Quote from Onering »This. There are some real douche canoes out there who will just straight up like about their deck. I played an online match with a Maralen player who announced from the start that he wasn't running combo. He complained when someone removed Maralen the first time that he wasn't running combo and it was just a casual hug deck. He finally convinced the table to let Maralen stick. He immediately searched up a combo. When the table predictably got mad, he went into full "lol I tricked you with my superior intellect" mode. In a playgroup, this won't happen, but in pickup games and online you sort of have to expect people to lie, and you will be burned when you don't. Maralen simply does not get to live for me anymore. For a 5 color commander with CV legal I personally would hold back removal for it, but I see plenty of people willing to play prevent with commanders that have a reputation and I have no doubt 5 color commanders would fit that for a lot of people.
Quote from ChazA4 »Dirk, you may hate the argument, but guess what? It's still a valid argument. And while I'm not a fan of it either, I can see the validity of it.
Quote from cryogen »So wait, do I not hold up my instant speed removal for an unknown potential threat that may never appear, or do I hold it up so that I can answer CV when it is cast?
I'm also confused because you brought this card back into discussion to state why you thought it was fine and wouldn't mind if it were legal. And yet while you continue to off-handedly mention how you see why it's banned, you in the same breath argue every single person who explains their opinions on why it is and should stay banned, including to argue how it fits into the rules philosophy. Make up your mind, should it be legal or remain banned?
Quote from Sharpened »I don't think the problem with Coalition Victory is how easy it is to pull off.
I think the problem with Coalition Victory is how it forces players to interact with any deck that has a 5 color general. I think Coalition Victory being legal will ruin plenty of games where it's not in a single deck.
As people have made perfectly clear, it's not that Coalition Victory is a big splashy spell that ends the game, we have plenty of those. I don't particularly think that it's one of the more powerful ones, although the fact that it can't be used to do other fun things (like Tooth and Nail can) certainly doesn't work in its favor.
If Coalition Victory is legal, my entire gameplay calculus changes when my opponent sits down with a 5 color general. I don't have to watch if they are setting up for it, because simply by playing the game they are doing so. I am incentivized to keep their general off the board, and attack their manabase - even if it's not the best use of my resources to do so. It's not fun for me, nor is it fun for the 5 color player, who may not even be playing Coalition Victory.
You say it may be nice for the guy with the casual Atogatog deck to get a new toy. And maybe it would be. I just think the format is better because the guy can play a casual Atogatog deck without a massive target on his head because Coalition Victory is legal.
Quote from Buffsam89 »Not to travel down the Worship path again, I don’t see how this is even relevant here. Acknowledging that this isn’t “safe” for casual tables ends the discussion, and especially consideirng you added qualifiers to make it “safe” for 75%. If anything, these are the types of comments that skew the focus, because you are not adhering to the criteria set forth by the RC.
Quote from Buffsam89 »And what stops the owner of CV packing their own set of protections? And there are other ways to disrupt EtI besides counter spells. Specificlly the most recent RCotD, Uba Mask, or at the very least creates a win now or lose scenario. Which is also another point, EtI either wins or loses, wether that’s a point in favor of or not is debateable, but that certainly isn’t how CV works.
Quote from Buffsam89 »To me, I usually see EtI as a working mans win. Sure, you’ve played the draw-go game all along, picked a good spot to “go off”, but there are a lot of scenarios that take place earlier in the game that can hinder, or flat out stop EtI, not many which create crummy games for any one player. For CV, you’re talking Kill on Sight Commander and LD. While a EtI win is deflating, having to wade through all the hate just because you could CV for the win is pretty bad as well. This is strictly a matter of opinion and play styles, so to each their own, just the way I see it on the reg.
It may be simple, but it should really only require that explanation. Not to go on to much of a tangent, but what are some of the most powerful EDH generals? Ones that tutor. You are always +1 CA with a card like that in the command zone, and you’ve built a deck around them so you have an answer for most any situation. To a lesser extent, that is what a 5c general is to CV. You always have access to that one piece needed to seal the game.
Quote from toctheyounger77 »
I may be alone here, but I don't get the comparison to ETI, T&N or Expropriate. They're all suuuper strong cards. But they don't win the game on the spot. You still have to walk it over the line and there's plenty of cases where that won't happen.
Quote from cryogen »I disagree.
Interacts poorly - 100% it does. The card was designed such that you had to draw into or use what little ramp was available to get five land types, and draw into multiple creatures or a 5c one. In a 60 card deck this is an huge drawback because you are creating a deck building weakness. In EDH, the rules of the format take care of this nearly. You always have a 5c creature in your hand to play, and your deck is built intentionally to produce all five colors of mana without suffering the same drawbacks that you would have in 60 card magic.
Creates undesirable game states - it wins the game out of nowhere, such that you cast it, no one has an instant speed answer and the game ends regardless of everything up until that point. Yes it is telegraphed in the sense that we can assume every 5c deck runs it but beyond that there is no indication other than the player having their general and lands in play.
Problematic casual Omnipresence - every deck that can run this card should run it and will warp those games simply by being legal. There is also no need to optimize your deck to run it beyond running fetches.
Quote from mtgcommander.net »* Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander. Commander introduces specific structural differences to the game of Magic (notably singleton decks, color restrictions in deckbuilding, and the existence of a Commander). Magic cards not designed with Commander in mind sometimes interact with those elements in ways that change the effective functionality of the card. Cards that have moved too far (in a potentially problematic direction) from their original intent due to this mismatch are candidates for banning. This criterion also includes legendary creatures that are problematic if always available.
* Creates Undesirable Game States. Losing is not an undesirable game state. However, a game in which one or more players, playing comparable casual decks, have minimal participation in the game is something which players should be steered away from. Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere.
* Problematic Casual Omnipresence. Some cards are so powerful that they become must-includes in decks that can run them and have a strongly negative impact on the games in which they appear, even when not built to optimize their effect. This does not include cards which are part of a specifc two-card combination - there are too many of those available in the format to usefully preclude - but may include cards which have numerous combinations with other commonly-played cards.
* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly. Commander is a format devoted to splashy spells and epic plays, but they need to happen at appropriate times. Some acceleration is acceptable, but plays which are epic on turn ten are undesirable on turn three, so we rein in cards capable of generating a lot of mana early given the correct circumstances.
* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Commander is a socially welcoming format with a vast cardpool. These two traits clash when it comes to certain early Magic cards, even if they would possibly be acceptable in their game play. It's not enough that the card is simply expensive. It must also be something that would be near-universally played if available and contribute to a perception that the format is only for the Vintage audience.