Or maybe I've taken notes as to my board state in the attrition match ups I've lost in under a particular build (because I agree the card is trash in zoo, and may be even trash next to courser and doesn't belong after testing). Game 2 and 3, the combo is mediocre against box and you're depending on acceleration, exalted triggers and beat down. Once behind, I don't care about any of those cards except scooze (which more than 2 would feel clunky) or voice (which is lame against some gy hate that gets used against goyf and knight, as well as other exile effects some opponents show). I've already tried those things except for fleece (lol).
I didn't suggest the card because I think it would push the decks tier up, I suggested it because it's mediocre on its own early, OK next to exalted and (circumstantially) good if the game goes long. And since bgx will always be a thing, and I see a lot of it at certain spots, it's a consideration. After asking around, most people's bgx plan is to hope a scooze sticks with extra mana to invest or that a Geist can get some good swings in.
It's because I understand the deck and what I want to tune for that I can suggest a card that might be shxt The pros do counter intuitive things that are sometimes obviously bad, but they made practical observations; sometimes it works, most of the time it doesn't.
Again, not knocking your opinion, and you make good points about other things we could be doing. The whole point is to discuss to better understand the whys and why nots.
My opinion has always been that goyf doesn't belong and is underwhelming, and I make the same suggestions you just did as to cards I rather play. I've had a stable and what I feel is solid list for awhile with 2 Steppe Lynx, a Voice and a Pridemage over goyf (those lynx put in work btw and let me save some life when busting the combo).
The vigilance is useful because you can both prevent damage and exert pressure against fast aggro. Goyf comes out a 2/3, but he usually scales only to 3/4 when you need him to be a 4/5 (it's rare he hits 5/6). In mu's that go long you should be eating the yard (which shrinks your goyf) and opponents will play graveyard hate against us (which shrinks your goyf or render it useless). If you're running courser and stirring wild, it's common to sit at 6 lands, and a giant stirring wild sounds sick (play advocate into a stirring wild swing). He would be a 2-of, and can be filtered away with coco.
Don't get confused, I'm not trying to compare this card to goyf itself, I'm saying it's interesting to test, especially for anyone running stirring wild or courser. This has no relevance if you're on ZooFall, and goyf is superior there.
It's easy to netdeck and play what the next guy used to win without understanding the mechanics (not against you or anyone else), but I like to test cards when they come out. That's how the game evolves. PKN and Painful Truths are two good examples in the context of grixis. The same people who claimed the cards were trash now claim they're staples.
What do people think of Sylvan Advocate as a value beater that hits off Coco and is OK early but great late? I often see myself at 6 lands versus decks that exploit goyf and Tas. Goyf us underwhelming most of the time in this deck, and usually hits as a 2/3 or 3/4.. Sylvan fits the theme more, vigilance is relevant versus fast aggro, and the ability fits our shell. I'm not saying it's an auto include, but it seems to be a reasonable test option, as does Nissa's oath (for pilots on a split of retreat and elspeth, it digs 3 deep and can stabilize mana for a cost of 1 green, which is great, though I haven't done the math yet). Any thoughts?
True, I don't know if chalice works here, but in hatebears a chalice on one wrecks grixis and burn, shutting down almost a third of their decks. I didn't notice Scooze wasn't main deck though; that'd help the match a lot since there are usually a few creatures in the yard when he hits. Not counting the goyfs, I see about 6 spots you could use to make adjustments (3x Dromoka, 2 Finks, 1 Pridemage). I would move some value creatures into those spots and then that will free the sideboard up for some other hate-tech. Dromoka is good in standard, but for 6 mana the card is underwhelming in modern. The opponent will play whatever they were going to play in response to him, or just take care of him on their turn.
Stevo is right, we all like to try and be creative, but deck building ends up being about resource management. Some of the cards you didn't include look underwhelming on paper when you look at what other decks are doing, but they over perform within the context of this deck, I'd give them a try.
You beat grixis by removing clunky dromokas and playing some geist of saint traft and maybe 2 Smiters over 2 Finks. Chalice of the Void on 1 ruins their tempo as well until they draw into Kom, but shutting down visions and scour slows that down too.
Pridemage > Skite, but if the opponent has a Skite out just swing aggressive until it breaks. You can still pump Knight little by little and drain their life from Skite activations and beats.
I think the deck would be better off playing her rather than diluting our aggressive game plan to take care of her. The play is still weak to Kommand and can result in a tempo loss; I think we would need to run a couple dispels sideboard to protect it on turn 4 (this dispel can also protect the knightfall combo, requiring them to have mana for extra removal or a counter). So the dispel has some utility and can be played on curve.
The question becomes "what gets cut". Does she replace goyf in both variants, and we replace 2x Elspeth/Retreat with Sword/Batterskull.?
Also, each variation of twin has its own thread, but we discuss and compare all variations within the main UR twin because it helps players understand how to play the meta and why the subtleties of each play style pilots a little different.
Maybe cleaning up the primer a bit can help with confusion, but I don't see how trolling helps lol.
Bleh, there goes Forgetenders utility in the RG match sweet card though. I can see DromokaCom being important there.
I think that there's a little too much trolling on whether or not it's tier 2. Write a letter to a mod or something lol. I don't pay attention to tier rankings anyways; it's a horrible way of rating decks that turns into a popularity contest.
To be honest, I agree that there is a lack of consensus, but in my eyes the bant version is the only version. The zoo version is zoo with a combo splashed in; just like a temur aggro or grixis control deck with a few twin combo pieces isn't really a twin deck to me. I think that the "all-in" version has demonstrated to be consistent on a superficial level that requires more results, and that the decks 75 is pretty set (w/ 4 flex spots; 2 main, 2 side).
This deck should def be in developing but whatevs.
Can someone help me with a sideboard?
My local have lots of jund, affinity, gr tron, grixis/ur twin, burn, merfolk, grishoadbrand, polymorph, soul sister/bw token, and a few coco elves, storm and ad nauseam. There's also 2 players who plays 8 rack and lantern control. And also the mirror as knightfall getting more and more success..
Regarding the tarmo, I would say its inclusion just totally change my playing mindcept of the deck. From "beat down as much as possible then combo to win the game" to "Aggro Aggro explosive Aggro and have no needs to cares if there's any way to combo".. Cause if that I made a lot of changes that make me wonder if it can still be called knightfall after trying to make it even more explosive and cutting down the combo part of it:
I have even thoughts of totally remove retreat to either +1 path or +1 collected company, but even with only one retreat, the chance of even if it's only 1% of getting the combo going is very attractive..
The 3 Unflinching Courage was originally in there for trying it out but it ends up much more useful and winning more games than trying to combo..
I think you're seeing what a lot of us have. The zoo version of knight fall dilutes the zoo aggro game plan for an oops I win plan B. So as you try and optimize that deck you end up in a circle back at the standard zoo deck.
I think your match ups would improve with the hatebears version since every card I can name is pretty much already in that version of the deck, and the 75 has something that can pretty much answer almost all the decks you mentioned. I would take out the unflinching courage and play 2/2 retreat/elspeth split. Don't worry about interacting too much game 1. Race the opponent and use Elspeth and retreat to push damage through. If you accidentally combo, cool, if not, the game should be done turn 5 anyway.
I've been doing a bit of playtesting with honored hierarch in place of birds of paradise. My list runs four noble hierarch already, taking out the two BOP for a couple honored was easy. Results have been interesting. Honored is best as the first drop so you can get the reknown activated. It's a better beater than birds, not as consistent a mana source.
Has anyone else tinkered with the new dude?
I think you need to ask yourself why you're playing him. It seems to me that by the time you turn on his ramp, you probably already have it (or the mana you need). If you're playing him to have a cheap aggressive creature, there's better creatures that are either stronger or have more relevant abilities that don't require turning them on.
I've been running 2x Steppe Lynx. Works well if you combo off, gives you some explosive plays for 4+ damage, goes under bridge... I'm not saying he's the best card to slot up, but he's suited the role I want for him as my 2x pseudo-goyfs.
I think honored is slightly better than birds, but Dryad Military is also an option (shuts down the most played blue card Snap, his cousin Jace, and graveyard strategies), and some two-drops are good choices.. (maindeck some skites and open up 2 more sideboard slots).
I think all of what you said is fair. I think part of why run honored hierarch is just to say I did something other than birds, because BOP is so vanilla. I do notice that HH's ramp doesn't really start until turn three, which is when we'd go off with birds in play instead. So HH doesn't make the deck quicker, still dies to bolts, and isn't a guarantee to "flip".
On another note, there is a pretty interesting new creature, a total beater, but one that could be a nice sideboard option if you wanted to swap out of the combo to just smash, woodland wanderer. With the manabase I run, bant splashing red, it would be easy to drop a wanderer turn three as a 6/6. That stuffs gurmags all day long, and could even square up a wurmcoil.
I think Woodland Wanderer is ok as a budget option, but something that big should be able to protect itself or leave behind value in this kind of deck where we are already a little weak to 2-for-1s with the exception of coco and eternal witness, and maybe voice.
Huntsman is kind of meh since we rather race than be put into a grindy situation, and the lifegain and card advantage will probably be weak against the decks I'd want him against anyway.
My 4-drop beater choices for this deck are:
Wiltleaf liege: he can sneak onto the field free and is a deck anthem, especially for your dual colored creatures.
Resto angel: flash, can protect the combo or another creature, and is a resilient clock in the air. I like this card since our interactions can be weak.
Sigarda, host of herons: gives your opponent little room for interaction, shuts down Lilly, and can hit the field turn 3 against Path.
Thrun: Resilient, but you have to keep mana up, and he doesn't go over a lot of stuff anymore.
Chameleon Collosus: protection from black, so he handles Tas and Angler and most of the formats removal, and he can go over goyf with his ability. Gives you something to do with mana too I guess to close put the game.
I'm running Sigarda, but I'm still trying to figure out the bad match ups and how I want to handle them.
Edit:
(And I'd probably 3/2 coco/chord if I were on chord, though I don't think it's necessary)
I think it's an awesome card and was trying to figure out how to break it, but idk.. it could be useful for bouncing Sejiri along with the trample. I think it competes with elspeth, who I prefer anyway since it makes the dorks better and protects itself.
But, I think it'd be sexy next to Azusa in a BloomTitan build with a red splash. It's super aggro even if you don't hit Titan and you can protect your lands in response to destro effects. It also gives a threat resilient to bloodmoon for when you're waiting on your second forest (assuming you play a second in the side).
I'm hoping the new set gives us a super aggro one drop with some sort of useful trigger or static ability.
I've been doing a bit of playtesting with honored hierarch in place of birds of paradise. My list runs four noble hierarch already, taking out the two BOP for a couple honored was easy. Results have been interesting. Honored is best as the first drop so you can get the reknown activated. It's a better beater than birds, not as consistent a mana source.
Has anyone else tinkered with the new dude?
I think you need to ask yourself why you're playing him. It seems to me that by the time you turn on his ramp, you probably already have it (or the mana you need). If you're playing him to have a cheap aggressive creature, there's better creatures that are either stronger or have more relevant abilities that don't require turning them on.
I've been running 2x Steppe Lynx. Works well if you combo off, gives you some explosive plays for 4+ damage, goes under bridge... I'm not saying he's the best card to slot up, but he's suited the role I want for him as my 2x pseudo-goyfs.
I think honored is slightly better than birds, but Dryad Military is also an option (shuts down the most played blue card Snap, his cousin Jace, and graveyard strategies), and some two-drops are good choices.. (maindeck some skites and open up 2 more sideboard slots).
I didn't see my pridemages in those games. They would help a bit vs. the sunburst rock and lotus bloom. They would help a lot vs. Phyrexian Unlife too. I was hoping to hit them off CoCo for that reason. They can still win with Angel's Grace too though. That player did have his 1-of Slaughter Pact vs my T3 combo on the play. That saved him one match!
One thing I've learned is that sometimes you want to mulligan an OK hand for a hand that has what you need against decks like that. It def sounds like meddling mage can put in work there.
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I didn't suggest the card because I think it would push the decks tier up, I suggested it because it's mediocre on its own early, OK next to exalted and (circumstantially) good if the game goes long. And since bgx will always be a thing, and I see a lot of it at certain spots, it's a consideration. After asking around, most people's bgx plan is to hope a scooze sticks with extra mana to invest or that a Geist can get some good swings in.
It's because I understand the deck and what I want to tune for that I can suggest a card that might be shxt The pros do counter intuitive things that are sometimes obviously bad, but they made practical observations; sometimes it works, most of the time it doesn't.
Again, not knocking your opinion, and you make good points about other things we could be doing. The whole point is to discuss to better understand the whys and why nots.
The vigilance is useful because you can both prevent damage and exert pressure against fast aggro. Goyf comes out a 2/3, but he usually scales only to 3/4 when you need him to be a 4/5 (it's rare he hits 5/6). In mu's that go long you should be eating the yard (which shrinks your goyf) and opponents will play graveyard hate against us (which shrinks your goyf or render it useless). If you're running courser and stirring wild, it's common to sit at 6 lands, and a giant stirring wild sounds sick (play advocate into a stirring wild swing). He would be a 2-of, and can be filtered away with coco.
Don't get confused, I'm not trying to compare this card to goyf itself, I'm saying it's interesting to test, especially for anyone running stirring wild or courser. This has no relevance if you're on ZooFall, and goyf is superior there.
It's easy to netdeck and play what the next guy used to win without understanding the mechanics (not against you or anyone else), but I like to test cards when they come out. That's how the game evolves. PKN and Painful Truths are two good examples in the context of grixis. The same people who claimed the cards were trash now claim they're staples.
Stevo is right, we all like to try and be creative, but deck building ends up being about resource management. Some of the cards you didn't include look underwhelming on paper when you look at what other decks are doing, but they over perform within the context of this deck, I'd give them a try.
Pridemage > Skite, but if the opponent has a Skite out just swing aggressive until it breaks. You can still pump Knight little by little and drain their life from Skite activations and beats.
The question becomes "what gets cut". Does she replace goyf in both variants, and we replace 2x Elspeth/Retreat with Sword/Batterskull.?
Maybe cleaning up the primer a bit can help with confusion, but I don't see how trolling helps lol.
I think that there's a little too much trolling on whether or not it's tier 2. Write a letter to a mod or something lol. I don't pay attention to tier rankings anyways; it's a horrible way of rating decks that turns into a popularity contest.
This deck should def be in developing but whatevs.
I think you're seeing what a lot of us have. The zoo version of knight fall dilutes the zoo aggro game plan for an oops I win plan B. So as you try and optimize that deck you end up in a circle back at the standard zoo deck.
I think your match ups would improve with the hatebears version since every card I can name is pretty much already in that version of the deck, and the 75 has something that can pretty much answer almost all the decks you mentioned. I would take out the unflinching courage and play 2/2 retreat/elspeth split. Don't worry about interacting too much game 1. Race the opponent and use Elspeth and retreat to push damage through. If you accidentally combo, cool, if not, the game should be done turn 5 anyway.
I think Woodland Wanderer is ok as a budget option, but something that big should be able to protect itself or leave behind value in this kind of deck where we are already a little weak to 2-for-1s with the exception of coco and eternal witness, and maybe voice.
Huntsman is kind of meh since we rather race than be put into a grindy situation, and the lifegain and card advantage will probably be weak against the decks I'd want him against anyway.
My 4-drop beater choices for this deck are:
Wiltleaf liege: he can sneak onto the field free and is a deck anthem, especially for your dual colored creatures.
Resto angel: flash, can protect the combo or another creature, and is a resilient clock in the air. I like this card since our interactions can be weak.
Sigarda, host of herons: gives your opponent little room for interaction, shuts down Lilly, and can hit the field turn 3 against Path.
Thrun: Resilient, but you have to keep mana up, and he doesn't go over a lot of stuff anymore.
Chameleon Collosus: protection from black, so he handles Tas and Angler and most of the formats removal, and he can go over goyf with his ability. Gives you something to do with mana too I guess to close put the game.
I'm running Sigarda, but I'm still trying to figure out the bad match ups and how I want to handle them.
Edit:
(And I'd probably 3/2 coco/chord if I were on chord, though I don't think it's necessary)
But, I think it'd be sexy next to Azusa in a BloomTitan build with a red splash. It's super aggro even if you don't hit Titan and you can protect your lands in response to destro effects. It also gives a threat resilient to bloodmoon for when you're waiting on your second forest (assuming you play a second in the side).
I'm hoping the new set gives us a super aggro one drop with some sort of useful trigger or static ability.
I think you need to ask yourself why you're playing him. It seems to me that by the time you turn on his ramp, you probably already have it (or the mana you need). If you're playing him to have a cheap aggressive creature, there's better creatures that are either stronger or have more relevant abilities that don't require turning them on.
I've been running 2x Steppe Lynx. Works well if you combo off, gives you some explosive plays for 4+ damage, goes under bridge... I'm not saying he's the best card to slot up, but he's suited the role I want for him as my 2x pseudo-goyfs.
I think honored is slightly better than birds, but Dryad Military is also an option (shuts down the most played blue card Snap, his cousin Jace, and graveyard strategies), and some two-drops are good choices.. (maindeck some skites and open up 2 more sideboard slots).
One thing I've learned is that sometimes you want to mulligan an OK hand for a hand that has what you need against decks like that. It def sounds like meddling mage can put in work there.