Is Razaketh, the Foulblooded a better choice? I still like Vilis, Broker of Blood as a budget option substitute (Razaketh is $10-12 while vilis is about $1.) Razaketh has trample, which can't be ignored with 8 power. Vilis can get chump blocked out easily.
My card order for Marchesa came in. Note that I have an upgraded mana base for the list. Basic lands are there until I type my real lands into the list. For my next EDH game:
The deck is running 3 plans for winning: Combos, boardwipes where we get our creatures back, and just generally riding Marchesa to victory with creatures.
While combos are usually considered a very linear form of play, this deck doesn't combo off with a commander and generally requires 3 cards to get an infinite combo going. Finding 3 cards is VERY difficult, almost untenable, in an EDH game. I make up for this by making sure all of the combo pieces are pretty decent on their own/add synergy to the deck without the need to combo off. Also, many of the combo pieces are interchangeable with each other, leading to a greater ability to naturally draw into a combo without too much searching. This should keep the deck from falling into a one-track mind.
The synergy of the combo pieces are great because you can choose not to play the deck as an infinite combo if you want. For example, my Scarab god deck has one infinite combo in there. After comboing in off, I still wanted to play the deck next game. I promised my friends I would not infinite combo off no matter what this game, and they were all happy with that. In a way, you can adjust the power level of the deck on the fly without having to actually change any cards around.
Redcap is about the only combo card that does not share much synergy with the deck. Upon closer inspection, it can be a little helpful at times. He can target our own life total so that we can dethrone again. He can adjust opponent's life totals a bit, helping us aim the team at the most threatening player. His -1/-1 persist counter can be removed by Marchesa's dethrone ability. While obviously a weaker stand alone card, it's combotastic potential makes it a staple in this deck.
I'm considering adding Damnation to the deck. This card should really be an auto-include for the list I feel, barring price restrictions. Boardwipes were my main win-con for this deck in it's previous iteration. They work wonders for us. The really nice thing is, we can attack whoever we want so long as we have the Marchesa creature protection. Just fullswing, boardwipe, get our creatures back and watch our opponents cry.
I was not expecting a this deck to be a 10 on the powerscale. My decks fall in the 5-8 category by my estimates. That's where I like to play. I can't afford to fully upgrade EDH decks. Also extremely linear edh decks aren't fun to me. I really love Marchesa, she's just needed to get dusted off, buffed and coated for my new play group.
Uh, a 6? 7? It's probably my most tuned, most piloted deck as it started as a pet project that's evolved into something new. I did a brief foray into cEDH but I found it boring. The majority of my interest in EDH is being creative. It is easy to make a good deck, I am more interested in taking an unusual theme and making that good. cEDH is just a race to the most efficient which leaves little for creativity; they're the most boring decks for me to make and while playing them is rewarding it is difficult to get a good cEDH pod. The majority of players aren't building cEDH to play cEDH, they build a facsimile of cEDH just to pubstomp players who don't know any better. This behaviour is poisonous as it turns away particular players and others adapt the mentality of spending more money is the only way out, which then locks another batch of players out. Because sadly, frequently, the only way to improve a cEDH deck is to spend more money; while something that is less powerful lets you be creative with different themes or trying something new out.
I think Benthic Biomancer is a better Looter than Looter il-Kor. It's a Wizard so it benefits from Metallic Mimic and Sage of Fables, allowing you to repeatedly Sacrifice it for value. It would also ETB with a +1/+1, so that instantly draws you a card. If you don't have that, you can just swing each turn to get more Loots. It also protects itself in a pinch by Adapting in response to removal.
Magmasaur is too costly for my build to consider. My cards that cost 5+ are there to win me the game, not do cute things. That's one of the things that sucks about this particular build is that I don't have time to do silly things, I need to be efficient with my win. Since you're going more midrange, you can afford to do some more card advantage tricks. One of the best cards I saw for a Midrange Marchesa was Pilgrim's Eye; it flew in for damage and colour fixed his budget mana base but also ensured he would have a land drop each turn for his expensive Creatures.
Benthic Biomancer is definitely good. I'm planning on running both that and looter il-kor. Kor can just be a sneaky little sniper, and can help adjust players life totals by basically having unblockable on it. It can help set things up so that the person you want to attack next turn is at the highest life total.
I do like your 5+ drops, thanks for mentioning them. That Sadistic Hypnotist does look like a bad boy. Especially when lined up with all of the very low cost creatures in the deck. Also, I want the evening star as well. That is brutal with a sac. outlet.
Magmasaur may not fit your build, but it's far from a cute effect. It is protected from destroy and sac. effects with marchesa out. Consider, when playing against 3 opponents it nets 15 damage to them for 5 mana, and it was at least a blocker before then. I have also dethroned with it, or otherwise moved counters onto magmasaur to deal even more than 5 damage to non-flyers and players. You can literally lock people out from keeping their commanders on board. If their commander has less than 5 toughness, you can just keep sacrificing magmasaur each time they play their commander (on your turn.) I've done this before to good effect. It also just straight up stops people from playing ground creatures with less than 5 toughness if they think magmasaur will stick around. If they don't play creatures, then Marchesa attacks with less impediment, so it works out either way for us.
As to Yeti's comment on boardwipes being a thing for Marchesa, yes they can be a good theme for the deck. My first deck iteration was built around this theme and it's not going away. The idea is play out early creatures and Marchesa, acquire counters and deal a bunch of damage, then boardwipe once we've hit a roadblock in our attacks. Or you have a blood artist out. Or our opponents have spent most of their hands on creatures. The deck really doesn't mind having 2 boardwipes in hand mid-late game. Playing one a turn after the other with creatures on board that survive is end game usually. I've found Chain Reaction since then and also acquired a damnation which would work well. Also, I was only recently introduced to Jokulhaups which can be a wincon as early as turn 6-7 with the right conditions.
Glad to see there's a thriving Marchesa crowd around!
I see. Thanks for the response. I'm starting to realize that Marchesa does provide this sneaky kind of card advantage in that what ever creature we play usually gets at least 2 lives with Marchesa out.
I'm gaining a higher appreciation for Smuggler's Copter after playing it out finally in my sydri artifact deck the other night. It survives boardwipes, and gives creatures a kind of psuedo-haste in that they can provide attacking power the turn the come out. I made a slot for it in my deck.
I scrapped the whole "Oops all combos" idea. After ghost testing through tappedout.net, I realized it wouldn't be that much fun to play, or play against.
I'm still revamping my Marchesa list. Now I'm making her more midrange focused, with an emphasis on boardwipes. I loved having plenty of wipes in my previous build as we can often set it up to use them with near impunity. The amount of board advantage we can gain over our opponents is pretty great when we can bring all of our creatures back. My opponents have even cautioned each other against using their own boardwipes when Marchesa's team is on board with counters, realizing how much advantage I would gain.
After looking at your deck list, I lowered my creature curve a bit. With some self-play testing, I'm beginning to realize the power of consistently having out a creature or 2 before Marchesa hits the board. To maximize her potential, we either want to give her haste or have creatures already on board that can attack the turn she drops down.
One of my pet cards in this build is Magmasaur. It takes a turn to really use his ability, but we want to push through damage to all opponents at once when we can. He comes down with counters, so he's always protected with Marchesa out. I've won more than one game with this guy. If you can do a legit boardwipe with him, and keep marchesa out, the damage just keeps churning through after that. A bit expensive cmc for your build perhaps, but this guy is better than he looks I believe. I put it in thinking it'd be a funny card, it ended up being funny and powerful.
I can get down with some looting too! My favorite looter for this deck is looter il-kor. I put him back in my list.
How would you rate your Marchesa deck on a 1-10 powerscale with 10 being an ultra-tuned competitive EDH deck?
Hello Tev. I noticed you are playing a good amount of the combo pieces I'm using in my combo-centric Marchesa build.
I'm wondering if you've considered added Murderous Redcap into the mix. He combos with Spark Double and a sac. outlet for infinite damage. You just have double copy redcap, sac. it, it persists, but it gets a counter, but then you give it persist again.
Then you can also go redcap plus Metallic Mimic plus sac. outlet for infinite damage. Why do you currently have mimic in the build? Is it just to help Marchesa get a counter primarily?
I'm also wondering if you have thought about Exsanguinate for this list. It can help protect you against dying on the crackback while also draining all opponents. Anyway, I love the list! I may pick up some tasty goodies from it if I end up not liking the combo. route I'm taking with my deck.
Are you running Skullclamp? I've always loved that in a Marchesa build.
One more question, it seems like the deck is low on card draw. Are you finding that to be a problem? Do you tend to run out of cards before the game is over? It seems like cutting a couple of creatures for cards like Concentrate or Ambition's Cost might help. It's just my guess, but I have never played an EDH deck as low to the ground or aggro as yours before either.
My card order for Marchesa came in. Note that I have an upgraded mana base for the list. Basic lands are there until I type my real lands into the list. For my next EDH game:
1 Walking Ballista
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Metallic Mimic
1 Mikaeus the unhallowed
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Spark Double
1 Sage of Fables
Sac. outlets (also for combo)
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Yahenni, Undying Partisan
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Grimgrin, corpse-born
Tutors
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Trinket Mage
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Rune Scarred Demon
Creatures
1 Spellskite
1 Oona's Blackguard
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Loyal Drake
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
1 Thief of Sanity
1 Ravenous Chupacabra
1 Hostage Taker
1 Dack's Duplicate
1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Sol Ring
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Mind Stone
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Card draw
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Skullclamp
1 Benthic Biomancer
1 Looter il-kor
1 Fblthp, the lost
1 Baleful Strix
1 Dusk Legion Zealot
1 Smuggler's Copter
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Midnight Reaper
1 Grim Haruspex
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Concentrate
1 Mulldrifter
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Swiftfoot boots
1 Unspeakable symbol
Boardwipe
1 Ashling the Pilgrim
1 Grave pact
1 Magmasaur
1 Living Death
1 Deadly Tempest
1 Jokulhaups
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Blasphemous Act
13x Island
13x Mountain
13x Swamp
While combos are usually considered a very linear form of play, this deck doesn't combo off with a commander and generally requires 3 cards to get an infinite combo going. Finding 3 cards is VERY difficult, almost untenable, in an EDH game. I make up for this by making sure all of the combo pieces are pretty decent on their own/add synergy to the deck without the need to combo off. Also, many of the combo pieces are interchangeable with each other, leading to a greater ability to naturally draw into a combo without too much searching. This should keep the deck from falling into a one-track mind.
The synergy of the combo pieces are great because you can choose not to play the deck as an infinite combo if you want. For example, my Scarab god deck has one infinite combo in there. After comboing in off, I still wanted to play the deck next game. I promised my friends I would not infinite combo off no matter what this game, and they were all happy with that. In a way, you can adjust the power level of the deck on the fly without having to actually change any cards around.
As to the combos, my favorites are Murderous Redcap+Spark Double+Sac. outlet, and
Sage of Fables+Flayer of the Hatebound+Ashnod's Altar I figured these out on my own (with assurance from the rules gurus that they worked,) and they use cards that were already in the deck anyway!
The only 2 card combo is Walking Ballista+Mikaeus, The Unhallowed
Redcap works with Mikaeus as long as a sac. outlet is out.
Redcap+Metallic Mimic+sac. outlet
Redcap is about the only combo card that does not share much synergy with the deck. Upon closer inspection, it can be a little helpful at times. He can target our own life total so that we can dethrone again. He can adjust opponent's life totals a bit, helping us aim the team at the most threatening player. His -1/-1 persist counter can be removed by Marchesa's dethrone ability. While obviously a weaker stand alone card, it's combotastic potential makes it a staple in this deck.
I'm considering adding Damnation to the deck. This card should really be an auto-include for the list I feel, barring price restrictions. Boardwipes were my main win-con for this deck in it's previous iteration. They work wonders for us. The really nice thing is, we can attack whoever we want so long as we have the Marchesa creature protection. Just fullswing, boardwipe, get our creatures back and watch our opponents cry.
Benthic Biomancer is definitely good. I'm planning on running both that and looter il-kor. Kor can just be a sneaky little sniper, and can help adjust players life totals by basically having unblockable on it. It can help set things up so that the person you want to attack next turn is at the highest life total.
I do like your 5+ drops, thanks for mentioning them. That Sadistic Hypnotist does look like a bad boy. Especially when lined up with all of the very low cost creatures in the deck. Also, I want the evening star as well. That is brutal with a sac. outlet.
Magmasaur may not fit your build, but it's far from a cute effect. It is protected from destroy and sac. effects with marchesa out. Consider, when playing against 3 opponents it nets 15 damage to them for 5 mana, and it was at least a blocker before then. I have also dethroned with it, or otherwise moved counters onto magmasaur to deal even more than 5 damage to non-flyers and players. You can literally lock people out from keeping their commanders on board. If their commander has less than 5 toughness, you can just keep sacrificing magmasaur each time they play their commander (on your turn.) I've done this before to good effect. It also just straight up stops people from playing ground creatures with less than 5 toughness if they think magmasaur will stick around. If they don't play creatures, then Marchesa attacks with less impediment, so it works out either way for us.
As to Yeti's comment on boardwipes being a thing for Marchesa, yes they can be a good theme for the deck. My first deck iteration was built around this theme and it's not going away. The idea is play out early creatures and Marchesa, acquire counters and deal a bunch of damage, then boardwipe once we've hit a roadblock in our attacks. Or you have a blood artist out. Or our opponents have spent most of their hands on creatures. The deck really doesn't mind having 2 boardwipes in hand mid-late game. Playing one a turn after the other with creatures on board that survive is end game usually. I've found Chain Reaction since then and also acquired a damnation which would work well. Also, I was only recently introduced to Jokulhaups which can be a wincon as early as turn 6-7 with the right conditions.
Glad to see there's a thriving Marchesa crowd around!
I'm gaining a higher appreciation for Smuggler's Copter after playing it out finally in my sydri artifact deck the other night. It survives boardwipes, and gives creatures a kind of psuedo-haste in that they can provide attacking power the turn the come out. I made a slot for it in my deck.
I scrapped the whole "Oops all combos" idea. After ghost testing through tappedout.net, I realized it wouldn't be that much fun to play, or play against.
I'm still revamping my Marchesa list. Now I'm making her more midrange focused, with an emphasis on boardwipes. I loved having plenty of wipes in my previous build as we can often set it up to use them with near impunity. The amount of board advantage we can gain over our opponents is pretty great when we can bring all of our creatures back. My opponents have even cautioned each other against using their own boardwipes when Marchesa's team is on board with counters, realizing how much advantage I would gain.
After looking at your deck list, I lowered my creature curve a bit. With some self-play testing, I'm beginning to realize the power of consistently having out a creature or 2 before Marchesa hits the board. To maximize her potential, we either want to give her haste or have creatures already on board that can attack the turn she drops down.
I like Sygg, River Cutthroat. I'm going to get myself one.
One of my pet cards in this build is Magmasaur. It takes a turn to really use his ability, but we want to push through damage to all opponents at once when we can. He comes down with counters, so he's always protected with Marchesa out. I've won more than one game with this guy. If you can do a legit boardwipe with him, and keep marchesa out, the damage just keeps churning through after that. A bit expensive cmc for your build perhaps, but this guy is better than he looks I believe. I put it in thinking it'd be a funny card, it ended up being funny and powerful.
I can get down with some looting too! My favorite looter for this deck is looter il-kor. I put him back in my list.
How would you rate your Marchesa deck on a 1-10 powerscale with 10 being an ultra-tuned competitive EDH deck?
I'm wondering if you've considered added Murderous Redcap into the mix. He combos with Spark Double and a sac. outlet for infinite damage. You just have double copy redcap, sac. it, it persists, but it gets a counter, but then you give it persist again.
Then you can also go redcap plus Metallic Mimic plus sac. outlet for infinite damage. Why do you currently have mimic in the build? Is it just to help Marchesa get a counter primarily?
I'm also wondering if you have thought about Exsanguinate for this list. It can help protect you against dying on the crackback while also draining all opponents. Anyway, I love the list! I may pick up some tasty goodies from it if I end up not liking the combo. route I'm taking with my deck.
Are you running Skullclamp? I've always loved that in a Marchesa build.
One more question, it seems like the deck is low on card draw. Are you finding that to be a problem? Do you tend to run out of cards before the game is over? It seems like cutting a couple of creatures for cards like Concentrate or Ambition's Cost might help. It's just my guess, but I have never played an EDH deck as low to the ground or aggro as yours before either.
Please take a look at my Marchesa combo deck if you're at all interested. Though it's quite different, you never know where you can find a good synergistic piece. It's still in it's development with it's first pilot test coming soon.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/811419-oops-all-combos-marchesa-the-black-rose-help-me#c3