MLD needs to exist because I am so sick and tired of ramp decks dominating local metas just because their natural foil is considered taboo.
"But Wyvern, MLD isn't the solution because of how feel-bad it is for the non-ramp players caught in the crossfire."
Please stop. MLD IS a solution; we're just so afraid of offending people that we lie to ourselves and pretend that Keldon Firebombers and Natural Balance are the only ways to halt the ramp menace. I can't remember the last time I 'Geddoned after someone else's Boundless Realms and heard anyone but the ramp player complain.
Personal anecdote: My most common use of MLD is in Karona, False God Enchantress - cycling Decree of Annihilation after I've gone Epic with Enduring Ideal is typically enough to shuffle up for another game. Similar situation to Schutzwald's Mogis deck up there.
In certain situations it can beat ramp, but as others have pointed out it isn't as simple as firing off geddon. After Boundless Realms? Yeah, they've probably got 60-75% of their land out at that point, you'll neuter them. Did they just dump their hand into ramp spells and are planning on drawing into threats and casting their commander? Then yes, you'll set them back quite a bit. But if the player just hit 3 ramp spells early, and you geddon, then they will recover faster than anyone else because they probably still have enough ramp and lands coming. The timing is difficult for a lot of players to judge, and so most people's experience is with players who use MLD incorrectly (mostly because, like most strategies, you only get good at it with practice, and since MLD played poorly is so unpopular many people take it out after a few bad games).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That's some real deep analysis that adds to the conversation.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Then your problem isn't with mld, its with bad players. Its the same idea with aggro. Some people hate it because everyone they know that plays aggro does nothing but overextend and single in on one person, or doesn't know how to diversify their threats or pack answers, so they end up knocking one guy out then folding to Wrath. Aggro, of course, doesn't have to play like that, but that's how bad players play it (although, sometimes its right to focus on one person if they are the person who can stop you, but that's a separate discussion). Its not different than the guy who runs 27counters.dek that doesn't know when and what he should counter, so he counters your fatty and lets the other guy's combo piece resolve. Its not different from the guy that Persecutes or Mind Twists the wrong guy at the table.
Yeh, that's why I said I was fine with it in theory. That said, my playgroup also includes those kind of aggro and control players :(.
Speaking of, I'm not sure I understand the logic of pre-emptively using MLD against ramp decks. I mean even if they blew out a high amount of lands early but it's still early enough in the game where a MLD activation would hinder them, wouldn't it just slow down the game to a crawl because I wrecked -everyone's- lands and now we all have to recovery? Seems like a pretty bad play in general unless you're either far ahead or closing out the game.
That's because MLD doesn't counter ramp with the exception of a few cards and people that push that agenda have no clue what they are talking about. You counter ramp with lockdown elements. The thing is, in stax decks lockdown and MLD are used together, so it confuses people. The MLD that hurts ramp is along the lines of Natural Balance, Keldon Firebombers, and Pox. All of those take out more of the ramp player's lands and still leave you with some resources to do things in a lower-curve deck. On the other side of things, ramp decks love playing cards like Wildfire, Tectonic Break, and Death Cloud because they have more lands to start with and can recover those lands as well.
Other than that, what stops ramp is something like Winter Orb or Storm Cauldron. All of a sudden your Explosive Vegetation isn't very helpful if you can't untap those extra lands (along with the lands you spent on the spell) or you have to return 4 lands to cast it.
MLD is used to seal a win. A large board with a Ghostway + Jokulhaups or a Cataclysm + Titania, Protector of Argoth will win you the game. The key to this is playing around disruption. You need to play it in the same way you'd play a combo; you don't just rush it out there and hope you push through the disruption. But, also just like combo, MLD is frowned upon so people tend to be bad at playing it effectively. It's kind of a vicious cycle.
Realistically, if your group banned MLD and combo what you are saying is ramp and gravepact decks are all you want to see, since your W/R aggro cannot compete with that Prime Speaker Zegana/Maelstrom Wanderer/Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck once they get their expensive threats out there.
I think people have seen a ramp player blow their hand out into ramp and have another player tap 4 for geddon the next turn, leaving the ramp player with too few lands in deck to recover as fast as everyone else and no board presence. They mistakenly think that's what mld is there for, when the guy who pulled the play off was running mld as a game winning play and saw the fact that it was an opportunity to use it to screw the ramp player over. Its rare, but it happens, but you should never include it just for that purpose, its the sort of thing that will come up once in a while that you can take advantage of.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
In my experience, I've never seen anyone use MLD and win, the exception of one person I play with that has an elves/token deck. A couple of says ago a person kept throwing down MLDs even though i had a Crucible of Worlds and an Oracle of Mul Daya in play. That's always been the generally story, they wipe the lands without any real sort of back up, often times ignoring what's already in play and even going as far as to miss their own land drops, and never recovering from their own card. So while in theory I'm all for MLD, in practice I'd rather not have the game bd extended for another hour just to watch that person lose miserably.
Then your problem isn't with mld, its with bad players. Its the same idea with aggro. Some people hate it because everyone they know that plays aggro does nothing but overextend and single in on one person, or doesn't know how to diversify their threats or pack answers, so they end up knocking one guy out then folding to Wrath. Aggro, of course, doesn't have to play like that, but that's how bad players play it (although, sometimes its right to focus on one person if they are the person who can stop you, but that's a separate discussion). Its not different than the guy who runs 27counters.dek that doesn't know when and what he should counter, so he counters your fatty and lets the other guy's combo piece resolve. Its not different from the guy that Persecutes or Mind Twists the wrong guy at the table.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
In my earlier EDH days I used to use mass LD a lot. But as I grew as a player and deckbuilder I learned the errors of my ways. These days I rely on Winter orb and Stasis locks.
Oh, that's evil. I'm assuming you thwart a lot of people that way when you deprive them of their mana? My mind's just gushing with possibilities.
(And that's not even with cards like Seedborn Muse that break it into a million little pieces.)
@Buffsam89: You know, there are ways around Armageddon. Crucible of Worlds or just plain Darksteel Ingot and friends. (Like, seriously, why do people not diversify their mana bases?)
Hey, thanks, not like I wasn't aware of that or anything.
Maybe read the post? I didn't have to deal with it, the remaining players who were clearly ill-equipped to handle it were. Guess they need to invest $60 to save themselves from it. (Like, really, did you even read?)
Honestly, MLD has no place at casual tables. It's just a total fun-suck. Tap down and lockouts are a bit different, a well timed Disenchant can bring the the table back to normal, not the case after a 'Geddon. As I said above, 9 times out of 10 it affects the wrong players in the worst possible way. If your group is competetive(closed), fire away! It's an expectation that you are readily prepared to deal with or live with. Not the case for the games I primarily play.
Wow, a whole $60 on cards that are good anyway.
I can see being annoyed with MLD that's improperly used, just like someone who slings counterspells with no threat assessment or shutting down the guy that isn't the threat. But whining about mld on principal? That's like whining that someone won with a combo, or that someone countered your combo.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
So I play Magic Online, and MLD = instant concession from players. But the thing is that when people cast a Wrath of God, and I'm playing a creature deck, its the same amount of cards in my deck that get invested into building up the board. Sure mana is the thing that allows you to get back into the game again, but without previous card advantage, you are just as much blown out as MLD. But of course mass creature removal is "fine".
MLD is extremely powerful, but needs the right timing to get advantage, and actually if people play it out, drawing into lands and the player who casts it doesn't, then the game can turn out badly for them. MLD is high-risk and high-reward. Don't just assume it automatically wins the game, and pay heed to the number of times a player will be holding onto the card without an opportunity to really cast it to win.
I play online as well, and I'm probably one of those players. Most action takes place in the "Just for Fun" queue, so if your idea of "fun" is to drag out a game like that, I'll just concede and move onto the next one. Its obviously different circumstances IRL, but I'm not about to spend ~50 minutes durdling when I can easily find another game.
And no, Wrath of God does not equal Armegeddon. If you get blown out by a creature sweeper, that's your fault, don't over extend. Armageddon punishes all players, even the ones fairly building their mana-base one turn at a time. This is EDH, you know. You always have access to at least one creature...
I'd say it depends on when it hits. If its turn 10 and they geddon, they are probably going to win. MLD that isn't NBL hate best serves to either lock in board state advantage and lets the caster win, or allows the caster to win because they broke symmetry. If the caster is playing correctly, you aren't going to durdle for 50 minutes. Of course, if you feel like quitting, your probably right to, as if you had a chance after the mld spell resolved you probably wouldn't feel like quitting.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
You need to be able to take advantage of it. Random geddons are stupid. Throwing nbl hate in a deck full of basics is smart. Running mld in a deck with lots of artifact ramp and crucible and other ways of getting lands back is a legit strategy, because again you break the symmetry. Using mld to ice the game once you are ahead on board position is another valid use. Desolation Angel is a good example, or getting walkers on the field and following up with wrath and geddon.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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In certain situations it can beat ramp, but as others have pointed out it isn't as simple as firing off geddon. After Boundless Realms? Yeah, they've probably got 60-75% of their land out at that point, you'll neuter them. Did they just dump their hand into ramp spells and are planning on drawing into threats and casting their commander? Then yes, you'll set them back quite a bit. But if the player just hit 3 ramp spells early, and you geddon, then they will recover faster than anyone else because they probably still have enough ramp and lands coming. The timing is difficult for a lot of players to judge, and so most people's experience is with players who use MLD incorrectly (mostly because, like most strategies, you only get good at it with practice, and since MLD played poorly is so unpopular many people take it out after a few bad games).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That's some real deep analysis that adds to the conversation.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think people have seen a ramp player blow their hand out into ramp and have another player tap 4 for geddon the next turn, leaving the ramp player with too few lands in deck to recover as fast as everyone else and no board presence. They mistakenly think that's what mld is there for, when the guy who pulled the play off was running mld as a game winning play and saw the fact that it was an opportunity to use it to screw the ramp player over. Its rare, but it happens, but you should never include it just for that purpose, its the sort of thing that will come up once in a while that you can take advantage of.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Then your problem isn't with mld, its with bad players. Its the same idea with aggro. Some people hate it because everyone they know that plays aggro does nothing but overextend and single in on one person, or doesn't know how to diversify their threats or pack answers, so they end up knocking one guy out then folding to Wrath. Aggro, of course, doesn't have to play like that, but that's how bad players play it (although, sometimes its right to focus on one person if they are the person who can stop you, but that's a separate discussion). Its not different than the guy who runs 27counters.dek that doesn't know when and what he should counter, so he counters your fatty and lets the other guy's combo piece resolve. Its not different from the guy that Persecutes or Mind Twists the wrong guy at the table.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Wow, a whole $60 on cards that are good anyway.
I can see being annoyed with MLD that's improperly used, just like someone who slings counterspells with no threat assessment or shutting down the guy that isn't the threat. But whining about mld on principal? That's like whining that someone won with a combo, or that someone countered your combo.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'd say it depends on when it hits. If its turn 10 and they geddon, they are probably going to win. MLD that isn't NBL hate best serves to either lock in board state advantage and lets the caster win, or allows the caster to win because they broke symmetry. If the caster is playing correctly, you aren't going to durdle for 50 minutes. Of course, if you feel like quitting, your probably right to, as if you had a chance after the mld spell resolved you probably wouldn't feel like quitting.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!