Yeah, I saw that too. Not being a big fan of Tormenting Voice, I'm not a huge fan of that either, but considering the role Tormenting is going to play (early discard, early digging, late game zombie discard fodder), that is probably a better card for what I want since it digs deeper. I'll probably use that instead of Tormenting when Kaladesh drops.
The inconsistency of my deck has been bugging me lately. When I get a turn 1 discard followed up with an EoTurn2 Skaab, the deck is hard to beat. In generally, getting zombies to revive before turn 4 feels strong against a lot of decks. The problem comes when I either don't get early discard or don't get an early zombie. No early discard means hardcasting a 3/1 on turn 4.... not really exciting. And no early zombies makes the game nearly unwinnable.
I actually went through a couple of iterations before I settled on my reluctant solution.
First, I looked into adding more turn 1 discard. Slim pickens in that dept. The only other card I could find that offered discard for a turn 2 Stitchwing Skaab (other than Neonate and Lightning Axe, which I already run), was Stern Constable. It would mean that I'd have to go Jeskai, which I'm not entirely opposed to, but other white cards didn't seem like a strong fit. The Constable didn't feel like a strong choice either.
I also considered going back to Grixis and possibly dropping red altogether and running Dimir. That would mean giving up turn 1 discard and leaning more on the "3 drop" geralf's zombies (Advanced Stitchwing and Ghoulsteed), or maybe going to something using like Haunted Ghoul and Voldaren Pariah (flip). It's not bad, but I had to cut too many cards I really liked and didn't really have good replacements for them, like Fevered Visions.
So, where I settled, really didn't make me all that happy, but it does fix both problems.
I'm such a sellout, lol. There are plenty of posts of me saying how I don't like this card because it doesn't keep the zombie engine going (because it doesn't add cards to the hand), and how it's a sorcery when the deck loves instants, but barring a nugget from Kaladesh (and I'm starting to lose hope), it's the best I've got. It's early discard, which the deck needs more of, and it digs down to find an early zombie if I don't have one.
I've also felt Geralf's Masterpiece to be less useful than the other 2 blue zombies. Don't get me wrong, he typically comes down as a 6/6 flying, which is great, but the flying 3/x zombies seem to finish out games just as well. (Flying feels so strong right now). I took the 2 copies out of the main, and moved them to the side. Stitchwing Skaab really hurts against Liliana, the Last Hope.
Anyway, here's the new list. Timeos, if you could be so kind to update me on the first page. Thanks.
I've played a few games and goldfished a lot more, and the deck seems a lot more consistant. Voice still feels underwhelming though. Most of the time after the early game, it seems I'm just using it as discard fodder. Sometimes it helps me dig through some land topdecks. I'm really hoping Kaladesh gives us something good.
For my 2nd time in a row, we drafted for FNM, so I still don't have much in the way of results. I only make it to every other FNM, thanks to my work schedule, so that's a whole month of no standard. I did draft Emrakul, the Promised End in my first pack, so I'm not too upset though.
I did manage a couple of casual games of standard last night though.
Game 1 - Deck DID NOT work as intended. No early discard... I had to wait until turn 4 before I could cast my first, non-Take Inventory spell. So turn 4, I cast Stitchwing Skaab. Void Shattered. The exile hurt. Turn 5 another Skaab. Void Shattered again... Turn 6 Geralf's Masterpiece, countered, but not exiled, but it didn't matter because I died on the Turn 7 combat step.
Games 2 - Deck DOES work as intended. His counterspells are dead in hand as I cast only 2 spells during the game (Turn 2 Insolent Neonate, Turn 4 Lightning Axe killing Rattlechains in response to a flashed in Selfless Spirit, and spent the rest of the game bringing zombies back from the GY and keeping mana open for counter magic.
There was no game 3 since the draft was about to start. A teenager who was observing fell in love with the deck while watching. He likes my Izzet version, but says he wants to go Grixis. If he puts something together, I'll see if he'll let me copy his decklist so I can post it. (It was early Neonate, getting Skaab and discarding Amalgam to pay for it, and getting all of them back that piqued his interest.)
Game 1 - Deck worked as intended. 2nd turn Neonate lead to 3rd turn Advanced Stitchwing. Next turn my K's-Return took out his Cutthroat and Impetuous Devils at instant speed. Then Turn 6 on my opponents upkeep, I emerged EDF tapping down his lands, hitting K's Return in the GY and sweeping the board. Brought my Stitchwing that same turn and swung for lethal on my turn.
This happened after the draft; it was late, so we only played 1 game. Hopefully we'll have a stronger showing in the next FNM I'm able to attend, and I'll get more testing in.
Welcome to the thread. Love new people, new ideas and new perspectives.
I particularly don't care for Lupine Prototype all that much. I feel it's best used in concert with cards that care about high creature power and/or toughness.
I feel like, in this archtype, I feel like my list is probably able to empty it's hand fastest, since I can bring zombies back zombies starting on Turn 2. I can only empty mine on turn 4 at the earliest, and that's only if I'm bringing a zombie back on turns 2, 3 and 4. That wouldn't leave me a chance to cast the Lupine. But IF I was able to cast him on turn 4 and have an empty hand on turn 5, he'd be a easily chump blocked creature.
The bigger problem is, to bring the zombies back, i need cards in hand. For the artifact wolf to attack or block, i need to be hellbent. So, I'd either have to commit to the Prototype or commit to the the zombies. They don't really work together. At least that's how I see it.
Timeos is nice enough to keep my list updated on the first page, you can check it out there or my post on the 2nd page that has it.
In the list, I'm using Kozilek's Return and Elder Deep-Fiend as sweepers. I like K's Return because it's graveyard abuse like the rest of the deck. It also allows me to discard it early to revive a zombie without much impact to my overall gameplan since I can cast EDF to get an even bigger sweep out of it. I also like that EDF's flash lets me sweep at instant speed. That's helpful against the Avacyns and Selfless Spirits that are out there.
I use Insolent Neonate or Lightning Axe to get my first zombie into the GY. After that, they do enough discarding by themselves to keep it going.
You're right, Fevered Visions and Take Inventory really help to keep the hand full of gas. What I like best about Take Inventory is there's little reason to cast the 1st copy. You definitely can use it as discard fodder for your first zombie. Then it's sitting the GY waiting for your 2nd copy to come along. That's incredibly useful. I feel really good about where my deck is at right now. It seems as if I have the right number of zombies, early discard, early discard fodder and card drawing. One thing I'm likely to do is drop out the black mana completely and just rely on dumping Prized Amalgams from my hand.
My list is built to be a sort of flash deck. Since you can return the zombies on your opponent's turn. you should. You should do everything possible on opponent's turns. Leaving your mana open on your turn gives you the option of casting counterspells on your opponent or at least threatening it. Then if nothing big comes down, get your zombie back and improve your board position.
Don't forget that Broken Concentration has madness, so if you have enough mana, in response to your opponent's spell, you can return a zombie, discard Broken Concentration as part of the cost, and then counterspell for the madness cost. It's also important to note that reviving Geralf's Masterpiece and madness casting Broken Concentration is the highest mana cost play in the whole deck, so don't be afraid to discard lands to pay for zombies. Especially after you hit 8 mana.
I haven't been able to get a lot of testing in the last month, but I have gotten some in. In my testing, I'm finding removal to be far less useful. We either run into situations where it doesn't work, like against cards like Emrakul, or it's too late against because the ETB or When Cast effect has already happened, like with Ishkanah, Grafwidow or Decimator of the Provinces. I've played games with heavy removal, heavy bounce and heavy counters. I've also played with different combinations of the 3. Counterspells seem to be the most effective. The deck is also slow enough that hard counters matter more than soft ones. Also as Emrakul and the other Eldrazi start becoming more and more of the meta, Summary Dismissal is going to become much more important. I especially like how it can stop the eldrazi, stop the when cast effect and stop the K's Return trigger in the GY.
We also need to be prepared for some possibly splash damage from the GY hate that's coming since Emrakul and Delirium are becoming more attractive options. Counterspells help us address this too.
I personally don't like cards like Tormenting Voice in this deck. The zombies will drain your hand quickly and you need something that's going to add cards to your hand. Tormenting Voice doesn't do that. You play it, you discard a card, and then you get 2 cards. Your hand size goes -2+2, so you don't get any extra cards in hand. Even if you discard a zombie, it's not going to change that you haven't gotten any closer to pulling a zombie back from the GY.
Cards like Take Inventory do much better. the first one does the same thing as Tormenting, but every one after the first add cards to the hand. If you're mid game with 1 in the yard and you top deck it with an empty hand, you get 2 cards which lets your bring back your Skaab/Haunted Dead. In the same scenario, if you top deck a Tormenting with an empty hand, you can't even play it. Even if you're using a card like Catalog (which I recommend over Tormenting because it's an instant, but I wouldn't play it either), you can still play it, but you still end up with the same amount of cards in hand as when you started. You STILL have to wait until next turn before you can bring a zombie back.
My only advice when it comes to building with these zombies is you have to play with card draw that is going to add cards to your hand. I play UR, so I play Fevered Visions with Take Inventory. If you're not playing UR, I'd recommend cards like Read the Bones or Altar's Reap, to a lesser extent Merciless Resolve. I particually like Altar's Reap because zombies come back. Merciless Resolve works well in a zombie deck especially if you have Drownyard Temple.
If interested, here's some tourney footage of discard to revive zombies vs bant co. It doesn't show much, but there is definitely some fun getting Amalgams back. I like the use of Voldaren Pariah (card=Abolisher of Bloodlines]flip[/card]) in his list. I feel like Dark Salvation would've probably been a better card in his list than Ultimate Price. It does show just how overwhelming a game with zombies can be though.
Timeos, I am currently running 2 Elder Deep-Fiend, they're pretty great. It doesn't come up often, but this deck is the only one that can get him into play on turn 3, provided you can get a turn 1 discard and turn 2 Stichwing Skaab. It's not always useful, but it can slow down human's attack on the life total. His biggest contribution in my list is as a way to use Kozilek's Return.
On Geralf's Masterpiece. Aside from late game top deck, I rarely ever hard cast. My goal is always to dump it to the GY and cast it for 4. The 3 discards ensures he enters play as at least a 4/4 (typically a 6/6, though). I also like that I can attack with him when he's a lower power/toughness and revive a zombie as a "combat trick" to boost his damage. I really like how these zombies play together.
I like PB's list too, but as is well known, I'm not a big fan of Tormenting Voice. I'd much rather have Catalog instead since this deck allows you to do so much on your opponent's turn. I also like that Catalog doesn't require you to have an extra card in hand to cast it. You can top deck it with an empty hand and cast it on the spot (and by 'on the spot' i mean on your opponent's EOT lol). In that list, I'd run 4 main deck catalog and 2 sideboard Artificer's Epiphany.
In general, I think exclusively blue is a bad way to go for the deck. Prized Amalgam is such a strong card in the deck since it just gives extra value for revivals. Paying 1U-3U and getting 2-5 creatures with 3+ power in play is insane. I'm not gonna say I think you need to add black mana to support them, but they definitely belong in the deck.
Specifically, and I haven't looked through all of the blue cards, mono-blue seems so slow. In the core UB deck, you can reliably dump zombies in the GY and have them ready to revive for turn 3 with cards like Heir of Falkenrath (flip) and Pale Rider of Trostad. I felt that was too slow and went with red which let's me be ready to bring back Stitchwing Skaab on turn 2. Mono blue, without Nagging Thoughts, you don't get a reliable discard early on at all. If you do cast an early Nagging Thoughts, then you haven't cast an early creature, letting other creature heavy decks get ahead of you in board position.
Finally, from playing this deck for a while, I can say unequivocally you need draw cards that add to the hand. 2 Pore over the Pages isn't enough to keep feeding cards to the "discard multiple cards to revive" engine. Cards like Catalog, Nagging Thoughts and Artificer's Epiphany are good for filtering the deck and getting zombies in the yard, but they don't add cards to the hand. In each case your hand size is the same as when you cast the card. Nagging Thoughts: Play a card, Get a card, Net change 0. Catalog/Artificer's: Play a card, draw 2, discard a card, Net change 0. If you have a zombie in the yard and you're waiting to revive a zombie, having to wait multiple turns will feel like an eternity. The deck desperately wants cards flowing into the hand so they can be discarded out for more zombie pressure.
All that said, I don't think mono blue can't work, but just like every version of this deck, you have to find the right mix of early reliable discard, card draw and revive zombies. I think that holds true regardless of which colors are chosen.
If you want zombie tokens, and I'm not sure you do lol, I'd go with From Under the Floorboards over Rise from the Tides. They both bring tokens into play tapped, but thanks to madness Floorboards can be done EOT.
I think mono-blue could work. I think it slows the deck down considerably though. Off the top of my head, the blue cards that allow us to reliably discard a zombie to the GY are 3 cmc. Catalog and Artificer's Epiphany come to mind. I suppose you could get lucky with something like Pieces of the Puzzle and hopefully get a GY in the yard.
I really wish Welcome to the Fold would work for the deck, but it's really mana intensive. If you're lucky enough to discard it to Stitchwing Skaab, then it's toughness plus 4, so 7 mana to steal a x/3. That's A very high mana cost for a creature you can just block and kill. For bigger creatures you can't block and kill, then we're talking double digit mana. OOF.
I absolutely considered Haunted Dead when I was thinking about adding EMN to the deck. I think if you're staying in black, that's a great creature to put in. He gums up the ground while creating a flying attacker. I could see him in a build that goes heavy into discard-to-revive zombies and really overwhelming the opponent. I decided I really wanted to commit more to blue/red for more consistency.
I don't know what kinda creatures/decks were in standard with Reality Shift since I only just came back to Standard, and Magic in general, with SOI. I do know that it feels like a good card against GW token and a bunch of other decks.
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And of course I'll be going into fastlands too.
I actually went through a couple of iterations before I settled on my reluctant solution.
First, I looked into adding more turn 1 discard. Slim pickens in that dept. The only other card I could find that offered discard for a turn 2 Stitchwing Skaab (other than Neonate and Lightning Axe, which I already run), was Stern Constable. It would mean that I'd have to go Jeskai, which I'm not entirely opposed to, but other white cards didn't seem like a strong fit. The Constable didn't feel like a strong choice either.
I also considered going back to Grixis and possibly dropping red altogether and running Dimir. That would mean giving up turn 1 discard and leaning more on the "3 drop" geralf's zombies (Advanced Stitchwing and Ghoulsteed), or maybe going to something using like Haunted Ghoul and Voldaren Pariah (flip). It's not bad, but I had to cut too many cards I really liked and didn't really have good replacements for them, like Fevered Visions.
So, where I settled, really didn't make me all that happy, but it does fix both problems.
I'm such a sellout, lol. There are plenty of posts of me saying how I don't like this card because it doesn't keep the zombie engine going (because it doesn't add cards to the hand), and how it's a sorcery when the deck loves instants, but barring a nugget from Kaladesh (and I'm starting to lose hope), it's the best I've got. It's early discard, which the deck needs more of, and it digs down to find an early zombie if I don't have one.
I've also felt Geralf's Masterpiece to be less useful than the other 2 blue zombies. Don't get me wrong, he typically comes down as a 6/6 flying, which is great, but the flying 3/x zombies seem to finish out games just as well. (Flying feels so strong right now). I took the 2 copies out of the main, and moved them to the side. Stitchwing Skaab really hurts against Liliana, the Last Hope.
Anyway, here's the new list. Timeos, if you could be so kind to update me on the first page. Thanks.
4 Advanced Stitchwing
2 Elder Deep-Fiend
3 Insolent Neonate
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stitchwing Skaab
Sorceries 8
4 Take Inventory
4 Tormenting Voice
Instants 11
3 Broken Concentration
2 Kozilek's Return
3 Lightning Axe
3 Negate
3 Fevered Visions
Lands 21
2 Highland Lake
8 Island
7 Mountain
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Compelling Deterrence
2 Fiery Temper
2 Geralf's Masterpiece
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Learn from the Past
3 Summary Dismissal
I've played a few games and goldfished a lot more, and the deck seems a lot more consistant. Voice still feels underwhelming though. Most of the time after the early game, it seems I'm just using it as discard fodder. Sometimes it helps me dig through some land topdecks. I'm really hoping Kaladesh gives us something good.
I did manage a couple of casual games of standard last night though.
3 Advanced Stitchwing
2 Elder Deep-Fiend
2 Geralf's Masterpiece
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stitchwing Skaab
Sorceries 4
4 Take Inventory
Instants 12
4 Broken Concentration
2 Kozilek's Return
3 Lightning Axe
3 Negate
4 Fevered Visions
Lands 21
4 Highland Lake
4 Island
9 Mountain
4 Wandering Fumarole
2 Blessed Reincarnation
4 Compelling Deterrence
2 Fiery Temper
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Learn from the Past
3 Summary Dismissal
Match 1 - UW Spirits, heavy counterspell package.
Match 2 - RB Zulaport Cutthroat/Impact Tremors combo. This deck used those cards plus cards like Dance with Devils. It was a fun list. Hardly competitive, though.
I particularly don't care for Lupine Prototype all that much. I feel it's best used in concert with cards that care about high creature power and/or toughness.
I feel like, in this archtype, I feel like my list is probably able to empty it's hand fastest, since I can bring zombies back zombies starting on Turn 2. I can only empty mine on turn 4 at the earliest, and that's only if I'm bringing a zombie back on turns 2, 3 and 4. That wouldn't leave me a chance to cast the Lupine. But IF I was able to cast him on turn 4 and have an empty hand on turn 5, he'd be a easily chump blocked creature.
The bigger problem is, to bring the zombies back, i need cards in hand. For the artifact wolf to attack or block, i need to be hellbent. So, I'd either have to commit to the Prototype or commit to the the zombies. They don't really work together. At least that's how I see it.
In the list, I'm using Kozilek's Return and Elder Deep-Fiend as sweepers. I like K's Return because it's graveyard abuse like the rest of the deck. It also allows me to discard it early to revive a zombie without much impact to my overall gameplan since I can cast EDF to get an even bigger sweep out of it. I also like that EDF's flash lets me sweep at instant speed. That's helpful against the Avacyns and Selfless Spirits that are out there.
I use Insolent Neonate or Lightning Axe to get my first zombie into the GY. After that, they do enough discarding by themselves to keep it going.
You're right, Fevered Visions and Take Inventory really help to keep the hand full of gas. What I like best about Take Inventory is there's little reason to cast the 1st copy. You definitely can use it as discard fodder for your first zombie. Then it's sitting the GY waiting for your 2nd copy to come along. That's incredibly useful. I feel really good about where my deck is at right now. It seems as if I have the right number of zombies, early discard, early discard fodder and card drawing. One thing I'm likely to do is drop out the black mana completely and just rely on dumping Prized Amalgams from my hand.
My list is built to be a sort of flash deck. Since you can return the zombies on your opponent's turn. you should. You should do everything possible on opponent's turns. Leaving your mana open on your turn gives you the option of casting counterspells on your opponent or at least threatening it. Then if nothing big comes down, get your zombie back and improve your board position.
Don't forget that Broken Concentration has madness, so if you have enough mana, in response to your opponent's spell, you can return a zombie, discard Broken Concentration as part of the cost, and then counterspell for the madness cost. It's also important to note that reviving Geralf's Masterpiece and madness casting Broken Concentration is the highest mana cost play in the whole deck, so don't be afraid to discard lands to pay for zombies. Especially after you hit 8 mana.
I haven't been able to get a lot of testing in the last month, but I have gotten some in. In my testing, I'm finding removal to be far less useful. We either run into situations where it doesn't work, like against cards like Emrakul, or it's too late against because the ETB or When Cast effect has already happened, like with Ishkanah, Grafwidow or Decimator of the Provinces. I've played games with heavy removal, heavy bounce and heavy counters. I've also played with different combinations of the 3. Counterspells seem to be the most effective. The deck is also slow enough that hard counters matter more than soft ones. Also as Emrakul and the other Eldrazi start becoming more and more of the meta, Summary Dismissal is going to become much more important. I especially like how it can stop the eldrazi, stop the when cast effect and stop the K's Return trigger in the GY.
We also need to be prepared for some possibly splash damage from the GY hate that's coming since Emrakul and Delirium are becoming more attractive options. Counterspells help us address this too.
Cards like Take Inventory do much better. the first one does the same thing as Tormenting, but every one after the first add cards to the hand. If you're mid game with 1 in the yard and you top deck it with an empty hand, you get 2 cards which lets your bring back your Skaab/Haunted Dead. In the same scenario, if you top deck a Tormenting with an empty hand, you can't even play it. Even if you're using a card like Catalog (which I recommend over Tormenting because it's an instant, but I wouldn't play it either), you can still play it, but you still end up with the same amount of cards in hand as when you started. You STILL have to wait until next turn before you can bring a zombie back.
My only advice when it comes to building with these zombies is you have to play with card draw that is going to add cards to your hand. I play UR, so I play Fevered Visions with Take Inventory. If you're not playing UR, I'd recommend cards like Read the Bones or Altar's Reap, to a lesser extent Merciless Resolve. I particually like Altar's Reap because zombies come back. Merciless Resolve works well in a zombie deck especially if you have Drownyard Temple.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDg-RVUuXrQ
Zombies around the 27 min mark.
I agree with Nahiri's Wrath. It dumps the hand really fast. It's why I play with Kolizek's Return instead.
I like Bedlam Reveler, I'm not sold on it for this deck. Have you considered Fevered Visions. It really helps get cards in hand.
On Geralf's Masterpiece. Aside from late game top deck, I rarely ever hard cast. My goal is always to dump it to the GY and cast it for 4. The 3 discards ensures he enters play as at least a 4/4 (typically a 6/6, though). I also like that I can attack with him when he's a lower power/toughness and revive a zombie as a "combat trick" to boost his damage. I really like how these zombies play together.
I like PB's list too, but as is well known, I'm not a big fan of Tormenting Voice. I'd much rather have Catalog instead since this deck allows you to do so much on your opponent's turn. I also like that Catalog doesn't require you to have an extra card in hand to cast it. You can top deck it with an empty hand and cast it on the spot (and by 'on the spot' i mean on your opponent's EOT lol). In that list, I'd run 4 main deck catalog and 2 sideboard Artificer's Epiphany.
Specifically, and I haven't looked through all of the blue cards, mono-blue seems so slow. In the core UB deck, you can reliably dump zombies in the GY and have them ready to revive for turn 3 with cards like Heir of Falkenrath (flip) and Pale Rider of Trostad. I felt that was too slow and went with red which let's me be ready to bring back Stitchwing Skaab on turn 2. Mono blue, without Nagging Thoughts, you don't get a reliable discard early on at all. If you do cast an early Nagging Thoughts, then you haven't cast an early creature, letting other creature heavy decks get ahead of you in board position.
Finally, from playing this deck for a while, I can say unequivocally you need draw cards that add to the hand. 2 Pore over the Pages isn't enough to keep feeding cards to the "discard multiple cards to revive" engine. Cards like Catalog, Nagging Thoughts and Artificer's Epiphany are good for filtering the deck and getting zombies in the yard, but they don't add cards to the hand. In each case your hand size is the same as when you cast the card. Nagging Thoughts: Play a card, Get a card, Net change 0. Catalog/Artificer's: Play a card, draw 2, discard a card, Net change 0. If you have a zombie in the yard and you're waiting to revive a zombie, having to wait multiple turns will feel like an eternity. The deck desperately wants cards flowing into the hand so they can be discarded out for more zombie pressure.
All that said, I don't think mono blue can't work, but just like every version of this deck, you have to find the right mix of early reliable discard, card draw and revive zombies. I think that holds true regardless of which colors are chosen.
I don't think it's what this deck wants, though.
I really wish Welcome to the Fold would work for the deck, but it's really mana intensive. If you're lucky enough to discard it to Stitchwing Skaab, then it's toughness plus 4, so 7 mana to steal a x/3. That's A very high mana cost for a creature you can just block and kill. For bigger creatures you can't block and kill, then we're talking double digit mana. OOF.
Edit - Pieces of the Puzzle should be Contingency Plan.
I don't know what kinda creatures/decks were in standard with Reality Shift since I only just came back to Standard, and Magic in general, with SOI. I do know that it feels like a good card against GW token and a bunch of other decks.