Came to tell you I was wrong... lol. 4 Collective Brutality is not good. Went 0 3 at a 44 person grand prx trial. Played against white green decks three times in a row. I think I saw Eternal Witness a thousand times tonight, and never saw Surgical. Really needed Wrench Mind tonight. I haven't had my butt smacked around this badly in a long time. Was worth it to find out that it didn't work. I missed with bad duress mode three times tonight. I would apologize to memorylapse but I think he can't see my post.
In all seriousness, I can go back and forth between CB and Wrench Mind. I don't think Wrench is a bad card. I don't think I want four CB, realistically, because I am comfortable with Funeral Charm zapping mana dorks, and a bit of instant-speed discard. I think 2 CB is good in my meta. I don't think Wrench Mind is out of the picture by any means. I ultimately don't care which cards I win with... just that I win. I mean, Wrench Mind is still very good against Burn and Infect, sometimes even better. The card can absolutely wreck a player that had to mulligan. I don't see why it's a problem that someone wins with one card or the other. I mean... there was a list that played AUGUR OF SKULLS in the main deck. That player got further than I ever had with the deck, so what good is my opinion?
I kind of like having CB as a card I can switch in and out, because everyone knows I play with the deck. In a big tournament, I would probably be a bit conservative and play Wrench at this point, because I haven't tested enough, and I'd like to see a few more decks do well with it before I commit. That's what you guys are for, after all.
For the record, I don't think CB is comparable to Wrench Mind, but I do see my Wrench Mind and Funeral Charm spots as flex spots. I mean, if another card came along, Wrench Mind and Funeral Charm would be the first cards I look at. I count myself lucky to be at a point where there are only two cards I would ever consider messing with, besides goofing around with a copy of Blackmail.
Anyone who does well with the deck should be applauded, and any info they can offer us should be welcomed, whether we agree or not. How does it look to others who peruse this forum and see nothing but insults over ONE CARD? Go into other forums... people are congratulatory and are interested in listening to each other. If I were an 8 Rack player who did well with a couple different cards, and then saw this forum, why would I bother talking to anyone here? How hard is it to say, I DON'T LIKE THIS CARD IN MY DECK and move along from there? "Hey I tried Augur of Skulls and won..." GET OUT, THE CARD IS NO GOOD, IT DOESN'T WORK. That kind of talk stalls this deck's growth.
I remember there was a player (who still comments here) who used to talk about a white splash all the time in the old 8 Rack primer, and they were shot down repeatedly. AND THEN SOMEONE DID WELL WITH IT a couple months ago, and they blogged about it... because why would they share that info, here?
I mean, look at the Merfolk forum. Vendillion Clique isn't a Merfolk, yet, they tested the card and put some data together. They splash white sometimes. They try splashing CoCo for the heck of it and share results. THAT CARD'S TERRIBLE IN OUR DECK. I mean, Burn players are playing with Bump in the Night again sometimes, and I've seen FORKED BOLT place in a list. JUND PLAYERS TOOK OUT DARK CONFIDANT AND PUT IN DEATH'S SHADOW, a card long considered garbage. I mean, how long did it take for a lot of us (myself included) to get over the fact that Smallpox is PRETTY GOOD in 8rack?
Can we just get over it? Someone did well with the card, and some of us want to listen/experiment. If you don't want to, why tell everyone else that they shouldn't bother? I DON'T LIKE THE CARD. Move along. You're not saving lives by arguing over a magic card that someone else wants to play with. If a list wins a GP without CB... GREAT. That would be awesome. It would validate the fact that a deck I love to play can be successful. And that is worth cheering for, even if it has a playset of Scepter of Fugue.
Ah, I see what you mean. I did remove one Scooze earlier but only had the one mode available to me because I wanted to keep the Bridge I had in my hand. Yeah, I did use it as removal there and it did nothing to advance my plan, although my goal was to keep him from gaining life. I see what you mean. If I had waited a turn longer I could have done both modes, but it would have been too late because the Scooze would have been bigger. At that point though, Wrench would not have helped, either.
Thanks for being a pro about it. I get salty when I feel like I am being told to stay silent on something lol. Comes from being an English teacher. I just missed what you meant there. The biggest problem with typing instead of talking.
How is two damage removal? I missed something. So there are rules for the context that we can discuss a card now? I never even said that I used the card to remove anything.
But in my deck, the card is competing with wrench mind for a spot. I am... lost. I don't want to talk about Collective Brutality in small doses. No need to clarify, though. It is what it is. I left this forum last year because of things like this. I will hang around, but being told that I have to discuss a card on someone else's terms is ludicrous.
Wrench Mind is bad against Affinity, so we shouldn't play it then. Wrench Mind is just bad.
We have to be careful with our reasoning and rely on our testing. I played with four copies of Collective Brutality tonight for the first time. I did not side it out. I went 2-1. The card won me two games, and would have won a third game for me if I had played it correctly (my opponent was at 2 life before Scavenging Ooze put the game out of reach, and I had played CB twice for only one mode, so I screwed up, in hindsight). I did not play against Tron or Merfolk. I missed with CB once, and was able to see a card I hadn't see before out of my opponent's hand and all it cost me was a land I didn't need.
Bridge and Pack Rat are still good out of the sideboard. Was able to live the dream tonight with Bridge, Lilly for a scoop, and then Rat + Bridge for a scoop. Totally old school.
I am not convinced we need to be on the play against aggro decks.
I lean on you folks to provide data, because I can only play maybe one night a week.
@Esperino I think you said you tested CB a lot and found that it wasn't that good. I feel like you said that a few pages ago, but I could be wrong, and I don't want to discount/minimize the fact that you put a lot of time into it. Did you play it before the Probe/Troll bans? Would you be willing to test again?
I said before that CB is our Searing Blaze. The card is conditionally a blowout, or it does nothing. ALTHOUGH, I would argue that you can always hit for 2 damage. I can think of several cards in 8Rack that do absolutely nothing late-game. Check out the Burn forum and look at all the old arguments about Searing Blaze. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that it was not a main deck card at all, and sometimes, you see it show up as a 4-of. Burn has several iterations... why can't our deck have iterations? I really want to try the white splash, especially with CB in the deck.
I think Moonglow's deck operates a bit differently than everyone else's, too, especially with Dark Confidant drawing CB.
By the time Collective Brutality becomes a dead card (relative to Escalate), we are likely racing with our Racks, and that 2 damage can make all the difference in the world. 8Rack doesn't do well in topdeck mode, but I think this card adds another dimension.
Wrench Mind is a card I usually take out game 2, unless I am playing against Control.
Moonglow, thanking you for taking the time to write this up. This is on par with one of the professional articles I find all over the MTG web. This is solid.
I am playing with two CB and sticking with it for a little bit. I was only running two Wrench Mind. I never sideboard CB out...
I am really thinking about cutting my two Funeral Charms for the final two CB. My problem, however, happens to be little green creatures that can tap for mana so that a whole bunch of green creatures can come out of the top six cards... those darned Elves...
I really want to try Confidant. I am pretty comfortable with my sideboard right now, and I am close to locking up my list for a run at a big show. I think the Funeral Charm slot is the last for me to test. Confidant sounds really strong in your build.
I honestly think the pros don't get our deck. I think Tom Ross did something great for our deck with Smallpox, but that Paul Chen (or Cheon?) video from Channel Fireball was kind of gross sometimes. Watching someone who doesn't know our deck play with it is kind of bad sometimes, and it's tough to consider their perspectives.
Went to a different store for FNM tonight, though I'm familiar with the crowd. 21 people with 5 rounds, cut to top 8.
I know FNM results aren't always the best thing for data points, but there were some highlights I want to share.
I went 3-0. I drew round four, and realized that I am paying my babysitter more money than I would earn if I stayed around yet another hour to draw again. The store owner helped me out so I would at least get top 8 if I went home.
I did not lose a single game.
Round 1: Infect. A blowout. Kept a one-lander one game, still wasn't close.
Round 2: RWU control. An opponent who knows I like to be on the draw. Game one was a blowout. Game 2 was interesting. He chose to be on the draw. I started with 2x Iok, 1x Lilly, 1x Rack, Surgical Extraction, and two lands. I know how bad it sounds. I kept it anyway. IOK: he has Engineered Explosives, Snapcaster, Wear//Tear, 2 Resto Angels. I grab Snappy and Extract all of them (more on this later). I KNOW I cannot interact with EE once he drops it for one and takes away my win cons. I wasn't too worried about it. So by the time I played Lilly, I had another Lilly in hand, and his EE was on the board for one. I discarded a Rack and a Shrieking Affliction to Lilly, because I know he wanted to get Lilly, which eventually did. I dropped the second Lilly on an empty board, and then played Pack Rat next turn. He scooped. I was attempting to ULT my first Lilly, because I was going to make him choose EE or his lands. I discarded Racks and left the other Lilly in my hand just in case... I was a turn away from ULT, and then he used two cards to get my first Lilly. While I didn't foresee it working out this way, I can agree that taking EE was probably the optimal choice on that first turn; in the moment, however, I felt like I was going to be able to lock him down with Lilly (I took Mana Leak on the second turn).
Round 3: Eldrazi Tron. Game one was very interesting. When he was down to two cards in hand, I played my one copy of Blackmail. (I think he started the game with a mulligan). He had two lands in hand: Sea Gate Wreckage and his final Tron piece. I sat there for a moment, took the Wreckage. This one copy of Blackmail in my deck has replaced one copy of Thoughtseize. Saved my butt. I had three rack effects out near the end of the game, got him down to 2, and with some Map shenanigans, he ended up with four cards in hand. I was screwed... and then I drew... Collective Brutality.
Game 2 of this match was wild. I boarded out 4x Fatal Push, 2x Funeral Charm. I brought in: 2x Pack Rat, 2x Ensnaring Bridge, 2x Dismember. My opening hand was something like: two lands, Smallpox, Bridge, Pack Rat, IOK, Rack. He CHOSE TO BE ON THE DRAW. Expecting Chalice, I kept my hand. When he played Thought Knot Seer, he took the Bridge. I actually had a chance to play the Bridge when I had three lands, but instead played Pack Rat and Rack. NOW... I had four mana and played Pack Rat shenanigans: Discard a card, use the other mana to activate Mutavault (I had to tap it for mana, but it still pumped my rats). I was able to swing through a Batterskull (I swung with four rats that were 5/5 because I activated Mutavault)... and beat Chalice for 1.
I think a lot of people underestimate Surgical Extraction. I have used it so many times to rip out a win-con or a combo piece. This card is not just for graveyard strategies. I have said that before, and I stand by it.
I brought 2 Bridges with me in the sideboard just for Eldrazi Tron.
I had two copies of Collective Brutality in the main deck, and saw it exactly twice. Once, I played it against the control player and used two modes, and then used it for the lucky topdeck win against Eldrazi Tron. The only other time I ran two copies in the main deck I ended up 3-0, and it was the night I finally beat Elves. I TOOK THE CARD OUT because I was scarred for life by a player who DID NOT PLAY A CARD against me for three turns once, and beat me handily... because I did not have Wrench Mind or Pack Rat, lol. I have had CB in the sideboard several times, but decided I wanted to try it in the main again tonight.
I do want to talk about Death's Shadow for a moment: I know it has been recommended to try this card in the sideboard. I know Tom Ross loves it. But I played with it in the sideboard for a month and never played with it. When would I play it? Burn? I understand the logic, and I understand Tom Ross use Funeral Charm and gave his Shadow swampwalk one time, but I have never played this card. I used to swear by Nyxathid... and then I realize that I used to use Pack Rat against Burn and was successful. With Smallpox in the deck, I think we are 60/40 against Burn... it's never a match I worry about. With CB in the deck, we have a blowout (or if it's in the sideboard). We keep saying it costs FIVE mana to get something out of PR, but that's not true... because our deck is not a turn 4 deck. At least, most of the time it isn't. We drop Pack Rat onto an empty board, with Mutavault, and we have time to develop this plan. I have never though the card was too slow, but I have tried different things, and now I am back to the Rats. I tried Nyxathid and Death's Shadow, but the Rats are my sideboard dudes.
I think there are a lot of cards in this deck you can dump to Collective Brutality, especially after turn 4. A lot of our discard can become useless, and Raven's Crime is better off in the graveyard, anyway.
Hope some of this helps somebody.
I should add that the Eldrazi Tron player is a Day 2 GP player, and usually makes top 4 at the local level. I didn't play against scrubs, tonight.
Timba what evidence did you provide? Instead of shooting his deck down, why not put the discussion on the table again? He made day two twice in a year with the same list. Results speak volumes.
Since Collective was released, there was a banning and the meta may have changed. Why not discuss why the card might be good rather than the idea that we shouldn't bother with the card. How did someone else make it far with Augur of Skulls In their main deck? And what about the player who ran one copy of Pack Rat in the main? Instead of saying their deck is questionable, why not try to learn why it was successful?
I test once a week. I visit this forum for feedback and I try things people suggest. Hence why I took the card out. These forums are supposed to help us become better players, so I read what everyone says and try things. My experience is not the same as yours. Shooting cards down in a list that was successful TWICE does us no good.
Burn had ten decks make it to day 2. It had the highest representation for day 2.
His list has performed well... twice. What's questionable about results?
I like Collective. I stopped playing it because a lot of people were down on it. You would be surprised how many dead cards this deck draws, cards that are discarded for the extra mode on CB. Proved it's worth for me against burn, infect, elves, control, affinity, merfolk. You will often get a card off it, and the drain two mode is often a huge swing when you have a rack effect. The card is kind of like searing blaze in burn... sometimes it's a blowout, sometimes it does nothing.
I wonder why he played with four copies twice. We have a lot of lists that have done well recently, and though they have a common core of racks, afflictions, ravens crime, thoughtseize, and Iok, the decks that have done well have major differences.
I kind of like having CB as a card I can switch in and out, because everyone knows I play with the deck. In a big tournament, I would probably be a bit conservative and play Wrench at this point, because I haven't tested enough, and I'd like to see a few more decks do well with it before I commit. That's what you guys are for, after all.
For the record, I don't think CB is comparable to Wrench Mind, but I do see my Wrench Mind and Funeral Charm spots as flex spots. I mean, if another card came along, Wrench Mind and Funeral Charm would be the first cards I look at. I count myself lucky to be at a point where there are only two cards I would ever consider messing with, besides goofing around with a copy of Blackmail.
Anyone who does well with the deck should be applauded, and any info they can offer us should be welcomed, whether we agree or not. How does it look to others who peruse this forum and see nothing but insults over ONE CARD? Go into other forums... people are congratulatory and are interested in listening to each other. If I were an 8 Rack player who did well with a couple different cards, and then saw this forum, why would I bother talking to anyone here? How hard is it to say, I DON'T LIKE THIS CARD IN MY DECK and move along from there? "Hey I tried Augur of Skulls and won..." GET OUT, THE CARD IS NO GOOD, IT DOESN'T WORK. That kind of talk stalls this deck's growth.
I remember there was a player (who still comments here) who used to talk about a white splash all the time in the old 8 Rack primer, and they were shot down repeatedly. AND THEN SOMEONE DID WELL WITH IT a couple months ago, and they blogged about it... because why would they share that info, here?
I mean, look at the Merfolk forum. Vendillion Clique isn't a Merfolk, yet, they tested the card and put some data together. They splash white sometimes. They try splashing CoCo for the heck of it and share results. THAT CARD'S TERRIBLE IN OUR DECK. I mean, Burn players are playing with Bump in the Night again sometimes, and I've seen FORKED BOLT place in a list. JUND PLAYERS TOOK OUT DARK CONFIDANT AND PUT IN DEATH'S SHADOW, a card long considered garbage. I mean, how long did it take for a lot of us (myself included) to get over the fact that Smallpox is PRETTY GOOD in 8rack?
Can we just get over it? Someone did well with the card, and some of us want to listen/experiment. If you don't want to, why tell everyone else that they shouldn't bother? I DON'T LIKE THE CARD. Move along. You're not saving lives by arguing over a magic card that someone else wants to play with. If a list wins a GP without CB... GREAT. That would be awesome. It would validate the fact that a deck I love to play can be successful. And that is worth cheering for, even if it has a playset of Scepter of Fugue.
Thanks for being a pro about it. I get salty when I feel like I am being told to stay silent on something lol. Comes from being an English teacher. I just missed what you meant there. The biggest problem with typing instead of talking.
But in my deck, the card is competing with wrench mind for a spot. I am... lost. I don't want to talk about Collective Brutality in small doses. No need to clarify, though. It is what it is. I left this forum last year because of things like this. I will hang around, but being told that I have to discuss a card on someone else's terms is ludicrous.
We have to be careful with our reasoning and rely on our testing. I played with four copies of Collective Brutality tonight for the first time. I did not side it out. I went 2-1. The card won me two games, and would have won a third game for me if I had played it correctly (my opponent was at 2 life before Scavenging Ooze put the game out of reach, and I had played CB twice for only one mode, so I screwed up, in hindsight). I did not play against Tron or Merfolk. I missed with CB once, and was able to see a card I hadn't see before out of my opponent's hand and all it cost me was a land I didn't need.
Bridge and Pack Rat are still good out of the sideboard. Was able to live the dream tonight with Bridge, Lilly for a scoop, and then Rat + Bridge for a scoop. Totally old school.
I am not convinced we need to be on the play against aggro decks.
I lean on you folks to provide data, because I can only play maybe one night a week.
@Esperino I think you said you tested CB a lot and found that it wasn't that good. I feel like you said that a few pages ago, but I could be wrong, and I don't want to discount/minimize the fact that you put a lot of time into it. Did you play it before the Probe/Troll bans? Would you be willing to test again?
I think Moonglow's deck operates a bit differently than everyone else's, too, especially with Dark Confidant drawing CB.
By the time Collective Brutality becomes a dead card (relative to Escalate), we are likely racing with our Racks, and that 2 damage can make all the difference in the world. 8Rack doesn't do well in topdeck mode, but I think this card adds another dimension.
Wrench Mind is a card I usually take out game 2, unless I am playing against Control.
I am playing with two CB and sticking with it for a little bit. I was only running two Wrench Mind. I never sideboard CB out...
I am really thinking about cutting my two Funeral Charms for the final two CB. My problem, however, happens to be little green creatures that can tap for mana so that a whole bunch of green creatures can come out of the top six cards... those darned Elves...
I really want to try Confidant. I am pretty comfortable with my sideboard right now, and I am close to locking up my list for a run at a big show. I think the Funeral Charm slot is the last for me to test. Confidant sounds really strong in your build.
I honestly think the pros don't get our deck. I think Tom Ross did something great for our deck with Smallpox, but that Paul Chen (or Cheon?) video from Channel Fireball was kind of gross sometimes. Watching someone who doesn't know our deck play with it is kind of bad sometimes, and it's tough to consider their perspectives.
I know FNM results aren't always the best thing for data points, but there were some highlights I want to share.
I went 3-0. I drew round four, and realized that I am paying my babysitter more money than I would earn if I stayed around yet another hour to draw again. The store owner helped me out so I would at least get top 8 if I went home.
I did not lose a single game.
Round 1: Infect. A blowout. Kept a one-lander one game, still wasn't close.
Round 2: RWU control. An opponent who knows I like to be on the draw. Game one was a blowout. Game 2 was interesting. He chose to be on the draw. I started with 2x Iok, 1x Lilly, 1x Rack, Surgical Extraction, and two lands. I know how bad it sounds. I kept it anyway. IOK: he has Engineered Explosives, Snapcaster, Wear//Tear, 2 Resto Angels. I grab Snappy and Extract all of them (more on this later). I KNOW I cannot interact with EE once he drops it for one and takes away my win cons. I wasn't too worried about it. So by the time I played Lilly, I had another Lilly in hand, and his EE was on the board for one. I discarded a Rack and a Shrieking Affliction to Lilly, because I know he wanted to get Lilly, which eventually did. I dropped the second Lilly on an empty board, and then played Pack Rat next turn. He scooped. I was attempting to ULT my first Lilly, because I was going to make him choose EE or his lands. I discarded Racks and left the other Lilly in my hand just in case... I was a turn away from ULT, and then he used two cards to get my first Lilly. While I didn't foresee it working out this way, I can agree that taking EE was probably the optimal choice on that first turn; in the moment, however, I felt like I was going to be able to lock him down with Lilly (I took Mana Leak on the second turn).
Round 3: Eldrazi Tron. Game one was very interesting. When he was down to two cards in hand, I played my one copy of Blackmail. (I think he started the game with a mulligan). He had two lands in hand: Sea Gate Wreckage and his final Tron piece. I sat there for a moment, took the Wreckage. This one copy of Blackmail in my deck has replaced one copy of Thoughtseize. Saved my butt. I had three rack effects out near the end of the game, got him down to 2, and with some Map shenanigans, he ended up with four cards in hand. I was screwed... and then I drew... Collective Brutality.
Game 2 of this match was wild. I boarded out 4x Fatal Push, 2x Funeral Charm. I brought in: 2x Pack Rat, 2x Ensnaring Bridge, 2x Dismember. My opening hand was something like: two lands, Smallpox, Bridge, Pack Rat, IOK, Rack. He CHOSE TO BE ON THE DRAW. Expecting Chalice, I kept my hand. When he played Thought Knot Seer, he took the Bridge. I actually had a chance to play the Bridge when I had three lands, but instead played Pack Rat and Rack. NOW... I had four mana and played Pack Rat shenanigans: Discard a card, use the other mana to activate Mutavault (I had to tap it for mana, but it still pumped my rats). I was able to swing through a Batterskull (I swung with four rats that were 5/5 because I activated Mutavault)... and beat Chalice for 1.
I think a lot of people underestimate Surgical Extraction. I have used it so many times to rip out a win-con or a combo piece. This card is not just for graveyard strategies. I have said that before, and I stand by it.
I brought 2 Bridges with me in the sideboard just for Eldrazi Tron.
I had two copies of Collective Brutality in the main deck, and saw it exactly twice. Once, I played it against the control player and used two modes, and then used it for the lucky topdeck win against Eldrazi Tron. The only other time I ran two copies in the main deck I ended up 3-0, and it was the night I finally beat Elves. I TOOK THE CARD OUT because I was scarred for life by a player who DID NOT PLAY A CARD against me for three turns once, and beat me handily... because I did not have Wrench Mind or Pack Rat, lol. I have had CB in the sideboard several times, but decided I wanted to try it in the main again tonight.
I do want to talk about Death's Shadow for a moment: I know it has been recommended to try this card in the sideboard. I know Tom Ross loves it. But I played with it in the sideboard for a month and never played with it. When would I play it? Burn? I understand the logic, and I understand Tom Ross use Funeral Charm and gave his Shadow swampwalk one time, but I have never played this card. I used to swear by Nyxathid... and then I realize that I used to use Pack Rat against Burn and was successful. With Smallpox in the deck, I think we are 60/40 against Burn... it's never a match I worry about. With CB in the deck, we have a blowout (or if it's in the sideboard). We keep saying it costs FIVE mana to get something out of PR, but that's not true... because our deck is not a turn 4 deck. At least, most of the time it isn't. We drop Pack Rat onto an empty board, with Mutavault, and we have time to develop this plan. I have never though the card was too slow, but I have tried different things, and now I am back to the Rats. I tried Nyxathid and Death's Shadow, but the Rats are my sideboard dudes.
I think there are a lot of cards in this deck you can dump to Collective Brutality, especially after turn 4. A lot of our discard can become useless, and Raven's Crime is better off in the graveyard, anyway.
Hope some of this helps somebody.
I should add that the Eldrazi Tron player is a Day 2 GP player, and usually makes top 4 at the local level. I didn't play against scrubs, tonight.
I never thought of DC in conjunction with Raven's Crime or CB. That sounds very cool. It's something I want to try.
Thanks for providing some much-needed info!
Since Collective was released, there was a banning and the meta may have changed. Why not discuss why the card might be good rather than the idea that we shouldn't bother with the card. How did someone else make it far with Augur of Skulls In their main deck? And what about the player who ran one copy of Pack Rat in the main? Instead of saying their deck is questionable, why not try to learn why it was successful?
I test once a week. I visit this forum for feedback and I try things people suggest. Hence why I took the card out. These forums are supposed to help us become better players, so I read what everyone says and try things. My experience is not the same as yours. Shooting cards down in a list that was successful TWICE does us no good.
His list has performed well... twice. What's questionable about results?
I like Collective. I stopped playing it because a lot of people were down on it. You would be surprised how many dead cards this deck draws, cards that are discarded for the extra mode on CB. Proved it's worth for me against burn, infect, elves, control, affinity, merfolk. You will often get a card off it, and the drain two mode is often a huge swing when you have a rack effect. The card is kind of like searing blaze in burn... sometimes it's a blowout, sometimes it does nothing.
I wonder why he played with four copies twice. We have a lot of lists that have done well recently, and though they have a common core of racks, afflictions, ravens crime, thoughtseize, and Iok, the decks that have done well have major differences.