Wow. If we are debating whether or not people who want "genocide, forced sterilization" should be called racist, then the thread is over. Nobody is contesting that. Nobody suggested that, without a lot of word twisting, debate traps and paragraph manipulation. That's a gross inflation using extremes degenerate to useful discussion. Inside the US, I don't see anyone "dealing" with that, unless your incapable of ignoring a fraction of a fraction of the population that most people write off as crazy. Maybe if you were fighting ISIS, or lived in the Congo...
He is debating his interpretation of Mad Mats argument, and what he feels the underlying argument is really about.
Personally I thought the focus was about everyday racism and a polarized society. To Tiax's point, carrying a polite and pleasant demeanor, but still holding reservations. And then, whether or not you should call people out for there reservations.
Statements keep getting made that seem like extremes. There's no real point in debating extremes. I would argue that everyday racism affects peoples lives more than extremists. IE, not hiring someone because of their race, not subletting to another race, not wanting to live across from other races, or not leaving a tip because of someones race. You're not debating about whether or not a neo-nazi should be called out for being racist. That would be unproductive.
Then it seems to me the discussion you should be participating in is why there is correlation between race and income levels instead of race and crime.
I'm not sure if quantity is a weighing factor. It affects national averages, but moot towards whether or not you're safe in a particular area, of whether or not racism plays into how safe you feel.
Low income white neighborhoods in CLE, surrounding suburbs don't see a lot of gun activity. Most are not traffickers; they're users. Heroin, prostitution, petty theft, the occasional domestic violence call. Nothing you need a vest for, despite open carry laws and ccw. Do consider though, I'm also white, and I'm sure that plays a factor in the ability to move around freely and safely in those environments. I can't speak for experience for other races and whether or not they would be safe in those areas, but having experienced it in reverse I can only assume its the same
I assume that its the same or similar, because I've experienced first hand what it is to be a white boy in the wrong place at the wrong time. I've been surrounded before, asked to leave establishments because I was white, ejected from another despite being there with black friends, threatened, harassed while parked at intersections for being in the wrong neighborhood and more. At that time, at that age I did not know better, I didn't know the area as well; I was ignorant. On some occasions, we were simply lost coming back from an event on the west side, as we don't know it well enough
Ironically, one of my friends (note that being black is relevant) made this same mistake, when he settled into a hillbilly biker bar packed with Harley's outside.... And when the police responded, everyone in the bar blamed him, even the bartender. I said the same thing. What were you thinking man? If you wanna find a white racist, then a dive biker bar full of old ass harley riders with long hair, tats, leather vests and club patches is the first place you'd look. Jesus dude
Wrong as it may be either way, its real. Ignoring it, pretending otherwise as to not seem racist could cause you serious harm. We make the best decisions we can every day, using what we've learned and know.
You seem to be implying that race is not actually an indicator of whether you should feel afraid. That the local housing market (or more generally, income levels) is a better indicator of probability of crime. Is that accurate?
It is very accurate. Poverty and crime are directly related. That's not to say every poor neighborhood is bad. You can also be murdered in an upscale neighborhood. But one is rarely present without the other.
You'd be a damn fool to ignore all of your previous experiences, ignore all surrounding circumstances and make terrible decisions for the sake of "not coming across as racist"
Our kid is on a traveling baseball team. We've been to nearly every park in a 50 mile radius. One park in particular is in a largely black township. The first thing that struck me was all the warning signs about protecting or hiding your property. When you park it becomes obvious why: groups of youths in the parking lot checking for unlocked cars (doing nuffin.)
Now under some peoples thinking, the fact that your in a black neighborhood is irrelevant. You could be in any park, with any race of youths in the lot checking for unlocked cars. But experience tells you, you've been to the other 40 parks many times over many years and you know there is a direct correlation here. We as the better part of society simply don't say or imply anything out loud because "That's racist". But if you think your car and your belongings are safe, you'd be an idiot.
My wife and I own rental property in a diverse group of neighborhoods. Housing is a topic that gets a lot of attention in the race debate. In accordance with the law, we'd never turn down an application based on race. But its a very fair statement we have experience with different ethnics in different neighborhoods on this topic. I'll talk about low income housing since that is where the largest disparities can be seen. In black neighborhoods its constant break-ins, violent crimes related to drug trafficking and a constant police presence. In white neighborhoods they take their disability money, sell their prescriptions and solicit themselves to buy heroin from blacks who traffic it. Hispanics somehow live in a quiet, peaceful neighborhood with a strong sense of community.
In regarding to soliciting (often for heroin) black people rob those who respond or show up. Show up at the girls house, and a black man jumps out of the bathroom and robs you at gunpoint. Now again you could say that ANY race is capable of doing this. That's hypothetically true. But do other races do it? No. Then notice more than half of the ads literally say "No black men", "NO AA" or "No black men under 30" Are the girls racist, or have they learned through experience that they get robbed, they get their ass beat, they get pimped?
Now make choices about where you want to buy properties, and what subsets of behavior are you willing to deal with. Are you ready to spend $7K or more to repair a damaged property like I have? Risk having a property condemned because it was used as a meth lab? (note: labs are more common among whites) Tenants move out because of heavy police presence and break ins? If you had collective information would you ignore it completely for the sake of not seeming 'racist' ?
According to city data, the town we live in is 95.6% white alone. The black people we do have, carry some very unlikable behavior. For example, they will walk out in front of your car at Walmart, hoping you'll hit them so they can sue. This is factual. You need to be aware of it when you shop there. They also jay walk across 5 lane roads. You need to have some sense of "racism" or you might hit someone. Everyone simply tolerates it, because nobody wants to "be racist".
I think what Mad Mat is saying, is that we can't toss collected experience and knowledge out the window because we might be seen as racist. And in some cases, doing so is downright stupid. I mean, its nice to live in the Ivory tower, looking down and proclaiming "All of humanity should live like this, never making negative assumptions or judging each other." Its easy to post from a nice college campus how things should "theoretically" be in the world outside. But this is the real world. The one we actually live in. Go live it - get your hands dirty. Go see. Looking at numbers and percentages online doesn't teach you anything about how it is
I hold the door for absolutely anyone. I'm polite in person - to everyone. But I'd never park a Lexus on MLK overnight. I can attest from personal experience that if you are white, you're not welcome on MLK to begin with. I'd never buy property on Fulton & Clark. And damn straight I'm on the lookout at Walmart.
What I won't agree with, is any statement that you shouldn't feel safe if a muslim or black person moved in across the street. If you ALREADY live in a nice neighborhood, the reason they move in is to ALSO live in a nice neighborhood just like you. Neighborhoods can go down hill and they often do as they age. But there's just as many low income white neighborhoods. And if your neighborhood begins to slide, you have the freedom to move out.