I've been eyeballing this deck, but isn't there a fear of it being banned out due to a sudden win-from-nowhere, much like Twin was?
I doubt it ever will, at least not before Nahiri get the axe though I hope she won't (I plays Jeskai harbinger deck too).
Knightfall combo could too easily be disrupted even compared to the Nahiri combo. Most of the game are won purely with knight beating down.
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Westvale is alternative win-con for bad draw? With so many dork, chances of drawing multiple and not getting your other creature is high and you could float all those mana from dork and sack them to easily flip it..
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I've got a small but high prize local tournament coming up in a few weeks (think like Worlds or the SCG PC but on a much smaller local level) and this deck is definitely on my short list of things to play. It does pretty much everything I'm looking to do in the format which is cast efficient 1 mana removal, edicts, slam Geist, play big creatures, threaten combo wins out of nowhere, and offer an above average ability to play some one of's (I very highly value putting the fear of the unknown 1 of into my opponent in these types of events... and word spreads across the room quickly).
In the videos I've watched I like the way the Zoo variant plays, it's aggressive and gets a lot of extra percentage points from unknown information. For example, if your opponent kills the Goyf they have to risk your KotR killing them, but if they don't kill the Goyf it's going to kill them eventually. I like having diverse threats like that.
When I've tried some sample lists online though before making my own I keep running into a problem that I didn't see in the decks video primers. The manabase is simply costing me games. It feels way too fragile as a 4c manabase but I don't see an alternative. If you want to pressure the opponent Nacatl puts you in red which also then lets you pick up Bolt for free, while Geist and the combo put you in blue. I haven't read this entire thread but I've read about the first 10 pages along with the last 30 and I haven't seen any manabase discussion at all other than on Sejiri Steppe and Kessig Wolf Run. It seems like people are just throwing some lands together and calling it done.
So, on that subject what have people thought about the various land counts? Collected Company really wants around 27 creatures and 3 CoCo (more on that below) brings you to 30 cards. 22 lands makes it 52 which leaves 8 other spells. That setup seems to interfere with the combo though. If there's only 8 other spell slots you have to sacrifice either removal or combo potential. Has anyone been able to work in Ghost Quarters or Horizon Canopy? What fetchland balance is optimal? Obviously some green fetches are good because all of the real T1 plays involve green mana but beyond that it becomes more of a question. Is Wooded Foothills really offering anything over Flooded Strand for example? Arid Mesa and Windswept Heath are clearly the best ones because they gets all 4 colors without having to run a Steam Vents, but is it right to be running say 4 Wooded Foothills over Misty Rainforest? Or even over Scalding Tarn?
Outside of the manabase when I build or tune decks I like figuring out a deck skeleton based on what breakdown for the various slots is optimal. That will take me awhile to decide on for this deck, but in the meantime I have some thoughts on the three drops that might be worth discussing.
With Collected Company, I've seen a lot of lists running 4 but I'm not so sure that's correct. I was playing with a bunch of percentages today in a spreadsheet and basically what I found was that the sweet spot between deck slots invested and consistency was at 3 copies of CoCo attempting to find 2 of's. This invested the minimum number of resources to have a reasonable change of finding the card. It seems to me that a lot of these lists are running more 3 drops than the format really allows you to run, so I think making a few trims here to get a better curve could improve lists as the ~13 3 drops definitely feels like too many.
For example the three/four drops could look like
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Collected Company
That cuts 2 slots without appreciably hurting the chance at a combo, which then frees up two slots further down the curve for either more aggression or protection.
To put this in perspective a 2 of with 3 CoCo's is as consistent as a 3 of without any CoCo and a 3 of with 3 CoCo's is as consistent as a 4 of without any. The pattern holds for 1 of's as well. Basically you can think of 3 CoCo as being worth +1 copy of every other creature in the deck. The 4th CoCo can push that further but because of how math works, the second CoCo has less impact than the first, and the third has less than the second, so really that final copy isn't very good. If people wish, I can post the spreadsheet I built on this stuff later.
On the topic of land, I have played both BANT version and Zoo version.
In BANT version you would want to have around 9 or 10 fetches and you will find it just nice while in zoo you could want as many as 12 fetches to consistently make nacatl a 3/3 on turn 2 if you drop her on turn one. It is also highly recommended from my experience that all fetches to be able at least fetch forest. Zoo compared to BANT are less affected by the life loss from fetches due to the amount of cheap but big threat which usually already drop opponent life too a much lower point before you combo out unlike BANT.
Usually in BANT you would run some number of birds of paradise so the need for red is not that important, a single stomping ground is more than enough to produce the red for wolf run.
Do note that BANT version is less afraid of a turn 3 blood moon compared to zoo as BANT tend to fetches basic for the 1st 3 turns while zoo usually fetches a shock for the 2nd land drop in order to make nacatl 3/3 which sometimes hurt your color to cast stuff you want to cast. And spreading seas hurts zoo more compared to BANT.
Anyway, all these are only my own experience so I'm not saying it's the same for everyone.
Recently I've been trying this build, Knightfall plus "bogles", what do you guys think? I'm thinking of increasing the number of Qasali and moving scavenging to the main but not sure what to remove. Not sure if Elspeth in the side is useful or not or if I should remove it but she with worship could win games.
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ok, so.......Oath of Nissa??? Reflector Mage?? Amiright??? Seems like the bant shell is getting better.
Oath of nissa might work in the midrange build as a pseudo serum vision, as for reflector mage I don't think it's good, if only he have flash then he would be good against merfolk.
Why do you specifically mention merfolk?
It's not like merfolk is a hard match for us, I would rather have reflector mage for goys, tasigurs, dwellers, wurmcoils, eidelons, primetimes, elesh norn, and many other hard hitters.
Merfolk is just a race.
Why do I can't specifically mention merfolk?
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ok, so.......Oath of Nissa??? Reflector Mage?? Amiright??? Seems like the bant shell is getting better.
Oath of nissa might work in the midrange build as a pseudo serum vision, as for reflector mage I don't think it's good, if only he have flash then he would be good against merfolk.
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Thanks for pointing me in the right direction and sharing your thoughts, folks! I think the place I agree with Borges the most is on Sejiri Steppe. I just don't see my opponent letting me untap with Knight in play when they have removal for it. The only other time Steppe will protect her is if you can't combo off to kill them, and then they topdeck removal on their next turn before you can finish them off the next turn. Sure, that situation will come up time to time, but compared to the games you lose by drawing a crappy CIP tapped W-only that's not a Plains (can't be sacced to Knight, can't be fetched off GQ/Path) more than make up for that fringe case. I can be persuaded otherwise, but so far I've never been happy with it.
I spent some time last night and this morning tooling a deck more along the Meddling Mage/Spellskite route. I definitely like some number of Chord of Calling in the deck, and I can see running MM/Skite maindeck depending on meta. My LGS is pretty combo-heavy so I imagine they'd pull their weight there. It seems like this version of the deck really sacrifices its beatdown power to play more of hatebears game, which means its more reliant on its combo (or just sticking Worship/Magus of the Moon, which are both amazing inclusions) to win. Which got me to thinking it would be great if we had a way of Chording out the other half of the combo. So… what about including 1 Overgrown Tomb, and running a single maindeck Zur the Enchanter? He whiffs CoCo, but it doesn't seem like he's too hard to Chord out at opponent's end step, and then he can grab Retreat.
Too cute? Or just cute enough?
If you are looking for something to search for enchantment, I would rather play idyllic tutor than splashing another color.
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I doubt it ever will, at least not before Nahiri get the axe though I hope she won't (I plays Jeskai harbinger deck too).
Knightfall combo could too easily be disrupted even compared to the Nahiri combo. Most of the game are won purely with knight beating down.
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Knight for sure..
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I would use thassa, making a big knight unblockable is good.
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What token hates do we have in our color?
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On the topic of land, I have played both BANT version and Zoo version.
In BANT version you would want to have around 9 or 10 fetches and you will find it just nice while in zoo you could want as many as 12 fetches to consistently make nacatl a 3/3 on turn 2 if you drop her on turn one. It is also highly recommended from my experience that all fetches to be able at least fetch forest. Zoo compared to BANT are less affected by the life loss from fetches due to the amount of cheap but big threat which usually already drop opponent life too a much lower point before you combo out unlike BANT.
Anyway this is the land I run for BANT:
2 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Stomping Ground (if only playing 9 fetches you can drop 1 flooded and increase temple garden)
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
Usually in BANT you would run some number of birds of paradise so the need for red is not that important, a single stomping ground is more than enough to produce the red for wolf run.
And this is the land I run for zoo:
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Arid Mesa
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
Do note that BANT version is less afraid of a turn 3 blood moon compared to zoo as BANT tend to fetches basic for the 1st 3 turns while zoo usually fetches a shock for the 2nd land drop in order to make nacatl 3/3 which sometimes hurt your color to cast stuff you want to cast. And spreading seas hurts zoo more compared to BANT.
Anyway, all these are only my own experience so I'm not saying it's the same for everyone.
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4 Birds of Paradise
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Boar Umbra
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Unflinching Courage
2 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Blood Moon
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stony Silence
I'm thinking of playing this when OGW is playable.. What do you guys think?
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2 Birds of Paradise
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Boar Umbra
1 Dromoka's Command
3 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Unflinching Courage
2 Flooded Strand
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
2 Worship
Recently I've been trying this build, Knightfall plus "bogles", what do you guys think? I'm thinking of increasing the number of Qasali and moving scavenging to the main but not sure what to remove. Not sure if Elspeth in the side is useful or not or if I should remove it but she with worship could win games.
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Why do I can't specifically mention merfolk?
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Oath of nissa might work in the midrange build as a pseudo serum vision, as for reflector mage I don't think it's good, if only he have flash then he would be good against merfolk.
TappedOut
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If you are looking for something to search for enchantment, I would rather play idyllic tutor than splashing another color.
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