I wouldn't worry about the setup being easy to deduce, it's always an issue in Bascis. It helped that you talk about them because it means we know you actually know how to design simple setups, but it's not a huge stretch from "scum only have a Rolecop, that means the town don't have stuff we'd want to block" -> Masons, Bulletproof, Bodyguard. Similarly, once the Masons have been revealed, there only other role(s) are going to be weak protective (i.e. no Doc), or like a 1-shot vig.
The fact that we could work it out meant it was a good setup. If you get surprised by a Basic, it's probably not balanced.
GG, Iso you did play really well. As Newcomb said, you just need to spend more time explaining why your narrative is more likely correct than other possibilities.
I have to say, my scumbuddies totally dropped the ball. I put an awful lot of effort into getting out of the D1 lynch, and they just let themselves sink to the bottom of PoE in the meantime. I got caught in my first post and they still got lynched before me!
@Eco: Who did you specifically want to discuss with me?
It's more about what you want to discuss. If you're feeling open to having your mind changed, we could look at your keys points against me and I can attempt to rebut them. Instead of just talking past each other, which is what we've done so far.
Nobody seems interested in reviewing Voxx aside from me, so I'll pick up that mantle.
Of note I'm intrigued by Eco's analysis of Nacho and Tom. Nacho because it makes me feel like Nacho is town, and Tom because I really shouldn't be AtE'd by a spider.
All the other reads including my own are obvious. I've moved to the background because I felt like we were playing "Iso is always right" instead of mafia.
Hey Iso, if you don't think your mind can be changed then fine, there's no point wasting our time, but if you're genuinely interested in a dialogue, I'll have one with you. We've only really talked at each other previously. You're right that you have discussed "what if Eco is Town?" before, and I get that you're not interested in re-evaluating before you have to because you've earned that confidence. What I wanted to see was your working: not just names, but why those people and why scum Eco makes more sense than them.
OK. I reread the game, trying to look at interactions with Cyan/GJ to evaluate who could be the third and final scum.
Chris is mason. Confirmed town is confirmed.
Vaimes: GJ and Cyan both tried to push Vaimes, actively and early.While I think that if Vaimes was the third, he'd rate his scum game below the others and volunteer be the victim for a "2 scum bus the third hard for town cred" strategy if that was the plan, it should have been dropped as Vaimes became more widely town read. Instead Cyan and GJ just got agitated that their obv scum read wasn't getting run up, which isn't the reaction you'd get from a deliberate bus. In any case, GJ and Cyan were so disengaged I don't think they'd have planned such a coherent strategy pregame anyway. I also noted that Vaimes response in #121 just wasn't tacit understanding of a bus at all. So combined with the fact that I already had an independent Town read on Vaimes, I don't think there's any way he could actually be the last.
Iso: I basically said this at the start of the Day, but Iso is only scum if he deliberately decided to put together a team including his other 2 buddies 100 posts into D1. The goal would then be to lynch Eco, see the Town flip, go "oh no mah read r wrong" and then still claim credit if his buddies ever did flip. While I wouldn't put that completely outside Iso's scum range, he was way too happy to vote Cyan/GJ instead - particularly on D2 - which obviously ruins the gambit. If (/when) I do die, you need to watch Iso very carefully: if he just peaces out then maybe it really was the long con, but I really think he'd have either made sure I was lynched sooner, or tried to back out of the gambit.
Nacho: There's not of interaction with Cyan/GJ. That's kind of understandable because there was a pretty long period where there wasn't anyone in the slot. Worth noting is that GJ frequently listed Mal as a third scum on D1 (#130, #250 for example), basically just calling out lurking. GJ is unlikely to do that to a buddy when it would be so easy to say "he's just absent, null read": it reads a lot like he's keeping hooks in a soft target, not distancing. Then in #789, GJ magically calls Nacho's slot town immediately after Nacho voted Cyan. That's textbook appeasement there, not buddy play. I also think that come #1138 Nacho is really unlikely to put Cyan right at the bottom of his scum list. It would take a lot of balls to come right into D2 and sent your only remaining buddy up the river, and while I don't really know how that might fit into Nacho's wheelhouse, I don't think he's deep enough in the Town circle to risk getting away with that. The better plan would probably have been "lynch Eco, make Cyan post more".
Voxx: I've been over this before, right. I see Voxx very reluctantly narrowing down his PoE to Cyan and GJ in #429. He calls out Cyan in #481, but doesn't vote and just waffles on his position, actually calling him Townish in
#505. Is suspicious of Iso in #476 for being too confident. The problem? Reading back again, if Voxx really is scum then I *think* he'd have gone at his buddies way harder. Once he's realised that he's painted himself into a corner by PoEing down to only his buddies, I think that scum Voxx says "so be it" and throws them totally under the bus to maximise town credit. That's almost what he did, but less emphatically and with different timing than I imagine scum Voxx doing. I don't think I could bring myself to actually trust Voxx, but he's fallen off my top spot.
Tom: Tom's spent a lot of time on my "eh" list, since I wasn't particularly excited about parsing the spider talk. But there was actually a lot of interesting stuff. Like in #504 he votes Voxx immediately after Voxx votes GJ. Or in #850 Tom has no read on Cyan: basically the only person without one. In #951 Tom is really keen to sow doubt to Iso around GJ's reaction to my wagon, and he especially singles out the idea that scum GJ wouldn't know how to handle a Town Eco wagon. #984, Tom immediately accepts the Doc claim. While that was before any counterclaims, the raw Doc claim shouldn't have been above scepticism (Doc+masons is already strong, no flavour was provided),a and he was still cool with it in #998. #1031, Tom is keen to remind us that Iso/Chris/Az was a valid scum team, just to keep the idea floating around. And since we're speculating on NKs, but since people already are, recall that Az was the main crusader in wanting Tom dead. Coming into toDay, Tom has this hipster Town read on me, but he's not actually doing anything about it other than not hammering me (which - despite Iso's assertions - would look super scummy) which is almost exactly what he did in the recently finished Bare Bones where he defended Mindreaver but didn't do anything to actively prevent his lynch.
Seppel: On the surface, Seppel looks pretty obvious. He's floated through the game, without really contributing much, and his more recent posts look very much like someone who has just given up. Other tidbits like in #215 he said "Voxx seems smellier than Eco" followed by a vote on...Eco, which is gross. #942 looks very solidly like a last ditch attempt to derail the GJ wagon with a vote on Iso.
Also troubling is that both Voxx and Tom are up for lynching Seppel. Seppel being scum would be nice and easy, but it's definitely a red flag when BOTH of my other two possibles want someone dead.
Here's my current problem. You're quick to yell at Iso and tell him that he needs to reevaluate a bunch and put in the legwork to show that he's not tunneling like a madman, and yet your contributions for today are attacking Seppel for saying really silly things (Seppel says really silly things, everyone knows it which is why you're not getting any traction on it) and saying that Seppel is the last scum and demoralized.
I don't think that's evaluating the game in full, and that's certainly not how I'd be behaving in your position as town; you are the person with the most motivation to shake up the gamestate right now, and the only thing that you can give me is "Seppel is scum for saying something silly and also he seems deflated"?
Yeah alright, that's a fair criticism. I haven't put the time in because it just feels like the game is going to shrug and mislynch me anyway. I guess it's also easy to see Iso being pretty happy about that state of affairs. I just find it very frustrating talking to Iso since I feel he should be trying to think about my posts instead of just stubbornly holding out.
But ok, I'm still here, and I haven't been mislynched yet. Which means I owe it to the town to at least try instead of do nothing out of spite. It's late here. I'm going to sleep on it, and assemble something tomorrow.
Oh and claiming: I'm Argent Squire. I like Burritos. I'm vanilla town. I tried to hint at being power on D1 because I figured if I could get through the Day, scum might waste a kill on me, which would have been pretty great. Then someone thought that outing the masons would be a good idea, which rendered my attempt somewhat moot.
The fact that we could work it out meant it was a good setup. If you get surprised by a Basic, it's probably not balanced.
I have to say, my scumbuddies totally dropped the ball. I put an awful lot of effort into getting out of the D1 lynch, and they just let themselves sink to the bottom of PoE in the meantime. I got caught in my first post and they still got lynched before me!
Chris you were supposed to white knight me
Could you summarise them or point me at the last time you did?
I guess I'm looking forward to your turn then.
Dude, if you actually believed that, you'd have voted me.
It's more about what you want to discuss. If you're feeling open to having your mind changed, we could look at your keys points against me and I can attempt to rebut them. Instead of just talking past each other, which is what we've done so far.
Have I not reviewed Voxx enough for you?
"are games this easy?
is eco scum?"
While also voting Seppel because he "wants you to".
If you genuinely think I'm town, then try and stop my lynch and actually try and find the last scum.
So why do you think I'm town?
If you were pocketing me, you'd be defending. All you're doing is Townreading me for easy points.
Chris is mason. Confirmed town is confirmed.
Vaimes: GJ and Cyan both tried to push Vaimes, actively and early.While I think that if Vaimes was the third, he'd rate his scum game below the others and volunteer be the victim for a "2 scum bus the third hard for town cred" strategy if that was the plan, it should have been dropped as Vaimes became more widely town read. Instead Cyan and GJ just got agitated that their obv scum read wasn't getting run up, which isn't the reaction you'd get from a deliberate bus. In any case, GJ and Cyan were so disengaged I don't think they'd have planned such a coherent strategy pregame anyway. I also noted that Vaimes response in #121 just wasn't tacit understanding of a bus at all. So combined with the fact that I already had an independent Town read on Vaimes, I don't think there's any way he could actually be the last.
Iso: I basically said this at the start of the Day, but Iso is only scum if he deliberately decided to put together a team including his other 2 buddies 100 posts into D1. The goal would then be to lynch Eco, see the Town flip, go "oh no mah read r wrong" and then still claim credit if his buddies ever did flip. While I wouldn't put that completely outside Iso's scum range, he was way too happy to vote Cyan/GJ instead - particularly on D2 - which obviously ruins the gambit. If (/when) I do die, you need to watch Iso very carefully: if he just peaces out then maybe it really was the long con, but I really think he'd have either made sure I was lynched sooner, or tried to back out of the gambit.
Nacho: There's not of interaction with Cyan/GJ. That's kind of understandable because there was a pretty long period where there wasn't anyone in the slot. Worth noting is that GJ frequently listed Mal as a third scum on D1 (#130, #250 for example), basically just calling out lurking. GJ is unlikely to do that to a buddy when it would be so easy to say "he's just absent, null read": it reads a lot like he's keeping hooks in a soft target, not distancing. Then in #789, GJ magically calls Nacho's slot town immediately after Nacho voted Cyan. That's textbook appeasement there, not buddy play. I also think that come #1138 Nacho is really unlikely to put Cyan right at the bottom of his scum list. It would take a lot of balls to come right into D2 and sent your only remaining buddy up the river, and while I don't really know how that might fit into Nacho's wheelhouse, I don't think he's deep enough in the Town circle to risk getting away with that. The better plan would probably have been "lynch Eco, make Cyan post more".
Voxx: I've been over this before, right. I see Voxx very reluctantly narrowing down his PoE to Cyan and GJ in #429. He calls out Cyan in #481, but doesn't vote and just waffles on his position, actually calling him Townish in
#505. Is suspicious of Iso in #476 for being too confident. The problem? Reading back again, if Voxx really is scum then I *think* he'd have gone at his buddies way harder. Once he's realised that he's painted himself into a corner by PoEing down to only his buddies, I think that scum Voxx says "so be it" and throws them totally under the bus to maximise town credit. That's almost what he did, but less emphatically and with different timing than I imagine scum Voxx doing. I don't think I could bring myself to actually trust Voxx, but he's fallen off my top spot.
Tom: Tom's spent a lot of time on my "eh" list, since I wasn't particularly excited about parsing the spider talk. But there was actually a lot of interesting stuff. Like in #504 he votes Voxx immediately after Voxx votes GJ. Or in #850 Tom has no read on Cyan: basically the only person without one. In #951 Tom is really keen to sow doubt to Iso around GJ's reaction to my wagon, and he especially singles out the idea that scum GJ wouldn't know how to handle a Town Eco wagon. #984, Tom immediately accepts the Doc claim. While that was before any counterclaims, the raw Doc claim shouldn't have been above scepticism (Doc+masons is already strong, no flavour was provided),a and he was still cool with it in #998. #1031, Tom is keen to remind us that Iso/Chris/Az was a valid scum team, just to keep the idea floating around. And since we're speculating on NKs, but since people already are, recall that Az was the main crusader in wanting Tom dead. Coming into toDay, Tom has this hipster Town read on me, but he's not actually doing anything about it other than not hammering me (which - despite Iso's assertions - would look super scummy) which is almost exactly what he did in the recently finished Bare Bones where he defended Mindreaver but didn't do anything to actively prevent his lynch.
Seppel: On the surface, Seppel looks pretty obvious. He's floated through the game, without really contributing much, and his more recent posts look very much like someone who has just given up. Other tidbits like in #215 he said "Voxx seems smellier than Eco" followed by a vote on...Eco, which is gross. #942 looks very solidly like a last ditch attempt to derail the GJ wagon with a vote on Iso.
Also troubling is that both Voxx and Tom are up for lynching Seppel. Seppel being scum would be nice and easy, but it's definitely a red flag when BOTH of my other two possibles want someone dead.
Vote Tomsloger.
Yeah alright, that's a fair criticism. I haven't put the time in because it just feels like the game is going to shrug and mislynch me anyway. I guess it's also easy to see Iso being pretty happy about that state of affairs. I just find it very frustrating talking to Iso since I feel he should be trying to think about my posts instead of just stubbornly holding out.
But ok, I'm still here, and I haven't been mislynched yet. Which means I owe it to the town to at least try instead of do nothing out of spite. It's late here. I'm going to sleep on it, and assemble something tomorrow.