Another option to build a deck around it and have its sole purpose be to make that spell work as I've done it with other stuff like undying flames, chance encounter, mortal combat, azor's elocutors just to give some of my past deckbuilding works. It adds another threat to the meta that I have to be prepared for that. It adds more groans and/or cheers to the table amongst friends. It adds creativity to my mind and also my friends minds in the deckbuilding and play phases. Speaking of course as someone whose group has a homebrewed banlist and has had actual experience playing with and against the card on multiple occasions.
Then can you please explain how CV is in any way significantly different from Tooth and Nail?
How exactly does Tooth and Nail interact badly with the structure of Commander? It appears to do exactly the same thing it does in normal Magic.
Well if we want to get all nitty-gritty, T&N plays way better in EDH than regular Magic because it bypasses the singleton structure of the format by virtue of being a tutor.
But like... what? That's the most important criteria here? T&N and CV do functionally the same thing (read: win) when played in a game of EDH. CV being less terrible in EDH than regular M:tG is a frankly ridiculous banning criteria when a better card exists that's still legal.
Not to mention what about literally any other card the combos with a general or even just the rules of EDH? Is Felidar Sovereign up for a ban because it interacts significantly differently in EDH than it does in regular M:tG? Serra Ascendant? Curiosity is a one-mana win the game card when combined with your always avaliable general: ban worthy?
Obviously T&N is abused but a an eye is turned the other way as it would be seen as casual. We always seen the shenaigans caused by it, the usual suspects. Seeing it being abused for massive card draw and tokens (Avenger of Zendikar + Regal Force), as a means to play whack-a-mole with your opponents lands (Khamal, Fist of Krosa + Goblin Sharpshooter/Crovax, Ascendant Hero/ Ascendant Evincar), to unleash some indestructible cthulu-oid monstrosity on the land (Realm Seekers + Vampire Hexmage), to generate infinite mana (Palinchron + Deadeye Navigator), a round-about way to buff your entire army while harming your opponent and yourself (Pestilence Demon + Vigor), to generate an infinite army of hasty tokens (Kiki-Jiki + Zealous Conscripts/Pestermite). I doubt it will even get banned even though it is what enables problems to crop up to begin with.
One of the common arguments I have seen for not putting a card on the banlist for over six years: Its the fault of the opponent for not packing/having "answers" for such threats and because such cards like Serra Ascendant who have no immediate board impact like Primeval Titan which immediately granted two lands upon its entry.
Another is that: Such cards are niche and are not the big ones that warp the format such as Curiosity. Very few decks run it and its relatively easy to counter, thus it is fine. It is fair and as part of a gentlemen's agreement it won't be abused.
Final one is: (EDH/Comander) is a casual game at heart and should be treated as such.
You want me to honestly believe its fine to have a "I win " card on the banlist but ignore the dozen others that are free to be used? Like how about a Hive Mind into a Pact of the Titan, if my opponent's cannot produce red mana, they lose .
If we want to keep Coalition Victory banned may I point out a few others that cause the table to concede?
Possibility of Infinite Mana = Table Concedes.
Possibility of Infinite Creatures = Table Concedes.
Possibility of Infinite Turns = Table Concedes.
Possibility of Infinite Combat Steps = Table Concedes.
Possibility of Infinite Milling = Table Concedes.
Possibility of Infinite Damage = Table Concedes.
If I can make a table concede with just a Ezuri, Claw of Progress with five experience counters and a Sage of Hours that is protected by a Cavern of Souls because nobody at the table wants to deal with infinite turn shenanigans, then isn't that a bit of a contradiction to why Coalition Victory is on the banlist? Because it forces an immediate victory? Because many of the "table concedes" methods that I gave examples of will force a victory by a browbeat method onto the rest of the table if not answered.
Its practically the same shenanigans that went on during pro tours with Timespiral where a deck was running around with Dragonstorm and through browbeating their opponents with the threat, not the actual card, of Bogardan Hellkite, they would concede. Only at one point late during the pro tour did the guy running around with that deck get busted because his deck actually didn't have any dragons.
For every one of these "answers" that people love to bring up, there is an answer for an answer. A well built deck will be sturdy and hard to crack, not simply just flimsily croak and die due to one counter spell.
There is quite a few win conditions out there that are basically "I win cards". How about a forced loss? Such as Bojuka Bogging my oppponent's graveyard and then donating to them a Immortal Coil? That does not take much effort to setup either as the Immortal Coil forces a loss on the controller with no graveyard. Could be in a UB, RB or even URB deck.
How about Oloro? Aetherflux Reservoir + Beacon of Immortality. Get your life to 51+ and then double it to 102 and then spend 100 Life and 9W mana to kill two players at the table. If their a chance at repercussions from killing two, like getting pinged for 1-5 damage, I can knock out one player instead and still have 50+ life and then pick my battle later to pick off the second.
One more example of an easy play: My opponent's are tapped out. I cast Biovisionary with mana from a Cavern of Souls. I then kick a Rite of Replication on Biovisionary and finish it with a Savor the Moment for a "I win" moment. My opponent's couldn't respond because their resources are exhausted. The mana isn't hard to come by because I am in green and most green decks tend to have ramp. Shall I go on and list more easy win conditions?
As one might counterpoint about my examples of "Infinite X" and state how EDH/Commander is a Gentlemen's Game, how its a Casual Game and also how it has social contracts against such combos at playgroups. Or how for instance the Oloro example violates a social contract and would be "quite rude to knock a player out that quickly".
To which I answer: Yes I am here for the beer and social interaction when I am at a table with friends like we are playing a poker game... however I shouldn't forget this a game to be won. If I wanted to build a deck that did anything but win, I could easily build a "durdle deck" and waste the time of me and my friends and prolong the inevitability of either losing or winning by default. If a player wins early on in my group, we up picks up our cards and start a fresh game.
Why I remember for the longest time before EDH became Commander that the banlist was listed as an optional rule. As in more like a guideline than a rule at all. If I may also point this out, my playgroup removed the ban from Coalition Victory at our home group as we disagree with the rules committee's choice. My playgroup's banlist takes several cues from the dual commander banlist which actually has a lot more logical choices of why a card might be on the banlist. As that is one of the other things to point out about the banlist in general: Don't like whats on the list at your group that isn't in a sanctioned event? Houserule it.
RGU Yasova UGR
BU Skeleton Ship UB
U Heidar U
U Baral U
R Kari Zev R
Obviously T&N is abused but a an eye is turned the other way as it would be seen as casual. We always seen the shenaigans caused by it, the usual suspects. Seeing it being abused for massive card draw and tokens (Avenger of Zendikar + Regal Force), as a means to play whack-a-mole with your opponents lands (Khamal, Fist of Krosa + Goblin Sharpshooter/Crovax, Ascendant Hero/ Ascendant Evincar), to unleash some indestructible cthulu-oid monstrosity on the land (Realm Seekers + Vampire Hexmage), to generate infinite mana (Palinchron + Deadeye Navigator), a round-about way to buff your entire army while harming your opponent and yourself (Pestilence Demon + Vigor), to generate an infinite army of hasty tokens (Kiki-Jiki + Zealous Conscripts/Pestermite). I doubt it will even get banned even though it is what enables problems to crop up to begin with.
Serra Ascendant, Curiosity, Felidar Sovereign, not likely to be banned.
One of the common arguments I have seen for not putting a card on the banlist for over six years: Its the fault of the opponent for not packing/having "answers" for such threats and because such cards like Serra Ascendant who have no immediate board impact like Primeval Titan which immediately granted two lands upon its entry.
Another is that: Such cards are niche and are not the big ones that warp the format such as Curiosity. Very few decks run it and its relatively easy to counter, thus it is fine. It is fair and as part of a gentlemen's agreement it won't be abused.
Final one is: (EDH/Comander) is a casual game at heart and should be treated as such.
RGU Yasova UGR
BU Skeleton Ship UB
U Heidar U
U Baral U
R Kari Zev R
If we want to keep Coalition Victory banned may I point out a few others that cause the table to concede?
Possibility of Infinite Mana = Table Concedes.
Possibility of Infinite Creatures = Table Concedes.
Possibility of Infinite Turns = Table Concedes.
Possibility of Infinite Combat Steps = Table Concedes.
Possibility of Infinite Milling = Table Concedes.
Possibility of Infinite Damage = Table Concedes.
If I can make a table concede with just a Ezuri, Claw of Progress with five experience counters and a Sage of Hours that is protected by a Cavern of Souls because nobody at the table wants to deal with infinite turn shenanigans, then isn't that a bit of a contradiction to why Coalition Victory is on the banlist? Because it forces an immediate victory? Because many of the "table concedes" methods that I gave examples of will force a victory by a browbeat method onto the rest of the table if not answered.
Its practically the same shenanigans that went on during pro tours with Timespiral where a deck was running around with Dragonstorm and through browbeating their opponents with the threat, not the actual card, of Bogardan Hellkite, they would concede. Only at one point late during the pro tour did the guy running around with that deck get busted because his deck actually didn't have any dragons.
For every one of these "answers" that people love to bring up, there is an answer for an answer. A well built deck will be sturdy and hard to crack, not simply just flimsily croak and die due to one counter spell.
There is quite a few win conditions out there that are basically "I win cards". How about a forced loss? Such as Bojuka Bogging my oppponent's graveyard and then donating to them a Immortal Coil? That does not take much effort to setup either as the Immortal Coil forces a loss on the controller with no graveyard. Could be in a UB, RB or even URB deck.
How about Oloro? Aetherflux Reservoir + Beacon of Immortality. Get your life to 51+ and then double it to 102 and then spend 100 Life and 9W mana to kill two players at the table. If their a chance at repercussions from killing two, like getting pinged for 1-5 damage, I can knock out one player instead and still have 50+ life and then pick my battle later to pick off the second.
One more example of an easy play: My opponent's are tapped out. I cast Biovisionary with mana from a Cavern of Souls. I then kick a Rite of Replication on Biovisionary and finish it with a Savor the Moment for a "I win" moment. My opponent's couldn't respond because their resources are exhausted. The mana isn't hard to come by because I am in green and most green decks tend to have ramp. Shall I go on and list more easy win conditions?
As one might counterpoint about my examples of "Infinite X" and state how EDH/Commander is a Gentlemen's Game, how its a Casual Game and also how it has social contracts against such combos at playgroups. Or how for instance the Oloro example violates a social contract and would be "quite rude to knock a player out that quickly".
To which I answer: Yes I am here for the beer and social interaction when I am at a table with friends like we are playing a poker game... however I shouldn't forget this a game to be won. If I wanted to build a deck that did anything but win, I could easily build a "durdle deck" and waste the time of me and my friends and prolong the inevitability of either losing or winning by default. If a player wins early on in my group, we up picks up our cards and start a fresh game.
Why I remember for the longest time before EDH became Commander that the banlist was listed as an optional rule. As in more like a guideline than a rule at all. If I may also point this out, my playgroup removed the ban from Coalition Victory at our home group as we disagree with the rules committee's choice. My playgroup's banlist takes several cues from the dual commander banlist which actually has a lot more logical choices of why a card might be on the banlist. As that is one of the other things to point out about the banlist in general: Don't like whats on the list at your group that isn't in a sanctioned event? Houserule it.
RGU Yasova UGR
BU Skeleton Ship UB
U Heidar U
U Baral U
R Kari Zev R