Hi Torpf, I think a large problem of the primer, and indeed the discussion on this deck is that it is so utterly fragmented into it's different constituent decks, them being; Knightfall, Bant Company, Bant Vizier, Bant Knightfall Vizier. Each is essentially a fairly different deck, and everyone seemingly deserving their own segment on the decks, entirely separate from one another.
Some hopefully helpful criticism of the current primer, and then some possible suggestions;
The Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder combo I believe literally hasn't been played in a single competitive Bant list in over a year, and deserves no place in a primer for Knightfall.
The Sample deck-lists are poorly out of date.
The distinction of segregating the two Vizier decks from the two Midrange decks is paramount. This is seen in the 'proven maindeck creatures' section, where it places Duskwatch Recruiter next to Voice and Ooze. To be honest, in my opinion, the vizier version of this deck is entirely a combo deck and has no place in this self sectioned Midrange primer, as this is the Knightfall/Bant Company primer.
The Inclusion of Chord in the proven maindeck non-creature spells along side CoCo, Retreat and Path is like, well no I'm sorry it's utterly not. It's only seen in Vizier lists and is paramount there, and basically unplayable in the value lists. We need a segregation of the decks categorisation to have clear discussions on the improvements to both in the future.
Rhox War Monk and Rest in Peace are laughable to be in the recommended sideboard section
The primer shows its age when UR delver is referenced in the argument for Eidolon of Rhetoric being good.
Have a section discussing the advantages/disadvantages to play of the 7/8 dork 22/23 land debate
Have a section discussing the validity of the red splash and the sideboard cards that come along with it (Izzet Staticaster/Crumble to Dust) vs the play of Straight Bant, sometimes with the addition of Sejiri Steppe.
Have a section discussing the use of the two drops as our hate card package for the metagame
Have a section discussing the play of the difference suit of counter spells from the board
Based on the most recent lists averaging in 2018 the breakdown of mainboard staples vs addition card choices should look something like, at least for the Knightfall/Bant Company section, being as non biased as possible.
As for your criticism, what I did was smash the GWx Vizier Company thread into this one in an attempt to make this comprehensive since it was never updated after Vizier was printed. Looking at it now, I see where you're coming from, and do agree that this should be kept as Midrange/Knightfall only. Since I also run the other thread, I can just flesh that one out more with all of the colour splashes. I was writing offline and totally forgot that we rearranged the forums into archetypes, which was a major oversight... Thanks for giving me a better idea of how to organize all of it. As for the rest of the points, it just shows how out of date the primer was lol. Thanks for pointing it out and I'll get it changed.
All the suggestions are great too, so I'll get those added in.
I'm in the process of updating the primer since it was kinda neglected for a little while....
The shortlist of things that still need to be fixed:
- Change the 'sample decks' to be more relevant to today's lists
- Update the 'about the deck' section to reflect playing the three distinct styles of decks: Knightfall, Bant Midrange, and Druid-Vizier
- Give all of the cards a proofread, and make their descriptions more concise
- Move Voice & EWit to the maindeck cards, Burrenton & Eidolon & Mirrion Crusader to the SB, and Linvala & Reveillark to the others.
My question to the thread is, what cards have I missed and should be added/removed? Also, I write most of this in notepad so please point out any grammar/spelling stuff I missed.
Updated primer up! Check it out, let me know what you think and if I missed anything. I'll continue to add some small tweaks over time and possibly a sideboard guide eventually... but those take a long time to do. Compiling the images takes forever to make them look good on the site (Abzan Company has what I mean) and you can even see ho there is a blue background on the Knight + Retreat picture in the first section since the site has changed colour since I put up the first version. That annoys me and will be fixed soon.
Am I missing something in the round 2 game vs dredge where on turn 2 he casts Tormenting Voice discarding a Golgari Grave-troll, then off of his 1st draw he bring back the Troll to dredge 6, then brings back the Stinkweed Imp off of the 2nd draw. Then he shuffles the cards in his hand a bit and puts a Golgari Grave-troll and Bloodghast back into the graveyard from seemingly nowhere....? Perhaps it's just sleep deprived me missing something?
Wanting some feedback on the primer, is there anything you guys would like to see added/removed from it? Because the deck doesn't put up consistent results it is hard to really have an accepted list to put in it. It has moved slightly away form what is in the primer too so I'd like to update it to reflect that.
I'm pretty sure it was looked into back somewhere in the thread, and people looked into it for Abzan Company. The risk of not having the colourless is pretty high. Think of it as always having to use your knight search to get a colourless land instead of something else. I think it has power to be in the deck, but it stretches the mana too much.
I'm sorry I didn't know how to do it and I was on my phone.
It's actually pretty neat because the biggest weakness of that combo was getting chumpblocked and now you run kessig wolf run and 8 ways to tutor for it (even tho it is a lot of mana).
What do you have to stop a blood moon? It's going to lock you out pretty hard with only Pridemage main board to stop it and the 2 Negates in the side? Just hope to dodge it?
Between the pridemage main, transversing for basics, hierarchs and revelrys in post board y think it's as good as it can get. The cool thing about revelry is that you only need the basic forest to cast it because they will give you the red with the moon.
Yeah my bad, I forgot Revelry hit enchantments. You're more covered than I thought.
Yesterday I went 3-0 at my LGS playing a homebrew of this with tranverse the ulvenwald and such, it plays red and is more similar to a zoo deck than a bant collected but I didnt know where to post it, if you are interested let me know and I will post the decklist.
Sounds like my type of deck! Would love to see your list
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wild Nacatl
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Ceaseless Searblades
Eli Kassis's list from the Invitational is worth checking out - 2 Declaration in Stone, 1 Westvale Abbey MD.
Westvale Abby seems pretty interesting. It's especially pretty funny against control, at least seemingly. I have no idea why someone would choose to use a split of 2x Path to Exile and 2x Declaration in Stone, instead of 4x Path to Exile. The only real win Declaration in Stone gets, is against Token matches, and I don't think those decks see near enough play to be using mainboard answers to them. The rest of the time, Declaration is just a slow, sorcery speed Path.
In an unknown meta perhaps he expected a lot of tokens. Thopors should have been pretty abundant so it is a good reason to run it.