Quote from Sheldon »You're the reason we can't have nice things.
Quote from DirkGently »Before I say anything else, let me reiterate that I don't necessarily think CV should be unbanned, and I don't really care one way or another if it is, and I would most likely never play it if it was.
But I haaaaaate this argument. It requires such a poor understanding of good magic play to make sense. I'm gonna list a few reasons why.
Just because someone COULD have a game-ender doesn't mean they DO. It rarely makes sense to dedicate major resources (like targeted removal) to a merely potential threat, especially in multiplayer where your resources are much more limited than the total resources of your opponents, let alone things they only MIGHT have. Does that mean sometimes you'll lose the game because they did have CV and you bet against it? Sure, occasionally, but you'll win a lot more because you didn't waste cards dealing with a threat that never existed.The majority of good removal (and all counterspells ) is instant-speed. Killing the commander on sight based on theoretical threats is not just silly, it's a bad use of the card even if they DID have CV, because then they still have CV in hand and you've only delayed the problem. You wait until they cast it, and THEN you kill the commander, thus effectively countering the spell while killing their commander at the same time. Using this tactic of course means that their commander is relatively safe, provided they don't cast CV - which is exactly what you'd want, gameplay-wise.Most decks aren't playing LD to "attack their manabase" even if they wanted to. If they are, it's probably strip/waste/DB/GQ/etc, all of which operate at instant speed, so see the previous point.Even if the players involved are terrible at magic and play the way this argument thinks they should, the 5c player could just tell them he's not running CV and head the whole "problem" off at the pass.
Quote from Impossible »Missing the point, as usual.
Quote from Impossible »Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of Stasis being legal. If your criteria is "what good does this card add to the format" I think you're going to need a much, much, much longer banned list.
Quote from DirkGently »EDIT: aww man I wasted my 5000th post. Lame.
Quote from BloodyWednesday »CVs literal text is “you win the game”, how does it not automatically win on resolution?
Anyways besides it blatantly interacting poorly with the format, theres also the point you seem to be opting to ignore that it would create undesirable game states. How? Because everytime a 5c deck gets its five typed lands or its commander in play everyone will just be focused on stopping the CV. So sure, the odds of CV actually resolving might be low due to removal and counters, but its legality would work as a pseudo Karakas only for 5c decks.
Also, again, CV is literally the only card in all of mtg that wins solely by resolving AND is aided by edhs rules. Everything else needs something happening after the original card resolves.
Quote from flaming infinity »I didn't really expect many (or possibly any) just like I don't expect any of those cards would see much play if unbanned. I mean their only 2 points are to be a dick or basically instant win and there are much lower mana ways to do either. So, do you honestly think they'll be played much at all?
Quote from flaming infinity »So, in 2 days, there are zero stories about anyone ever seeing Coalition Victory, Worldfire, or Sway of the Stars actually being played? I think that's a big blow to the usefulness of their bans. Now, here, we don't really ban stuff and there have been a couple discussions about Worldfire and Sway over the last 8 years, but they haven't actually made it into any decks for basically the reasons I've mentioned over the course of serveral threads. I actually have a feeling that the overall feelbads in the format would go down unbanning all 3 and banning some actually played card like Winter Orb or Armageddon. I don't think they need to be banned. I just don't see the point in banning stuff that will pretty much never actually see play. I'm sure Biorhythm can go on the list of wouldn't be played anyway, as well. I haven't even ever seen one in person and never heard about it other than discussions to unban it. I'm sure they were probably only banned because of casual leagues where people ran them to try and find the best win condition you couldn't write a league rule against without effectively banning a large swath of cards. That seems like something that could be accomplished with a houserule ban considering they'd probably never even be played outside of super casual leagues with a bunch of rules to try and police fun sucking. Of course, the 2 shops I've seen it tried, ended up with unweildly banned lists anyway trying to reign in the win at all costs players.
Quote from Impossible »It adds a sense of cohesion and the appearance of an actual guiding philosophy to the ban list. The RC has a bunch of vague, catch-all criteria for banning that are applied with extreme bias and it makes the ban list look comical. Removing CV from the list would be another step in the right direction, like removing Kokusho, the Evening Star and Metalworker was.