You can disagree on what MLD accomplishes in terms of strategy, but he's absolutely right in terms of what it accomplishes socially.
Its isn't fun. Blowing up lands so people can't play? Yeah, pretty much the epitome of unfun and boring.
I disagree. I enjoy playing against these decks and run answers to stop them.
Not every deck i play can compete with them and I don't play great against a highly tuned stax deck, but I enjoy the competition.
I will never understand why people are so adverse to something that is part of the game. Its like telling someone they shouldn't build a hotel on their property in monopoly or getting upset when they pull a bottom piece in jenga. Normally if people dislike a game they just don't play it, but because we have the luxury of different archetypes in magic we've developed this weird rift between people concerning desired competitiveness. We all like to play different ways, but why complain about a strategy that has been part of magic before the format was even conceived.
Why can't we be graceful about it and move on when confronted with decks that are more competitive than ours, or find a format/game that we find more enjoyable.
This, right here. While not on par with where the OP was going to begin with, I'm still going to address it.
I play EDH because I do not want to see the same crap that I see in Legacy/Modern/Vintage/Standard. I'm not here to win, I'm here to enjoy the game. So, what, you're going to tell me games are enjoyable when you can't play anything because your lands are blown up?
Also, no, its not the only tool for RW decks. You(and others) are making it sound like that's the only way you'll win, except its more akin to the only way you won't lose. If you cast Armageddon and it gets countered, did you lose? Sometimes that will be the case, but that outcome is still possible if it resolves, too.
Suggesting people don't play a certain game because of some tactic they don't agree with is puzzling. Its not the game I have a problem with, it's those employing said tactic. Its compounded by tactics that are proven "fun-sucks" in supposed casual settings, like MLD.
Again, you can argue what MLD does strategically, but its pretty clear that MLD is a social Taboo.
It's like vaping. No law against it. There are also people that don't vape who don't care that you vape. However, an overwhelming populous prefer that you don't, and probably think you're a douche if you do.
RW CONTROL IS dependent on things like MLD. RW CONTROL lacks other means to maintain CA over its opponents and lacks real means to control your opponents outside if Wraths. Using MLD along with artifacts is how RW CONTROL would get its CA.
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Having played more on cockatrice, I REALLY don't like the idea of outright banning things on the basis of "fun" because it is WAY to nebulous.
Had one game where someone got mad because I was using UB Skeleton Ship with infect, and they were saying infect was not fun... while they say with an Enchantress Pillowfort that wins by Forced Fruition, Arcane Laboratory, and Decree of Silence...
MLD is a tool. When used smartly, it works.
The worst part? MLD is the only thing Boros has going for it... My Anya Boros Control deck thrives off of MLD since I lack CA and tradition control methods (counters and such). So use lots of mana rocks, keep blowing lands/Wraths, won his Planeswalkers and Assemble the Legion/Anya.
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I like to play MLD in RW and RWB to keep my opponents from answering threats when I'm ahead. I found that cards like Winter Orb, Zo-zu the Punisher and Manabarbs are better at containing ramping players than MLD because they generally recover much faster from it as pointed out by others.
Agreed. Usually it's a temporary fix and the taxes are what really kill those decks. Zo-zu the Punisher and Manabarbs have done work in my Nekusar deck at shutting those strats down.
As someone who does have a Zo-Zu punisher deck (and a Mogis Punisher with Zo-Zu in it), the deck does run MLD. Alot. Since most of the deck is about 3-4 cost, I run on artifacts and MLD and let Zo-Zu do the work again. But MLD os still necessary for him to do his thing (turns out that R lacks many answers to dudes on boards)
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i hate to do this, but in my experience, that sounds like the exact kinda thing that people who've never tried/experienced it in real life would say. Think about MLD against ramp like this:
ramp deck sinks mana and tempo into ramping out lands, emptying their hand and thinning their deck of lands. MLD hits. their GY is filled with a lot of their lands and ramp spells, and their deck is significantly thinner. how is that NOT an effective way of reigning in ramp? a lot of people who seem (at least to me) to like theorycrafting how it'd work in reality seem to think that their hand will be filled with kodama's reach, cultivate and whatever other ramp spells - but that is almost never the case; the ramp player's ramp spells are usually all in the GY, since their strategic advantage is to play the mid-late game when everyone else is still in the early game.
The myth that MLD doesn't stop ramp is something that a lot of players seem to just take as fact and never put it to the test. If ramp is a problem in your meta, sprinkle some MLD in your decks and watch the game swing vastly in your favour.
The biggest problem with MLD is when players who use it don't use it strategically enough. its a somewhat skilltesting card type, in that you need to know when to blow it all up, and when to hold it. if your opponent has a veteran explorer on the board, you might wanna consider not blowing it all up. you want to sandbag a couple of lands in your hand before you blow it all up. heck, you might even want to make sure that your average CMC is low enough that you don't need more than 5-6 lands realistically in play at any one time.
another thing is that at least in my group, i used to be the guy who was the MLD guy, as in i'd have a deck that was just MLD. that isn't fun for anyone. the best thing is to employ MLD as a support pillar for your main strategy in your deck. in my kaalia build, i want to get kaalia out as fast as i can, then blow up all the lands, then hopefully i can race their life totals before the other players can deal with the situation. my strategy ISNT to blow up the lands and hope that my deck will kill the table.
the other myth i think is that if you blow a MLD, you should end the game soon after. if you build your deck with a CMC of 6+ just because you think you can lean that heavily on your ramp to get you there, the problem is in your deck construction, not the MLD. if you think you can lean on one pillar of your strategy so heavily and expect it not to get disrupted, and not have a plan B, you can't honestly fault anyone else but yourself for that. do people here remember the ol' kitchen table magic? remember one of those ultra important theory of sandbagging lands in your hand? of making sure that you dont overextend? dont show off all your cards and bank everything on one out? its like EDH players think that none of that applies anymore, because 100 cards somehow offsets it from the 40 or 60 card deck.
its not a cardinal sin by any means, even if you dont plan to win immediately afterwards. the cardinal sin is that players skew their decks to only play in the late game by ramping there, and expect all other players to let them do that. if that's the case, why not call wraths a cardinal sin, as they delay creature decks from employing their strategy, or counterspells as a cardinal sin cuz they stop spells from happening on the stack?
if a simple and well-timed armageddon, blood moon or pox can wreck your entire game every time, its time to rethink your deck a bit.
Notice the decks I gave examples to... NOT Gitrog because his deck intentionally kills lands. But Azusa, Mina and Den, and Omnath. Decks who's very purpose is fast ramp to play Eldrazi or mass tokens (for omnath).
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Not particularly because they will also be lacking lands in their deck. If they over extend to hard, they can easily hurt real bad (I have seen this alot with my Nahiri Equip deck as I DO run MLD in that deck to lock people out as I kill them with suped up tokens.)
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You can always just ramp harder. Interactive, no, but people also play craps and cat's cradle.
And this, I feel like, is a major problem, when the game becomes "who can ramp harder" because then it is either Play G or spend bookoo money on artifact ramp.
And oddly, I rarely see get upset about creature tutors beside tooth and nail... but that is a whole different issue.
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But how about MLD is a wrath? Again, I point to my Azusa example (Mina also works, but I have seen Azusa as the most egregious of all the commanders), Azusa quickly builds up her board faster than everyone and just lays threat after threat. Normally, the beat way to beat her is to combo off before she starts dropping Titans or to blow up her lands to slow her back down. And I have seen this happen time and again with Azusa, Mina and Den, and omnath (the angry one). And the tables that do tend to have the No MLD rule also tend to frown on combo... which kinda kills both of the main ways to deal with these decks.
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So I guess this is pretty straight forward, what are your guy's opinion on mass land destruction, or MLD?
One one hand, I can see the argument that it can get annoying because it slows the game down, especially if not done as a sort of win con.
On the other though, MLD has a purpose. It is meant to reign in things like mass ramp. It is meant to punish over extending on land ramp, like how a wrath punishes overextending on creatures and board presence. Like,nothing is more annoying than that Azusa deck that will have 8-9 lands on turn 3-4 and dropping Titans when most people are still trying to get their board state situated, not having any way to stop them because the table banned MLD. I have seen many decks that abuse the general rule of no MLD to have an untouchable field advantage that becomes neigh impossible to stop.
So what do you guys think? Is MLD a cardinal sin or is it a necessary tool?
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RW CONTROL IS dependent on things like MLD. RW CONTROL lacks other means to maintain CA over its opponents and lacks real means to control your opponents outside if Wraths. Using MLD along with artifacts is how RW CONTROL would get its CA.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Had one game where someone got mad because I was using UB Skeleton Ship with infect, and they were saying infect was not fun... while they say with an Enchantress Pillowfort that wins by Forced Fruition, Arcane Laboratory, and Decree of Silence...
MLD is a tool. When used smartly, it works.
The worst part? MLD is the only thing Boros has going for it... My Anya Boros Control deck thrives off of MLD since I lack CA and tradition control methods (counters and such). So use lots of mana rocks, keep blowing lands/Wraths, won his Planeswalkers and Assemble the Legion/Anya.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
As someone who does have a Zo-Zu punisher deck (and a Mogis Punisher with Zo-Zu in it), the deck does run MLD. Alot. Since most of the deck is about 3-4 cost, I run on artifacts and MLD and let Zo-Zu do the work again. But MLD os still necessary for him to do his thing (turns out that R lacks many answers to dudes on boards)
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Notice the decks I gave examples to... NOT Gitrog because his deck intentionally kills lands. But Azusa, Mina and Den, and Omnath. Decks who's very purpose is fast ramp to play Eldrazi or mass tokens (for omnath).
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
There is always Cockatrice xD.I play a lot on cockatrice to test new deck ideas before putting down the money.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
And this, I feel like, is a major problem, when the game becomes "who can ramp harder" because then it is either Play G or spend bookoo money on artifact ramp.
And oddly, I rarely see get upset about creature tutors beside tooth and nail... but that is a whole different issue.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
One one hand, I can see the argument that it can get annoying because it slows the game down, especially if not done as a sort of win con.
On the other though, MLD has a purpose. It is meant to reign in things like mass ramp. It is meant to punish over extending on land ramp, like how a wrath punishes overextending on creatures and board presence. Like,nothing is more annoying than that Azusa deck that will have 8-9 lands on turn 3-4 and dropping Titans when most people are still trying to get their board state situated, not having any way to stop them because the table banned MLD. I have seen many decks that abuse the general rule of no MLD to have an untouchable field advantage that becomes neigh impossible to stop.
So what do you guys think? Is MLD a cardinal sin or is it a necessary tool?
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.