MTG Salvation

Quote from BloodyRabbit_01 »

[...]Shouldn't we get to have a real primer, instead of the actual "compendium" of cards in the opening page? I think this could be beneficial for the community, as most of the lists proposed are old. We're already past the Finks/RestoAngel era.

Of course, I'm by no means denigrating wpgstevo@'s work, and I thank him for opening the thread. But, personally speaking, I'd like to have a better insight of strategy/variations/lists/match-ups in the primer.[...]

I mentioned in a recent previous post that I intended to do an update, and asked for suggestions. In fact, I've asked for suggestions for the OP a number of times and never received a single one. If you have formatting suggestions, I'm all ears. Lets take suggestions to PMs though, so that the thread isn't about how the OP should look.

edit: Note almost all the cards listed in the OP have been taken directly from lists with results, along with some others that have been attempted at various times (Thopter/sword, for instance).

If you have suggestions on updating the OP, I'd like input! Send me some PMs!

Agree to disagree. I don't believe that marginal case (and those of that sort) are worth giving up all the value in dead mana leaks. This preference might be due to the fact that I am running the full 4 ancestral vision, so I have less tolerance for dead draws? Mana leak has been tried repeatedly and repeatedly cut, having played the archtype for a couple years now. /shrug. I understand why people value it, I just see more value in cashing in those mana leaks for negates.

And if they drew Scapeshift instead of Primeval Titan, you lose the game on the spot if Negate is Mana leak instead. If they draw the titan and you have negate, you can still survive and path the titan, tec edge the valakuts, etc.

Scapeshift is a much more dangerous card in the matchup. It is positive without mana leak - at least from my own experience.

Quote from BloodyRabbit_01 »

@wpgstevo

Running 3 Negate and 0 Leak means folding to Primeval Titan and Vizier CoCo most of the time. Nobody likes the fact that Leak is dead in the late-game, but you can't actually play only non-creature-counterspells in your list (Cryptic is too slow for this purpose).

I agree the list is a bit weaker to primetime, but I hardly see how coco/chord isn't better answered by negate than mana leak. The deck has a positive matchup against scapeshift/titanshift, so I'm not looking to play some cards that will be dead late. On the other hand, if they hit 7 land and cast scapeshift, that mana leak is embarrassing. Moreover, a resolved titan is easier to deal with than a resolved scapeshift. No, scapeshift is an example matchup where negate > mana leak.

I really do not value the theoretical creature-countering aspect of MAna leak not only because it is a soft counter and dead late, but also because Cavern of Souls/Aether Vial embarrasses the card too readily.

I have not really played a whole lot recently, and my presence here has been down a bit. Always interesting to read what other people are playing.

I'm going to update the OP, and would like suggestions if anyone has them.

A couple weeks ago I played a small ~20 player event with UW control, losing in the finals after a 4 round + top4. Matches went Storm 2-0, Affinity 2-0, Scapeshift 2-1, Burn 2-1. Top 4 I beat Grixis Shadow 2-1 before losing the rematch to the scapeshift player 1-2. Super fun deck that is well positioned it seems.

I didn't get on board with md Spreading Seas for a long time, but it's hard to argue with results.



Interesting to hear Supreme Will being a card - I dislike mana leak so much that I refuse to play it over negate. I guess having exactly one in your hand might not be so awful for the digging, but it really looks bad. That card will have to appear in a top32 paper event before I get on board :).

What other cards are people liking in the meta right now? I didn't play runed halo, but that still seems pretty well positioned.

Maybe my impression of the combo matchups is coloured by the fact that I have used Myth Realized prior to brewing with amonkhet's Gideon of the Trials and As Foretold? I had abandoned the omens/finks/resto plan a long time ago when it became clear it could not answer combo decks.

I'm going to continue to hate on Wall of Omens as being an (un?)necessary evil for aggro metas that should be abandoned as soon as possible. I don't want to belabour the point, but it is just so weak against tron, ad naus, storm, lantern, eggs, etc that I just can't accept it as strategically sound.

Happy brewing everyone, I'm just one brewer amongst many. Cheers.

Interesting statements, since I think it's fairly well established that previous metas had more faster aggro decks, like the old DSA, Infect and Suicide Bloo in addition to those you're listing.

A)You're right, I should not have characterized it as "dead". I wouldn't really tap out against Ad nauseam, Storm, tron, scapeshift etc to play it, but technically you are able to cast it. Against those decks, the card will either sit in your hand, or encourage you to tap low and reduce the interaction you have for their combo.

B)I agree UW control plays lots of dead cards versus combo, but that is a rationale for trying to avoid as many of them as possible, not an argument for its inclusion.

C)Yep, no one is arguing that we should play those cards now. My argument is that Omens should be avoided for the same reasons that finks and resto are avoided now - and we don't even have the resto value to help justify it.

D)The meta does have aggro in it, but the aggro is not as fast and is showing depressed representation from previous years. The meta information there is a bit dated, and has shifted towards a mid-range meta.

I find it unclear as to why you think combo decks are bad matchups. Ad nauseam is fairly easy with UW control as they have few action spells: just counter ad nauseam. How many copies of Pact of Negation do you think they can find before you just negate / cryptic them out of the game? I always find it odd when people claim ad nauseam has a great UW control matchup. Never lost that one. Storm is pretty much just as easy since they must keep one of their creatures in play or resolve a past in flames to win.

I mean yes, if you run next to no counter magic and your whole deck is geared to fight only creatures, then spell based combo matchups are hard. But that is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that Wall of Omens should be avoided whenever possible. It certainly is good versus aggro, no question!

I just want to show some support for the concept that Wall of omens is a card we should all be trying very hard not to play in the maindeck (and therefore not in the 75). While the card does have value in some matchups, the fact that it is completely dead in some like Scapeshift, Ad Nauseam, Storm, etc illustrates why it is a card we should be trying to avoid.

Where previous years' metas were characterized by tons of aggro, finks/omens/resto were used to warp the deck to fight them. But those cards all leave you vulnerable to combo decks, and at this point wall of omens is the last vestige of this warping of UW control to fight linear aggro.

In other news, I'm going to update the primer next after the double GP weekend at the end of the month. If anyone has suggestions on improvements or decklists to feature in the OP, please send me a PM (don't want to clog up the thread with housekeeping stuff).

I agree, the rationale for disqualifying a card should be articulated.

Scour the Laboratory is unplayable simply because Concentrate/ Think Twice exists at no deckbuilding cost, and Pull from tomorrow / Sphinx's revelation are much better in the mid-late game.

Moreover, Ancestral Vision is a card. If you don't like how it plays in the mid-late game, we have As Foretold to cast your visions immediately.

Essentially Scour requires too much work for too little payoff. The fact that you make yourself vulnerable to (perhaps your own) graveyard hate is just the final nail.

Ancestral Vision >>> Scour the Laboratory.

No As Foretold? I think it's still worth playing even without Restore Balance. In my updated list, I'm trying to extract more value with Jace, Telepath Unbound to double dip the ancestrals.

I don't see how you can simultaneously claim that "New godeon cannot close game fast" but " Finks [...] can give a fast beatdown to the opponent". That is incoherent given that new gideon has more power than finks...

And yes, Finks definitely works better with resto. Giving up that interaction is definitely a price - but the deck has been moving away from finks before new gideon anyways.

I think Censor is an upgrade in the slot you might use for Mana leak, if you want a card that is a broad reactive answer early.

Gideon is a maindeck card or a SB card against aggressive decks. I can't see ever bringing it in specifically for ramp matchups. Compare Gideon of the Trials to Kitchen Finks. Gideon's +1 is similar to the ETB lifegain, and gideon is much harder to remove (except with abrupt decay). Gideon also hits harder, and works better with Supreme Verdict.

Kitchen finks has long been a maindeck staple card not because it's particularly good against ramp, but because it is very good against aggro and from behind, while still being a good threat to play out when not under pressure. Gideon of the Trials, imo, is an upgrade to the Kitchen Finks card slot.

GoST is much better from the board as a threat, no doubt. But then I'd never even think of putting finks in the board with the idea of bringing it in against ramp. If you consider Gideon of the Trials to be an upgraded finks for our purposes, I think that gives you a better idea of how to use it.

I don't know that you do really want to see it early every game. Especially on the draw, many games you'll be fighting to stay alive, finding 3 spare mana to draw 3 cards (or do nothing at all) isn't a given. If you are going to be casting restore balance, then you can justify As Foretold 2-4 since it casts more spells. Without restore balance, 1-2 seems right.

I think Dassul has a point. I've been considering playing 1-2 as foretold alongside 4 ancestral vision and 1 jace, vryn's prodigy. Without a heavy dive into Restore Balance builds, I don't feel comfortable with 3 as foretold since the second one has much lower value. Jace, Vryn's prodigy // Jace, Telepath Unbound gives As foretold a huge increase in value by letting you cast ancestral vision from your graveyard. Of course, running a creature that dies to every removal spell in the format is suspect in a list otherwise devoid of targets.

I have also been off non-hard counters before Censor came along. Mana leak being dead in your hand late is just too high of a cost for me to run it, which is why Censor is decent in the spot you'd want mana leak for. It's just a tool to keep opponents off-curve. If they keep themselves off-curve, I can cycle it to draw into cryptics/logic knot/negate for mid-late game countering.

Note that against creature decks, removal would probably be better. But we have to deal with combo as well, so I want the flexibility in the opening 60, even if more direct answers come in from the SB for games 2/3. There is also non-zero value to showing the card game 1 and bringing them out in the SB games.