Great build tarotplz! It seems almost perfectly optimized for what you're trying to do. Let us know what you think of dropping Spectral. It seems that some of us reverted to 2-3 copies (even while running 3-4 colorless lands), while some of us don't miss it at all.
I realize the Auriok synergy with bitterblossom, but post-SB vs grindy-ish creature opponents I foresee myself SB'ing in something else. My vs Death's shadow matchup was always so favored in my RtA deck. Doesnt it still seem pretty favorable w/ control? I do see anger of the gods in my meta. I'm going to think about this more.
Death's Shadow is one of our best matchups. Personally, I have a better record against Grixis Death's Shadow than against any other Tiered deck. It's one of those matchups that's hard to lose, but it doesn't mean that it's not still advantageous for us to board in a few strong cards. Personally, I move in Auriok and Spellbomb.
Has anyone playtested Liliana of the Veil and disliked her and taken her back out of the control build?
Speaking for the five players (myself included) I have been following for the past year who run Liliana of the Veil... emphatically no. She is fantastic as a 2-of. Liliana, the Last Hope is also great in the sideboard on a side note.
Slaughter the Strong just replaces Wrath or Damnation as a one sided wipe then?
That is the intended use, but it is not always a complete wipe of the opponent's board, and played as a late game topdeck, it can take some of our tokens with it when it resolves. It occupies the same sideboard slots as traditional wraths and cards like Flaying Tendrils, but there are trade-offs compared to those. It is a very strong card against a variety of decks from Bogles to tribal aggro (Merfolk, Humans, etc.) to midrange (GBx decks and Shadow decks) to Eldrazi Tron. It's not going to save you from Elves though, and it's not especially good against Mardu Pyro. Pros and Cons.
That is a very well thought-out analysis diateone. I have been evaluating the topic myself, and I have decided to start with this 15. The list is influenced to some extent by local meta considerations, but I suspect it will perform well in the overall competitive meta as well:
This is a solid aggro shell, and definitely an improvement over your earlier list. Obviously Marsh Flats would improve your land base, but all things considered, this is totally viable and I would expect it to perform well (assuming you also have a well-designed sideboard). Keep it up
P.S. Don't bother putting Tidehollow Sculler in your 75. At this point, there is no good reason to run any creature other than Auriok Champion in a B/W Tokens deck. There are much better options that aren't spot removal magnets. If you want more disruption, try Collective Brutality. It's also a silver bullet against Burn.
Hello guys! After almost a year I am back on tokens to face this new Jace and Elf meta! I started testing this list. I took the base from a guy who brought to recent GP Lyon with a decent result (for being a tier3 especially) and I changed some parts!
I did a bunch of testing with this list, and I have to say that I'm impressed. I was admittedly a little skeptical at first, but this setup does a lot of things well. It's as fast as traditional aggressive builds, but packs almost as much disruption and removal as the top control-focused Tokens lists. Little Gideon is perhaps the weakest card in the mainboard, but he works, and works well at that, which I think stands as a testament to how much synergy this deck has and how well balanced it is.
that is actually something I have been strongly considering lately. Would love to hear some arguments in any case but I can imagine that the un-bans are quite a heavy point in this discussion, arent they? I see you play 3/3, and I think that is something I would like to try at some point.
I'm actually running 4/2 in favor of Thoughtseize now. The link in my signature is outdated. Here is my current build:
Oh and to paraphrase dhamlin, "Thoughtseize is gonna be really important for the next few weeks. UWx Jace, Jund, Shift, and Tron are all going to spike. Its relevance is not only for Jace and BBE, but also for the decks that will see increased presence in response to the unbannings, as well as for the cards that will increase in proportion to the greater prevalence of UWx Jace decks, like Cryptic and Verdict".
If fast aggro/combo decks pick up more of the metagame share in coming weeks, I'll probably switch back to 3/3 though. 4x Thoughtseize + 4x Bitterblossom is a lot of life-loss, but it's not as relevant as the value of those cards in the current metagame at the moment IMO.
Hey diateone -- why are you only running 2x Thoughtseize? I have heard some pretty compelling arguments recently for why it is a stronger card than IoK in the current meta.
I certainly like the idea. I'm still sceptical regarding Field of Ruin. 2 and tap seems very clunky, that takes up an entire turn in the early-mid game...
Do some other people have thoughts on this matter that they want to share?
Overall I think going only for the cheaper token creators might be a pretty effective way to make the deck faster while retaining BB's persistence.
Here's what it boils down to IMO. Field of Ruin is great for reactive decks that play at instant speed like U/W Control. It's a no-brainer upgrade over Ghost Quarter for them.
It's even a great card for decks that both are little more reactive than our decks and have a lower curve. The best example of this is G/B Rock which can devote more resources to the Field of Ruin's mana cost, earlier in the game. They can consistently pull off Turn 2 Threat, followed by activate Field of Ruin AND play Spot Removal / Hand Disruption on Turn 3.
Meanwhile, with Tokens, we pretty consistently want to be playing a token producer on Turn 3, and consequently, the opportunity cost of activating Field of Ruin on that turn is high. If we're holding Sorin or Gideon, it's generally also high when we have our fourth land drop. Even without them, Field of Ruin potentially costs us tempo. With four lands on the battlefield, if one of them is GQ, we can crack it and play a token producer. If one of the four is Field, the only thing we can do in addition to activating it is play a 1-mana removal or disruption spell.
The question in my mind then becomes where do you draw the value line between the relative card and tempo advantages of Field vs. GQ. Because most of our builds run ~10-11 three-drops, 3-4 four drops, and more or less want to be playing on curve when possible, I think the relative value advantage leans towards GQ. Contrast this with G/B Rock, which runs 6-8 three-drops, no four drops, deploys its threats earlier, and runs the same amount of land as we do, allowing additional flexibility with its mana. Advantage for them: Field of Ruin.
You could make a Tokens build that would strictly favor Field. If you threw together 4x Legion's Landing, 4x Raise the Alarm, 4x Bitterblossom, ran 8x disruption, 8x removal, topped your curve with a few 3-drop token producers, a pair of Sorins, and kept the land count high, then sure, you would have the flexibility to efficiently take advantage of Field of Ruin. But with very few exceptions, we don't build our decks that way.
Anyways, maybe there's some other factor I'm missing, but from what I can tell, that pretty much encompasses the fundamentals behind where Field is or is not preferred.
There's just one thing you must do. Swap out that freaking Shefet Dunes for Vault lol
Did you try the card? It's actually not that bad a land and actually helped me push for two games already. it's a counterspell-proof way to buff your team and it also can produces white, something Vault of the archangel can't do.
My build is less aggressive than yours (Bitterblossom playset, Lilianas, etc.) so the prospect of a one time creature buff for four mana and a sacrificed land was too far outside of my expected gameplan to merit testing IMO. Kudos if it works for you though!
Quote from MisterMuffin21 »
Vault as been part of my list in the very recent pase, but Guost quarter is gonna be very important now that Tron is gonna get more play in the new meta and I don't want to play more than two non-white sources, especially in a 22 land build.
I agree that the relative value of Guost Quarter is going to increase further. For that matter, it has already been steadily increasing for some time. Have you had a chance to see how good it is in the Humans matchup? After you have fired off one Path, your GQ's become Strip Mines. I think you are overestimating the danger of running multiple colorless lands though. I'm running 3x Spectral + 2x Liliana and I rarely encounter problems running 3 colorless lands. dhamlin is running 4x GQ + Vault now (with great results, I might add). Ivan, whose deck was featured on Channel Fireball, also runs 4x GQ (and a Field of Ruin!)... alongside 3x Spectral Procession. The point is, you shouldn't be worried about running two colorless lands, even with a 22 land build.
MisterMuffin21 -- You're running Baubles!? Didn't you used to hate Baubles? Like with a fiery passion?
It's an interesting build at any rate. With 9 disruption spells in your 75 (equivalent to nearly 10 if you think about it as a 56 card deck), and a strong graveyard hate package, I bet Storm players hate you haha.
There's just one thing you must do. Swap out that freaking Shefet Dunes for Vault lol
^Yeah, same here. Running playsets of Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom along with 9 fetches (well, about to drop one for another Ghost Quarter) is a painful setup. Maybe the most painful non-Shadow deck out there? (not including Grishoalbrand )
Granted, we do run a lot of lifegain to compensate. Enough that I personally don't think that mainboard Auriok Champion is necessary-- potentially reasonable-- sure. But not essential.
Personally, I have 3x Sorin, 2x Vent, 2x Vault, 1x Collective Brutality, and 1x Vampiric Rites in the mainboard, and a second CB along with the two Auriok Champions (that I just swapped in place of Timely Reinforcements) in the sideboard. It usually works out fine. Burn certainly doesn't fair well against it.
Thanks for the detailed responses by the way. And MisterMuffin21, I do know two players who run Legions alongside Bitterblossom, and apparently they do play well together.
Given the recent meta shifts, is their any argument for running sideboard Timely Reinforcements over Auriok Champion any more, or is the latter card indisputably the better choice?
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Death's Shadow is one of our best matchups. Personally, I have a better record against Grixis Death's Shadow than against any other Tiered deck. It's one of those matchups that's hard to lose, but it doesn't mean that it's not still advantageous for us to board in a few strong cards. Personally, I move in Auriok and Spellbomb.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Speaking for the five players (myself included) I have been following for the past year who run Liliana of the Veil... emphatically no. She is fantastic as a 2-of. Liliana, the Last Hope is also great in the sideboard on a side note.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
That is the intended use, but it is not always a complete wipe of the opponent's board, and played as a late game topdeck, it can take some of our tokens with it when it resolves. It occupies the same sideboard slots as traditional wraths and cards like Flaying Tendrils, but there are trade-offs compared to those. It is a very strong card against a variety of decks from Bogles to tribal aggro (Merfolk, Humans, etc.) to midrange (GBx decks and Shadow decks) to Eldrazi Tron. It's not going to save you from Elves though, and it's not especially good against Mardu Pyro. Pros and Cons.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Auriok Champion
2x Damping Sphere
1x Collective Brutality
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Slaughter the Strong
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
This is a solid aggro shell, and definitely an improvement over your earlier list. Obviously Marsh Flats would improve your land base, but all things considered, this is totally viable and I would expect it to perform well (assuming you also have a well-designed sideboard). Keep it up
P.S. Don't bother putting Tidehollow Sculler in your 75. At this point, there is no good reason to run any creature other than Auriok Champion in a B/W Tokens deck. There are much better options that aren't spot removal magnets. If you want more disruption, try Collective Brutality. It's also a silver bullet against Burn.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Just for simplicity, I used the same sideboard that I do with my primary build:
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Auriok Champion
1x Collective Brutality
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
2x Slaughter the Strong
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vampiric Rites
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
I did a bunch of testing with this list, and I have to say that I'm impressed. I was admittedly a little skeptical at first, but this setup does a lot of things well. It's as fast as traditional aggressive builds, but packs almost as much disruption and removal as the top control-focused Tokens lists. Little Gideon is perhaps the weakest card in the mainboard, but he works, and works well at that, which I think stands as a testament to how much synergy this deck has and how well balanced it is.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
I'm actually running 4/2 in favor of Thoughtseize now. The link in my signature is outdated. Here is my current build:
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
2x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windswept Heath
Sorcery
1x Collective Brutality
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
2x Spectral Procession
4x Thoughtseize
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
2x Start / Finish
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Enchantment
4x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Auriok Champion
1x Collective Brutality
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
2x Slaughter the Strong
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vampiric Rites
Oh and to paraphrase dhamlin, "Thoughtseize is gonna be really important for the next few weeks. UWx Jace, Jund, Shift, and Tron are all going to spike. Its relevance is not only for Jace and BBE, but also for the decks that will see increased presence in response to the unbannings, as well as for the cards that will increase in proportion to the greater prevalence of UWx Jace decks, like Cryptic and Verdict".
If fast aggro/combo decks pick up more of the metagame share in coming weeks, I'll probably switch back to 3/3 though. 4x Thoughtseize + 4x Bitterblossom is a lot of life-loss, but it's not as relevant as the value of those cards in the current metagame at the moment IMO.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
----------------------------------
Hey diateone -- why are you only running 2x Thoughtseize? I have heard some pretty compelling arguments recently for why it is a stronger card than IoK in the current meta.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Here's what it boils down to IMO. Field of Ruin is great for reactive decks that play at instant speed like U/W Control. It's a no-brainer upgrade over Ghost Quarter for them.
It's even a great card for decks that both are little more reactive than our decks and have a lower curve. The best example of this is G/B Rock which can devote more resources to the Field of Ruin's mana cost, earlier in the game. They can consistently pull off Turn 2 Threat, followed by activate Field of Ruin AND play Spot Removal / Hand Disruption on Turn 3.
Meanwhile, with Tokens, we pretty consistently want to be playing a token producer on Turn 3, and consequently, the opportunity cost of activating Field of Ruin on that turn is high. If we're holding Sorin or Gideon, it's generally also high when we have our fourth land drop. Even without them, Field of Ruin potentially costs us tempo. With four lands on the battlefield, if one of them is GQ, we can crack it and play a token producer. If one of the four is Field, the only thing we can do in addition to activating it is play a 1-mana removal or disruption spell.
The question in my mind then becomes where do you draw the value line between the relative card and tempo advantages of Field vs. GQ. Because most of our builds run ~10-11 three-drops, 3-4 four drops, and more or less want to be playing on curve when possible, I think the relative value advantage leans towards GQ. Contrast this with G/B Rock, which runs 6-8 three-drops, no four drops, deploys its threats earlier, and runs the same amount of land as we do, allowing additional flexibility with its mana. Advantage for them: Field of Ruin.
You could make a Tokens build that would strictly favor Field. If you threw together 4x Legion's Landing, 4x Raise the Alarm, 4x Bitterblossom, ran 8x disruption, 8x removal, topped your curve with a few 3-drop token producers, a pair of Sorins, and kept the land count high, then sure, you would have the flexibility to efficiently take advantage of Field of Ruin. But with very few exceptions, we don't build our decks that way.
Anyways, maybe there's some other factor I'm missing, but from what I can tell, that pretty much encompasses the fundamentals behind where Field is or is not preferred.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
It's an interesting build at any rate. With 9 disruption spells in your 75 (equivalent to nearly 10 if you think about it as a 56 card deck), and a strong graveyard hate package, I bet Storm players hate you haha.
There's just one thing you must do. Swap out that freaking Shefet Dunes for Vault lol
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Granted, we do run a lot of lifegain to compensate. Enough that I personally don't think that mainboard Auriok Champion is necessary-- potentially reasonable-- sure. But not essential.
Personally, I have 3x Sorin, 2x Vent, 2x Vault, 1x Collective Brutality, and 1x Vampiric Rites in the mainboard, and a second CB along with the two Auriok Champions (that I just swapped in place of Timely Reinforcements) in the sideboard. It usually works out fine. Burn certainly doesn't fair well against it.
Thanks for the detailed responses by the way. And MisterMuffin21, I do know two players who run Legions alongside Bitterblossom, and apparently they do play well together.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow