Once again I'll simplify it. Some women are extraordinarily unconformable with going to the bathroom with transgendered folks. Transsexuals are excruciatingly uncomfortable with going to the bathroom with bigots. While I do no not think the woman should be uncomfortable, and think Trans should be comfortable, its wrong to be dismissive about the woman's or the tran's discomfort. The woman has a "major" problem, and the trans has a "major" problem. My suspicion is, many would discount the woman's problem as not important or trivial. I do not like that line of reasoning becasue then, I would then be presented with a whole host of arguments that trivializes the trans problem. The results of these major problems result in laws and city ordinances that do more harm than good, in many cases.
The difference being Trans people are justified being uncomfortable (since they are often assaulted or harassed) while non trans people are being ignorant (since no trans person has ever used these laws to assault someone in a restroom.) It's not wrong to be dismissive about a non trans woman's discomfort because it is entirely based in ignorance.
Funny, you don't mention my objection to the protection of women who do not feel comfortable going to bathroom with transsexuals, because the objection is the same, for the same reason, yet you only focus on one aspect of my objection and seem to not want to really go into the identity politics being played by both sides on this issue. It may be a straw man, but you are trying to pigeon hold my argument into a singular issue, when in reality it's multifaceted. Yeah, I really really want to talk about that ONE aspect.
The objection is for a different reason though. Non-trans women would feel only uncomfortable going to the restroom with trans people for reasons of ignorance since trans people are not likely to assault anyone in a restroom. There is yet to be one case of a trans person using this protection to perpetrate assault. Trans people want this protection for actual protection since they are more likely than non trans people to be assaulted in a restroom.
Can you provide proof that non trans people are at risk of assault in restrooms from trans people? If not then phobias if trans people are entirely unfounded.
To be frank, you've posted nothing to indicate you grasp anything about this issue, or you are being intellectually dishonest and you've yet to even try to understand my argument. I'm the one being accused of "complaining", being "upset", or ignoring empirical data?
I understand your argument perfectly, you assert that trans discrimination does not happen at a statistically relevant rate, but it does and that has already been proven (and ignored by you) earlier in the thread. Its not my fault you refuse to see that this is real problem. If anyone is being intellectually dishonest it is you for ignoring provided evidence against your claim that these assaults happen at a serious rate.
No, I'm not ignoring the evidence and it does not refute my argument. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand. It's acceptable 0% of the time. So is trans bigotry. I'm not arguing whether or not it's acceptable. Can you answer my question now?
If I told you 100% of the people have been the victim of bad bathroom experiences, do you think something needs to be done? What if I told you 100% of the people had a bad experience less than 1% percent of the time? Would the opinion change? The data Hackworth provided is not compelling evidence of frequency. I'm not denying it occurs and that is the only thing the data demonstrates.
Okay so you just ignore evidence that refutes your argument then? Are you really saying that it is okay that anyone gets sexually assaulted 1% of the time. That isn't unacceptable to you? Even thought the actual rate is much higher as evidence proved.
Okay, what data do you have that trans people run into trouble only one in a hundred times they enter a public restroom?
I'm not asserting this. It's completely arbitrary, as is the claims that it's a "major" problem. I'm challenging you to provide empirical data that shows the frequency to which it occurs, warrants it as a "major problem". I can be convinced it's a major problem, but until someone shows me a figure that demonstrates such a problem, I'm skeptical as to the extent.
Is it really so hard for you to believe that trans people, who are treated as weird and freaky compared to other people just about everywhere they go, are also treated as weird and freaky compared to other people when they walk into the bathroom? Do you honestly think that somebody who is dressed like a woman but looks kinda like a man is getting exactly the same treatment as somebody who is dressed like a woman and looks like a woman?
It's important to understand that I'm not disputing that it occurs, I'm disputing the frequency. I have not denied trans people are victim of bigotry.
That data was provided earlier on this page by Hackworth. I feel as though 70% is well past the threshold for it being a major problem.
Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you determine if a person is trans or not? No one is bring their birth certificate with them at all times. This law feels like Trumps' proposed law to ban all muslims: How can the law enforcers find out about one's religion and other identities when it is not apparent?
Let them tell you. If they choose not to tell you, it's none of your business.
Then, aren't these laws impossible to enforce? I would never tell policemen about my gender and religious identity when I know that what I say will be used against me.
They are impossible to enforce. That is like the third reason why these laws are ridiculous.
No Dox, I gave you 14 points of data. 14 points of logic, not opinions or assumptions. Prove one of them false.
Let me ask you this. Since you only work in anecdotal evidence, how many students go to the school where you teach and how many students at the school where you teach are pregnant? Follow up question how many of those students do you think became pregnant in a school bathroom?
I am only asking that you support your argument with evidence not assumptions, is that really too much to ask? The fact that the data is not easily obtained does not change the fact that your argument falls apart without it. So all I am suggesting is that you find some data then come back.
And please stop making assumptions about me/ my personal life/ my personal opinions when that information has not been given.
1) The higher chance of something, the more likely it is to occur.
2)Heterosexual sex has a chance of causing pregnancy.
3)Higher libido leads to higher desire for sex.
4)Puberty causes a high libido to those going through it, which is especially difficult, due to them never having a libido before in their lives.
5)Sex requires uncovered pelvises.
6)You must uncover your genitals to use the toilet and the majority of installed toilets( in public schools are in bathrooms.
7)Allowing pubescent boys and girls in the same unsupervised room with exposed genitals and curiosity can lead to experimentation
8)Said experimentation in 7 can lead to sex. See 2.
9)Bathrooms require exposed genitals.
10)The first glory hole I saw was in a school.
11)Most school bathrooms are unsupervised (meaning there is not a supervisor constantly in there, nor are their cameras set up INSIDE the actual bathrooms).
12)Not only are men and women sneaking in to airplane bathrooms to have sex with each other, but heterosexual high schoolers and middle schoolers are sneaking into their school bathrooms (well, only one has to do the sneaking) to have sex. See the ABC link from my last post and then 2.
13)Coed bathrooms would eliminate the sneaking element.
14)Making something easier to do typically makes more people want to do it more often.
These fourteen points of data aren't opinions, they are facts. From these facts we can assume thusly:
Since it is easier to have sex in bathrooms, kids will have sex more often. Please see 2.
There is my data. You assumed that because the OP posted this only in regards to transsexuals that it was the only facet of the argument. Just because I am against Co-ed bathrooms does NOT mean I am against transsexuals (if that was not made clear with my last post, yes I do donate monthly to the HRC for equality).
Please look at this, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. The basic need given by bathrooms is providing a place to empty one's bowels. Reproduction is a basic need as it fulfills the need to continue the species. My argument falls at the safety (as far as rape) and basic (as far as teen pregnancy due to the medical needs of the female and the possible survival of the child, should it be brought to term). The transsexual aspect of the coed bathrooms hits at social and esteem needs. Taking out the bottom of the pyramid makes it collapse. Self realization matters later if one doesn't have the other portions to keep it stabilized.
You also seem to magically assume that coed bathrooms will instantly make everyone accept transsexuals as equals. That's like assuming that the South after the American civil war accepted their ex-slaves as equals when they actually saw them as slaves. That's like assuming that after Seneca Falls that women would instantly earn the same amount of money as a man would for the same job when that still is not true the majority of places. Like assuming that there would be no more homophobia in the United States after gay marriage was legalized all over the country when it is still very much present (just check /b/). Again as I said in my last post, the public needs to be educated, as education lessens the fear which is the premise for phobias (example: homophobia).
Wow you put a lot of words in my mouth. I didn't assume anything about the OP. I actually have no opinion on the matter but I don't believe that teen pregnancy involves bathrooms (coed or not) at a statistically relevant rate. All I want if you you to base your argument on data instead of assumptions. You cite the mile high club for your argument, how often do you think people are having sex in airplane bathrooms? Do you honestly think that is something that happens often? If you want to use sex in bathrooms in your argument then back it up go back to the drawing board. That is not too much to ask, is it?
Seriously where do you get on telling me what I assume when all I ask is that you prove your argument is not based on assumptions?
@dox: I'm not posting the main link for what I found because I don't want to be banned. I will however tell you how to find it.
Go to Bing and type in sex in bathrooms. The first recommended result is sex in middle schools. Searching for that brings up videos with content warning from news sources. Oh and since they are not OLD enough to buy contraception, please tell provide ME with statistics of whether not they bother to even procure any bit of contraception.
Otherwise: abcnews says this: "Students told us that some kids are having sex in school bathrooms and hallways — even in classrooms. " and also "The kids' definitions were different. They were a bit closer to President Clinton's definition. They said petting or touching wasn't sex. Oral sex wasn't sex. " This article covered things in Oklahoma and even Maryland. Also people are asking about having sex in bathrooms already, like on yahoo answers.
Yes, I said it: intercourse in bathrooms IS already happening, even in middle school. To the people who wish to step forward and claim "then why does it even matter if it is already happening?" I ask you this: there has been a string of break-ins throughout your community, should you unlock all your doors and open all of your windows, or should you make your house even more secure and/or a less savory target?" Making all middle school and high school bathrooms co-ed would only make the problem worse than it already is. I agree cameras are not the answer, but even having a supervisor who identifies as the proper gender for said gender bathroom goes in to wash his/her hands in the bathroom every thirty or so minutes is often enough presence and presence alone to intimidate would-be-trouble-makers from their possibly less savory actions (many fast food restaurants actually have their (co)managers do exactly this to cut down on vandalism).
Dox, I get that the OP wants transsexual people to be more comfortable and I respect that. I want them to be comfortable too, but this is not the proper course of action. The human race as whole is currently too primitive for widespread co-ed public bathrooms. As transsexuals are tied in with the LGBT community, they should probably look to the big names and organizations, such as the HRC, to run similar campaigns that were run to cut down on homosexuality hate (such as the "'That's so Gay?' Well, Ashley, how would you like it if someone did something lame and someone next to you and said 'OMG, that is SO Ashley'?" commercial).
Ru(e)? Paul's Drag Race and Modern Family are just some examples of shows that are doing a great job of keeping the LBGT community in the public eye and educating the masses about their existence and the fact that they are people too with wants, desires, strengths, weaknesses, and most importantly: feelings. Opening up co-ed bathrooms will NOT make transsexuals feel any less persecuted in places such as Mississippi, where they recently passed a bill that essentially says "One may deny access, service, or sale to anyone for any reason, as long as it isn't racial".
If you can't find data to support you claim then you cannot use that claim in your argument. If there is no data to suggest that sex in bathrooms is statistically relevant to teen pregnancy rates then you can't bring up teen pregnancy rates in your argument against gender neutral bathrooms. Don't just assume something happens then base your argument off of it please.
All right the next person who brings up teen pregnancy from sex in bathrooms needs to accompany it with hard data proving that sex in bathrooms is statistically relevant to teen pregnancy rates because I am very unconvinced that it is a real culprit in this issue at all.
For the teen preggo issue, I turn to the case of alcohol related crimes and bs in America vs Europe. (*disclaimer, I'm american so am just saying what we think happens and what my cousins in europe say happens). Europe has much less of a stigma on alcohol, and a much lower issue with teens and alcohol vs America where there is tons of crazy ***** happening due to it.
You open up unisex bathrooms for teens, and you'll likely have a culture of kids that see sex as less of a boogeyman or temptation, and more of something that happens between two people with consent.
There is a lot more to the difference between American and European alcohol crime rates than that and it does not create anything close to an adequate analogy to teen pregnancy rates. Teens don't have sex in bathrooms because of some sort of forbidden fruit stigma (I'm still not convinced that school bathroom contribute more to teen pregnancy than other locations like bedrooms for example since no one has once shown data to indicate that bathrooms should more of a worry than other places to have sex) they do it because they have sex drives and spend time close to the opposite sex at school. There is a pretty short list of places to satisfy one's sex drive at a school and that list includes bathrooms.
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Can you provide proof that non trans people are at risk of assault in restrooms from trans people? If not then phobias if trans people are entirely unfounded.
And please stop making assumptions about me/ my personal life/ my personal opinions when that information has not been given.
Seriously where do you get on telling me what I assume when all I ask is that you prove your argument is not based on assumptions?