If there's a lot of company combo going around where you play, it might be wise to pack a Gut Shot or two again. Takes care of their combo pieces, and is also good against affinity, elves, and a couple of other decks.
Gut Shot (or any removal, for that matter) doesn't stop Druid+Vizier. They tap Druid for mana, then use the ability to untap it. While that is on the stack, you try to cast removal. They respond by activating the untap ability again and gain infinite mana.
Removal does stop Anafenza combo, but that is only half of the deck.
I had a chance to play against one of my most competitive Magic playing friends; he lives two hours away, so I don't get a chance to play against him all too often, but he ran me through his gauntlet of high tier decks last night. I played five different decks tonight (Abzan Coco, non-Coco Abzan, Burn, U/W Control, U/B Faeries), doing more than well against all of them (with the exception of mulling to 5 against U/B Faeries and not drawing lands for 6 turns, then having my opponent pop a Rain of Tears on my only two lands) except for Abzan Coco, which I want to call to attention now.
He proxied in Vizier of Remedies as an alternate Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, and having that in the deck only made it consistent in going infinite turn 3 or 4; all his games looked like turn 1 Bird/Hierarch, turn 2 Anafenza/Vizier and Viscera Seer, turn 3 Kitchen Finks and sacrificing for infinite life while stacking his deck via infinite scry or Devoted Druid, turn 4 oops. I couldn't find an answer for the deck, but when my other friend piloted my deck to try and beat it, he managed to scrape out a W despite infinite life with three Endbringers pinging literally everything that touches the battlefield, and with a turn 12 Newlamog that eventually milled him to death.
I know that the deck is getting popular and is seeing a lot of brewing due to the new Vizier, but if it ends up building traction to the point that a consistent, established decklist is put together and it starts to make strides at locals and MTGO comp leagues, I might run two Ulamogs as an alternate win con to counter infinite life, or I might play a whole other deck altogether that can outrace a turn 3-4 infinite.
Shell of the Abzan Coco deck, as far as I saw from my friend:
So let me know what you think of this match up: our game 1 options, our sideboard options, and how we fare as a whole. Thanks!
Abzan CoCo is a consistent goldfish deck. We don't interact with their hand or board all THAT much the first few turns of the game. A few maindeck options to deal with them:
Dismember
Ratchet Bomb
Relic of Progenitus
If they do get infinite life, you can still win with Karn or Ulamog. I prefer Karn since they can just Path Ulamog. I think the key is just not dying to infinite-sized creatures. All Is Dust and Ugin can keep the board clear. Endbringer and Ballista do the same. Then you drop a Karn once you have stabilized. Start eating their hand. Once that's empty, feel free to work on their lands. At this point, you can take all the time in the world to ultimate and restart the game with multiple lands in play. Heck, Karn could even exile your own Ugin so you start the game with him in play.
What are your thoughts on the land [Geier Reach Sanitarium]in this deck? As a 1 of. It works kind of like Desolate Lighthouse that a lot of UR control decks use, but costs less to use. Only down side is your opponent uses it too, but this deck has better top decks than most other decks.
This card was discussed a few days ago on page 30. Overall, it's just a bad Sea Gate Wreckage.
3 All Is Dust, 1 Karn, 1 Ugin to answer Stony. Yes, they are expensive, but we often ramp with Reshaper. Map can sometimes find Temple before Stony comes down. Sometimes we luck into natural Tron. Sometimes we win THROUGH Stony since TKS, Smasher, and Endbringer are all tough to stop.
Overall, I have never had too much issue dealing with Stony. It seems like opponents will keep otherwise weaker hands, thinking Stony will destroy our deck, which just isn't true.
I also side out 1 Mind Stone and bring in a 25 land.
I can see Burn running it as a +2 in their SB. Siding out 2 Eidolons and 2 of these in gives them a little more kick vs. our deck. We stay Tier 1 and it will be out there.
If Burn wants to punish us for playing Artifacts, why not just bring in Destructive Revelry? And if they REALLY want to punish us more, bring in Smash to Smithereens... Artifact mode is the only relevant one against us since none of our early-game lands have abilities and the only creatures that do are Endbringer (bad against Burn anyway) and Ballista (same).
I don't imagine this card will see much play outside of RW Humans. It doesn't fit into Burn. There are no other decks it can go into unless something new gets created. And we already have maindeck Dismember. This card doesn't worry me Yes, if it comes out and we CAN'T answer it, then it could hurt. But I don't see that happening too often.
Anyone ever think of Geier Reach Sanitarium in place of Sea Gate Wreckage?
It's still a card draw engine but taps for 2CMC instead of 3CMC and you can use it any time vs only when your hand is empty.
I've still got Sanctum of Ugin in my list but it's useless since nothing costs over 7 anymore so I don't need it's ability. I'm thinking I'll put Geier Reach Sanitarium in it's place.
I am in LOVE with Wreckage. Especially if you get Tron online, you can easily empty your hand and have excess mana. 2-mana for Sanitarium vs. 3 for Wreckage seems irrelevant. And you rarely will be wanting to spend your turn using either card if you have other things in hand to play instead. I just can't imagine when you would want to be looting with Sanitarium instead of drawing with Wreckage. Not even mentioning the fact that Sanitarium also lets your opponent loot... One nice thing about our deck is that it blanks a lot of the opponent's cards like damage-based removal. Letting them turn that Lightning Bolt into a Fatal Push isn't good...
Ambulance, nice job to your son! Looking back over my last 6 Leagues Online, I found that the cards that won me games were:
Endbringer
Ballista (normally without Collar, obviously better if you get both)
Ugin / All is Dust - wipe their board
TKS was always key no matter the opponent
Honestly, get few of my games come down to Smasher being incredibly relevant. I'm considering removing 1-2 for Batterskull. They fill the same spot on the curve without Temple, both race incredibly well, both are great against midrange decks. Batterskull can just be insane sometimes while trying to play a defensive game whereas Smasher does nothing to help stabilize.
Problem with Phyrexian Revoker is that we can't name lands (nexus, manland, etc).
It's not a perfect card, and not a Pithing Needle. However, it might be good enough to maindeck and might be good enough to help swing some of the really bad matchups (Tron and Ad Nauseaum, in particular). Against Affinity, it can't name Nexus, but it can name Cranial Plating or Ravager. Against midrange decks with manlands, you don't really care anyway because we crush those decks. Against Infect, it would be sided out, but game 1 it could name Noble Hierarch or Spellskite and maybe get some value.
[quote from="Heenock »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-1-modern/769015-colorless-eldrazi-tron?comment=654"]
I feel like this deck has lost a step in the online meta over the past few weeks. I'm consistently seeing more bad matchups than good. The ubiquity of Death's Shadow is a big part of that. I'm still having success overall and I like the deck a lot, but TBH if I had 800 tix lying around I would probably just switch to Shadow in an effort to win more consistently.
What's your list? I'm impressed that you beat Scapeshift! I lose to that every time online...
I love my sideboard for the Shadow matchup:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Eternal Scourge
2nd Ugin
2nd All Is Dust
Relic stops Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster, Tasigur (sort of), Traverse. Scourge combos with Relic and provides and endless supply of threats or chump-blockers. I remove Ballista, Collar, Dismember.
I agree that I would switch to Shadow if I had a million tix, but I don't...
I think I'm going to test some maindeck Phyrexian Revoker. It's Pithing on a 2/1 body. I want to take a page out of Legacy MUD-type decks. Try to add a little more disruption in our colorless deck. Game 1 it is instant-win against Ad Nauseam. It has game against Ravager or Cranial. It's good against Tron, naming Karn or O-Stone. It doesn't improve the Scapeshift matchup other than possibly naming Expedition or STE. Against Expertise, it's not the worst thing ever to name Griselbrand. Against Bant Eldrazi, you can name Displacer. Overall, I think it could really improve some bad matchups!
Thanks for sharing. That second Cavern vs. your meta seems a good call.
A second All is Dust could come in handy in place of Karn. Alternatively, have you considered dropping a copy of Batterskull or Reshaper to fit in another All is Dust? Although I've never been a big fan of Mind Stone, I'm on the cusp of dropping my ramp package. If I do, like you, I will run 4 Mind Stone main and move 4 Chalice to the SB. How often are you casting Mind Stone turn 2 or 3? Have you pulled off a turn 3 Ugin off Tron? Thanks in advance.
I just pulled off turn 3 Ugin in an Online League, against Ad Nauseam I then followed with turn 4 Smasher + 3/3 Ballista. He conceded!
My preliminary observations thus far are that Spellskite doesn't seem to do much (but I'm not sure what to replace it with), and that I may have too many Relics. Any suggestions would be helpful.
Your list is almost 100% "stock". Everyone has their own opinions about some of the maindeck and sideboard card, such as:
Mind Stone - some don't like it but I love it
Basilisk Collar - should it be maindeck?
Endbringer - most people run 3, not 4
Dismember - most people run 3, not 2
Batterskull - many people run 1 maindeck
As for the sideboard, it's all dependent on what decks you need help with. I tailor my sideboard to ignore Tron and focus on the midrange decks, with 4 Relic and 3 Eternal Scourge. If you don't like Spellskite (and I don't), then remove it. 2 more Dismember would be good to help against Eldrazi Tron, the mirror, Merfolk, etc. Or something against Burn. Or something like more Ratchet Bombs. There are a million ways to customize the sideboard to your own style.
Gwathnar, I find it very useful to record detailed notes from my Magic Online games. It helps me see trends both in metagame and also gameplay. It is obviously much harder in person, but if you could right down some notes between rounds, I think you would find that useful!
yianni78, thanks for the detailed explanation. Your list of aggressive, strategic, and defensive GQ use us a good summary. It pretty well lines up with my line of thinking. Tron is the only deck where you need to be aggressively using GQ (other than Bant Eldrazi which I actually have yet to play against Online so I don't know how that plays out). With this in mind, my choice of 3 Wreckage, 2 GQ is perfect for focusing on winning all the midrange matchups and giving up percentage against Tron. So far, in 21 League matches, I have played against 5 midrange decks and 1 Tron, so I think my pick works for me
Also, I wanted to mention that I side Radiant Fountain against Burn. It gains the same 2 life as Familiar without having to invest 3 mana into a small body. I can still play turn 3 TKS and gain some incremental life for free I also side them in against decks where I don't need GQs or Wastes. The small amount of life may not matter against Death's Shadow Jund, but it may be what saves me. And it's not like I need Wastes against them anyway.
Gwathnar, here are some of the ways I have used it:
turn 2 - 1/1 to kill mana creature or Bob
turn 3 - after completing Tron, make it a 3/3 or 2/2 + Collar play+equip and clear their board
mid-game - use it to kill Liliana + Nahiri (both on 1) and still survive
mid-late game - sink all your mana into it and have a creature on the table that they have to answer or you win. From here, you can just pass the turn if you need to, dump your mana to make it bigger on their end step, until it is big enough that you can attack through whatever they have on board.
Honestly, most of the time I don't get it with Collar for the machine gun. I have even considered dropping Collar altogether, but every time I DO get them together, I just win the game! Including one poor Elves player. On the play, I have turn 2 Mind Stone + Collar, then turn 3 I draw natural Tron and play a 3/3 Ballista + equip. I kill his Llanowar and Archruid and he concedes after only playing 2 turns
Ballista is great because it's so flexible. Don't be afraid to play it turn 2 if you need to remove something, or if you are playing against someone that will give you lots of x/1 targets. Then remember that you can also ATTACK with it. Your 6/6 Ballista is not just for pinging. You can also do some serious damage.
I'm curious if people ever side out Ballista. I remove it against Death's Shadow because I figure it doesn't do much there. They have nothing I can kill with it unless I also have Collar. It's unlikely both will survive against maindeck artifact removal and Fatal Push. And it's a big mana investment to lose to a 1-mana removal spell while also growing their Shadows if I ping them.
You aren't answering my question. When exactly are you holding up Mana to do all the early game GQ plays? Do you not cast turn 3 TKS or pop Map turn 2 but instead look to use GQ? If your opponent plays turn 1 Mine, Map on the play, turn 2 Tower, do you GQ on your turn 2? Even if you keep them off Tron, you go into turn 3 with them having 3 Mana to your 2, so they will have the advantage in Mana and tempo if they play anything.
Similarly, against Affinity, do you okay turn 4 Smasher, or keep up Mana for GQ?
Your situations are all great in theory, but how EXACTLY do these play out, especially early game? If we are talking late game then you can make the same argument that "you run 4 Map so you essentially have 6 GQs anyway". I disagree with that logic anyway bc I typically spend my first 1-2 Maps developing my own Mana instead of trying to GQ theirs. Maybe I'm playing it wrong!
Also, how do you handle losing a land early game? Even with Temple, we only have 8 creatures we can play off 3 lands (not counting Ballista bc he is often outclassed if you play him as 1/1). If you GQ, I feel like you are setting yourself back much more than your opponent who likely has a ton more cards they can play with 1-2 lands whereas ours all require 3+.
3 sea gate seems like it might be overkill- the fact that you can just search for it with a map when you need it probably means you don't need to have this many slots dedicated too it- I can definitely see 2 being a good call in grindy metagames, though. G
GQ has a lot more utility than you might expect- there are some matchups that it's dead, but there are also a lot of nifty things you can do with it that you might not know about. A perfect example of this is when somebody casts a spreading seas on your land- you can ghost quarter your own land in response to prevent them drawing a card and fetch a wastes from your deck- this denies them 2 mana and a card for your ghost quarter, a trade that is highly favorable to you. Same thing with blood moon- GQ your own land in response to it to make sure you have a colorless source. In my meta, there are also just a lot of decks I would prefer to have it in against- it's good against merfolk's mutavaults, affinity's nexuses, control's colonnades and creeping tar pits, and it's also good versus death's shadow decks because they're running so few basics. Study the death's shadow lists to memorize their land base- these decks run 12 fetches and not that many actual lands- sometimes you can completely deny them colors if they drew their basics in their opening hands.
Maybe I am using Maps wrong. My first Map or 2 is always finding Temples or completing Tron. I never Map early game for anything other than those, so being able to naturally draw Wreckage is very helpful.
I understand the GQ utility times, but I don't understand WHEN you have the ability to do that. If Merfolk plays turn 1 Vial, do you opt NOT to cast your turn 2 Reshaper in the hopes of catching their Spreading Seas with your GQ? I find that if I am alive past turn 6ish against them, I have likely won the game anyway because Karn, Dust, Ugin, and Ballista will control their board, or Endbringer will draw a ton of cards. I could see the "counter Spreading Seas" play being useful mid-game, around turn 7, but by then I have probably already drawn GQ or used Map to get it.
Same with Blood Moon. Granted, I have not played against a single Blood Moon deck in 21 League matches online, so I'm not overly worried about it. If you were on the play against a Blood Moon deck, would you play turn 3 TKS if you have Wastes, or would you hold back GQ to protect against Blood Moon? Holding back seems way too passive in my opinion.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I cannot understand WHEN to use GQ to really benefit. I feel like I always GQ very late-game, so I don't care about not having them early...
Mid-game, I do love to have GQ available. Keeping 1 mana up can represent Dismember or GQ. You can really pressure their manlands that way. But again, that's a mid-late game play.
I'd love to be convinced about GQ since literally EVERYONE but me is running 4.
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Gut Shot (or any removal, for that matter) doesn't stop Druid+Vizier. They tap Druid for mana, then use the ability to untap it. While that is on the stack, you try to cast removal. They respond by activating the untap ability again and gain infinite mana.
Removal does stop Anafenza combo, but that is only half of the deck.
Abzan CoCo is a consistent goldfish deck. We don't interact with their hand or board all THAT much the first few turns of the game. A few maindeck options to deal with them:
Dismember
Ratchet Bomb
Relic of Progenitus
If they do get infinite life, you can still win with Karn or Ulamog. I prefer Karn since they can just Path Ulamog. I think the key is just not dying to infinite-sized creatures. All Is Dust and Ugin can keep the board clear. Endbringer and Ballista do the same. Then you drop a Karn once you have stabilized. Start eating their hand. Once that's empty, feel free to work on their lands. At this point, you can take all the time in the world to ultimate and restart the game with multiple lands in play. Heck, Karn could even exile your own Ugin so you start the game with him in play.
This card was discussed a few days ago on page 30. Overall, it's just a bad Sea Gate Wreckage.
Overall, I have never had too much issue dealing with Stony. It seems like opponents will keep otherwise weaker hands, thinking Stony will destroy our deck, which just isn't true.
I also side out 1 Mind Stone and bring in a 25 land.
If Burn wants to punish us for playing Artifacts, why not just bring in Destructive Revelry? And if they REALLY want to punish us more, bring in Smash to Smithereens... Artifact mode is the only relevant one against us since none of our early-game lands have abilities and the only creatures that do are Endbringer (bad against Burn anyway) and Ballista (same).
I don't imagine this card will see much play outside of RW Humans. It doesn't fit into Burn. There are no other decks it can go into unless something new gets created. And we already have maindeck Dismember. This card doesn't worry me
I am in LOVE with Wreckage. Especially if you get Tron online, you can easily empty your hand and have excess mana. 2-mana for Sanitarium vs. 3 for Wreckage seems irrelevant. And you rarely will be wanting to spend your turn using either card if you have other things in hand to play instead. I just can't imagine when you would want to be looting with Sanitarium instead of drawing with Wreckage. Not even mentioning the fact that Sanitarium also lets your opponent loot... One nice thing about our deck is that it blanks a lot of the opponent's cards like damage-based removal. Letting them turn that Lightning Bolt into a Fatal Push isn't good...
Endbringer
Ballista (normally without Collar, obviously better if you get both)
Ugin / All is Dust - wipe their board
TKS was always key no matter the opponent
Honestly, get few of my games come down to Smasher being incredibly relevant. I'm considering removing 1-2 for Batterskull. They fill the same spot on the curve without Temple, both race incredibly well, both are great against midrange decks. Batterskull can just be insane sometimes while trying to play a defensive game whereas Smasher does nothing to help stabilize.
Thoughts?
It's not a perfect card, and not a Pithing Needle. However, it might be good enough to maindeck and might be good enough to help swing some of the really bad matchups (Tron and Ad Nauseaum, in particular). Against Affinity, it can't name Nexus, but it can name Cranial Plating or Ravager. Against midrange decks with manlands, you don't really care anyway because we crush those decks. Against Infect, it would be sided out, but game 1 it could name Noble Hierarch or Spellskite and maybe get some value.
What's your list? I'm impressed that you beat Scapeshift! I lose to that every time online...
I love my sideboard for the Shadow matchup:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Eternal Scourge
2nd Ugin
2nd All Is Dust
Relic stops Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster, Tasigur (sort of), Traverse. Scourge combos with Relic and provides and endless supply of threats or chump-blockers. I remove Ballista, Collar, Dismember.
I agree that I would switch to Shadow if I had a million tix, but I don't...
I think I'm going to test some maindeck Phyrexian Revoker. It's Pithing on a 2/1 body. I want to take a page out of Legacy MUD-type decks. Try to add a little more disruption in our colorless deck. Game 1 it is instant-win against Ad Nauseam. It has game against Ravager or Cranial. It's good against Tron, naming Karn or O-Stone. It doesn't improve the Scapeshift matchup other than possibly naming Expedition or STE. Against Expertise, it's not the worst thing ever to name Griselbrand. Against Bant Eldrazi, you can name Displacer. Overall, I think it could really improve some bad matchups!
I just pulled off turn 3 Ugin in an Online League, against Ad Nauseam
Your list is almost 100% "stock". Everyone has their own opinions about some of the maindeck and sideboard card, such as:
Mind Stone - some don't like it but I love it
Basilisk Collar - should it be maindeck?
Endbringer - most people run 3, not 4
Dismember - most people run 3, not 2
Batterskull - many people run 1 maindeck
As for the sideboard, it's all dependent on what decks you need help with. I tailor my sideboard to ignore Tron and focus on the midrange decks, with 4 Relic and 3 Eternal Scourge. If you don't like Spellskite (and I don't), then remove it. 2 more Dismember would be good to help against Eldrazi Tron, the mirror, Merfolk, etc. Or something against Burn. Or something like more Ratchet Bombs. There are a million ways to customize the sideboard to your own style.
yianni78, thanks for the detailed explanation. Your list of aggressive, strategic, and defensive GQ use us a good summary. It pretty well lines up with my line of thinking. Tron is the only deck where you need to be aggressively using GQ (other than Bant Eldrazi which I actually have yet to play against Online so I don't know how that plays out). With this in mind, my choice of 3 Wreckage, 2 GQ is perfect for focusing on winning all the midrange matchups and giving up percentage against Tron. So far, in 21 League matches, I have played against 5 midrange decks and 1 Tron, so I think my pick works for me
Also, I wanted to mention that I side Radiant Fountain against Burn. It gains the same 2 life as Familiar without having to invest 3 mana into a small body. I can still play turn 3 TKS and gain some incremental life for free
Gwathnar, here are some of the ways I have used it:
turn 2 - 1/1 to kill mana creature or Bob
turn 3 - after completing Tron, make it a 3/3 or 2/2 + Collar play+equip and clear their board
mid-game - use it to kill Liliana + Nahiri (both on 1) and still survive
mid-late game - sink all your mana into it and have a creature on the table that they have to answer or you win. From here, you can just pass the turn if you need to, dump your mana to make it bigger on their end step, until it is big enough that you can attack through whatever they have on board.
Honestly, most of the time I don't get it with Collar for the machine gun. I have even considered dropping Collar altogether, but every time I DO get them together, I just win the game! Including one poor Elves player. On the play, I have turn 2 Mind Stone + Collar, then turn 3 I draw natural Tron and play a 3/3 Ballista + equip. I kill his Llanowar and Archruid and he concedes after only playing 2 turns
Ballista is great because it's so flexible. Don't be afraid to play it turn 2 if you need to remove something, or if you are playing against someone that will give you lots of x/1 targets. Then remember that you can also ATTACK with it. Your 6/6 Ballista is not just for pinging. You can also do some serious damage.
I'm curious if people ever side out Ballista. I remove it against Death's Shadow because I figure it doesn't do much there. They have nothing I can kill with it unless I also have Collar. It's unlikely both will survive against maindeck artifact removal and Fatal Push. And it's a big mana investment to lose to a 1-mana removal spell while also growing their Shadows if I ping them.
Similarly, against Affinity, do you okay turn 4 Smasher, or keep up Mana for GQ?
Your situations are all great in theory, but how EXACTLY do these play out, especially early game? If we are talking late game then you can make the same argument that "you run 4 Map so you essentially have 6 GQs anyway". I disagree with that logic anyway bc I typically spend my first 1-2 Maps developing my own Mana instead of trying to GQ theirs. Maybe I'm playing it wrong!
Also, how do you handle losing a land early game? Even with Temple, we only have 8 creatures we can play off 3 lands (not counting Ballista bc he is often outclassed if you play him as 1/1). If you GQ, I feel like you are setting yourself back much more than your opponent who likely has a ton more cards they can play with 1-2 lands whereas ours all require 3+.
Maybe I am using Maps wrong. My first Map or 2 is always finding Temples or completing Tron. I never Map early game for anything other than those, so being able to naturally draw Wreckage is very helpful.
I understand the GQ utility times, but I don't understand WHEN you have the ability to do that. If Merfolk plays turn 1 Vial, do you opt NOT to cast your turn 2 Reshaper in the hopes of catching their Spreading Seas with your GQ? I find that if I am alive past turn 6ish against them, I have likely won the game anyway because Karn, Dust, Ugin, and Ballista will control their board, or Endbringer will draw a ton of cards. I could see the "counter Spreading Seas" play being useful mid-game, around turn 7, but by then I have probably already drawn GQ or used Map to get it.
Same with Blood Moon. Granted, I have not played against a single Blood Moon deck in 21 League matches online, so I'm not overly worried about it. If you were on the play against a Blood Moon deck, would you play turn 3 TKS if you have Wastes, or would you hold back GQ to protect against Blood Moon? Holding back seems way too passive in my opinion.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I cannot understand WHEN to use GQ to really benefit. I feel like I always GQ very late-game, so I don't care about not having them early...
Mid-game, I do love to have GQ available. Keeping 1 mana up can represent Dismember or GQ. You can really pressure their manlands that way. But again, that's a mid-late game play.
I'd love to be convinced about GQ since literally EVERYONE but me is running 4.