it worth it long run.
4. Will 2 colors not have enough answers and limit you in your meta or in a blind meta.
5. Blood Moon or Magus can be your friend or a brutal annoyance.
6. Will having 5 color cost too much or worth the cost of mana base.
7. Just because 2/3/4/5 color works for one dosent mean it will work for you cause of variables like meta, play style, skill level, etc.
There are many good posts on here on the benefits of each color and why 1 players prefers 2/3/4/5. And this thread is still new and doesnt have 100's of pages to scroll through.
At this time Im still running Boros/Human Blitz version however it ha sits limitations and strengths that so far is worth it. Im experimenting with either a Naya or American build. Black has some good stuff but its not as good for me is Path > Push yet the hand disruption helps against combo. Ah the choices we make
1. Burn wins with redundancy and consistent damage however whats even more key is the timing. Example, if you bring in Feed the Clan beware most people dont have more then 2 to 3 life gain Instants yet Burn runs 4 to 8 Skullcrack/Atarka's so timing when you gain that life is key cause lots of times Burn is waiting for it. 2 to 3 vs 4 to 8, odds favor Burn.
2. Skullcrack and Path has helped neutralize some what Kor and Auriok and can do to Burn.
3. Leyline is a good card when you can get it turn 0 to slow Burn a few turns but good luck if you have to hard cast it as Burn generally sides in Artifact/Enchantment answers.
4. Burn preys on decks like Humans cause it has a bunch of 2 for 1 cards that give it advantage like Searing Blaze and/or Searing Blood creature kill face damage, Smash to Smithereens/Destructive Revelry knock out a hate card and do damage, Skullcrack/Atarka's stop life gain and damage to face.
5. Multi color decks that take 4-6 damage the first 2 turns really help Burn. Heck 1 guy who knew I was playing Burn and still did 9 damage for me.......I know fetching basics isnt always an option but cards like Inspiring Vantage do help.
So how to beat Burn using the Human shell....
Option 1 out race using a midrange or 22-24 land build, not likely.
Option 2 side in life gain or anti Burn stuff, possible but got to time it right and heck just draw that card, 2 or 3 out of 60 when you need it, rough.
Option 3 accept the loss and just fold, no way Im a fighter
Consider your meta and how much you see Burn, is it worth it to waste spots on an already tough match cause ya cant side for everything.
When I run Humans and have to deal with Burn, game 1 if Burn goes first its almost always a loss unless they mana flood or just have 1 land until I own the board and attack quick. I run a 20 land speed/blitz style Humans and if I go first the match up isnt as bad as I can sometimes out race. In games 2 and 3 since I run 4 Leylines for Grixis and a few other decks I use them here but if I dont get it turn 0 it wont do much.
Now each situation is different and this is some general info/tips but not hard fast rules for those that run a midrange/22-24 land build.
1. Lets say Burn goes first and drops turn 2 Eidolon taping them out then on your turn 2 you drop land if you have Feed the Clan or Hereos' Reunion use it even if its an Instant and on your turn. That extra life can buy you and extra turn or 2 will help you stabilize the board and possibly get that 4 or 5 land out to do something big like your creatures are now out of Bolt range and you can over run Burn. Watch for Deflecting Palm if your in game 2 or
3. If in game 2 or 3 you and wanna cast lifegain and you see 2 or 3 open mana good chance you could be baited into Skullcrack. There are times its better to cast it their turn after their tapped out or in response to something that taps them out.
2. Burn has trouble with the redundancy of Merfolk and all those Lords pumping creatures out of Bolt range and the ability to lock out their White or Green mana source slowing down Burn since at least 1/3 of the deck needs that 2nd color land. How does this apply to Humans, Land destruction lands and stabilizing the board.
3. The majority of Burn players do not run sweepers like Anger, Flamebreak, Volcanic Fallout at this time but has done so in the past and will again in the future if needed. Other decks that are quick like Elves, Affinity, Speed Zoo can give Burn issues. What can a slower deck take from that, Burn is more worried about Tron, Shadow and big creatures so Path can help them there and Palm can be a game ender. Try to focus more on equal pumping with Thalia's to whatevers on the board rather then having Thalia get big and attacking with 1 big creature that can be hit with Palm.
Now please dont pull the "well if you do this I can do that" stuff cause we can go on all day with you counter my move then I counter your counter and so on. These are tips not the gospel. Good luck I hope some of this helps.
I also primarily run Boros.....I run PtE as a must because of some fo the big threats that we need moved that Burn spells cant help. I run Burn as my primarily for a long time and over on the Burn forum PtE has become a must at least in side because 3 damage just isnt enough then factor in possible cards that bring creatures back fast or card like Kitchen Finks that can combo off into infinite life or delay us enough for them to do other stuff. I understand your reasoning for running Burn stuff over PtE and from my experience running many different Zoo variants PtE has been more handy in the long run. That said if your finding the Burn cards more helpful more power to ya.
All in all I really like you deck. As for splitting the discussion, the Company build has been the most talked about/uesd on here but other veraitions like mine have trickled in and out. I mentioned in another post the awesome versatility Human builds can be from 5 color to 1 color from quick/speed zoo to midrange or even a DnT/Control/denial type build. Options are a plenty. Whenever people popped into here with different builds I enjoy hearing their experiences and reasoning as also others do too. There is now specific 75 you have to use. We can all help each other, get different ideas and see whats work/no worked.
Thanks