Yup either are options, i would say just any sort of interaction, whether it is bigger creatures (which dropping CoCo allows you to do, ebpnjoy all the 4+ cmc creatures) thinks like resto angels, or ojutai, detention sphere, chord of calling. Dropping CoCo opens lots of possibilities. Itll just take some playing on what you want to fill it with.
But you have to remember the deck does slow down a bit by dropping CoCo but it makes up for it in becoming slighly more reliable in what its casting.
Are you still trying to make midrange work? If so what interaction are you running besides path/D-commands. The one of Valorous Stance in the board has proven to be very useful so I'm running it in the main now.
Also isn't mana leak awkward for you with path?
Yep! I'm still on midrange, I really liked how its been playing and I've started to see a bunch more midrangey decks pop up around here, its great to see.
Mana leak is not ideal with path but its not terrible either. look at a lot of the UW creature control decks that have been doing well recently. They sometimes are playing 4 paths alongside 4 leaks. Its rare to have them totally dead, people just love using as much mana as possible. Sometimes people just go "yup" and pay the 3 mana but until there is anything as versatile as leak (it hits anything) its still going to be the best option modern has (or at least the least awful option).
Currently the "interaction" I'm playing are 4 paths, 2 dromokas and 3 mana leaks. I consider interaction anything that slows or disrupts what the other person is doing so the counterspells fit in that category. They're like removal but before the card hits the field. So like i said thats 9 pieces of interaction. I was running a 10th with a single cryptic command but it was always hard to cast. But I've always just found dromokas disappointing in the main. sometimes it does awesome things like reloading finks and 2-for-1'ing in combat for blow out blocks and fights. but its let me down so many times as well where a card that just read "kill a creature" would have been a million times better. so thats what I'm looking at now. i have to pick up 2 copies but right now I'm liking the sounds of swift reckoning but heres the other ones I've found warranting consideration at least oust, reciprocate, smite, sunlance(if this was an instant i would play this in an absolute heartbeat), azorius charm, crystallization, runed halo, valorous stance and reality shift
Sure there is, the scenario of the turn you play the knight. Unluss he is getting haste somehow neither KotR nor the uncracked fetch are finding sejerri step, and if its in your hand the land cant be played in response.
I agree with whats been said about sejeri. 1/100 games you'll blank removal. But 5/100 its going to cost you the game for being a restrictive tap land
The only reason i see having it is for its cheap rogues passage effect, to let an attacker get through bevause there are going to be times when they dont have removal but do have defenders. Still dont think its worth it
Re: Clique - i am currently running one, its been okay, sort of in a weird spot but it is nice when you want to hold counter magic and then still have the option to use mana (clique and resto are nice like that.
Another thought ive had, ive found two spots im my list id like to shore up. First is removal. I dislike relying solely on 4 paths to protect myself. They are aweful early game and certain creatures just dont deserve a path. Currently i am playong 2 dromokas command to add the slightest extra bit of removal. Problems with that is its a jack of all trades card, master of none. The red counter is situational, so is enchantment destruction, +1/+1 is situational and the fight ability also has the same problem of path in being terrible early game before you have a good creature base, or plays into 2-for-1's another bad thing. The other thing id like to shore up is reliably growing goyf, i pnly play 2 so i dont need it as a cornerstone.
But those few problems led me to look at swift reckoning it can be played early enough, easy mana cost, not dependent on having a creature fight, hard removal, enemy creatures can be tapped down to turn it on with retreat, late game should be an instant, but still counts as a sorcery for goyf.
Bant just really has terrible removal other than paths. I usually like to run between 7-10 peices of interaction which now is 4 path, 3 counterspells of some nature and 2 extra something removals (currently dromokas C) but im going to be trying both swift reckoning and sun lance. Anyone have any other ideas of 1-2 cmc removal for bant? Detention sphere is boarder line there for me, its just one too many, but it hits everything so maybe, also crystallization is close to
So far the deck feels very smooth. The mulligans have all felt good. It has a good amount of hate and ways of dealing with all sorts of threats between Path, Detention Sphere and Qasali. So a few pieces of tech in the deck. I included commune with the gods, which has been pretty bonkers so far. Unless I really have nothing better to do, I almost never play it turn 2, but it is a bonkers play when you have 5 mana up. Grab your Retreat and combo off, or find your detention sphere and land your answer. I have also lived the dream of playing a 1/2 goyf, passing and then next turn commune, dump a creature, enchantment, instant and land, grab a detention sphere to clear the way for a 5/6 goyf. I have dumped 4 lands before, sadly no knight in play. It breaks parity nicely late in the game and can find our game winners.
I dropped Retreat to 3 because I can dig for it, and because I wanted to include Sun Titan. He has yet to see play, but seems like a great way to grind out a long game and he synergizes well with commune as well. I went up to 23 lands and it makes the draws feel better. It also protects from dumping too many in the yard. Without the kessig I was able to do a turn 3 kill, but cap out at 23 dmg, but I feel like I kind of want kessig back instead of rogues to make sure I can end the game in the face of life gain, but not sure. A sweeper would also be nice, but not sure what that would be besides a wrath (planar outburst ;))
CP Im digging the looks of this deck, keep going with it and keep us updated with how the testing goes. I think this is the best list I've seen in terms of supporting Goyf so nicely done with that. Between 4 goyf, 3 loxodon, 4 KotR and a titan you might be able to support stubborn denial. just some food for thought, don't know where you would add it, maybe SB
i think the biggest drawback of caryatid is that spending 2 mana to ramp is too slow, you really want to be able to play the bird turn 1 if you've got it, if it gets bolted its not the worst. But a T1 bird makes it possible to combo out on turn 3. a T2 caryatid means the earliest you could combo is turn 4, something you could do anyways without the caryatid.
dromoka might have some applications if your meta has lots of control. i think Ojutai is better in general as it has built in protection and built in evasion, and an incredible ability if it hits face.
Ive only run across Amulet Bloom once with Kightfall and although it was a victory it definitely didn't feel favoured to me. I turn 3'd him one game, he turn 2'd me the next and then game three was very long and grindy. And while i do like Dromoka's and think it should be included regardless. a good titan player won't play the Hive mind until they also have the pact in hand in which case removal of the enchantment doesn't stop the pact triggers from happening (as far as i know)
What do you guys think we could put in the 75 to improve the Jund, Tribal, Burn, and Tron matches?
First of all thanks for the report and SB analysis. A really good card that helps both the burn and jund matchups is Fitchen Finks. Both the life gain and double body is valuable in those matches. Another card ive found very usfull, and was put in specifically for the burn, junk, jund, grixis and twin decks is hindering light. It blanks burn spells and discard spells, and stops 1-for-1 removal in its tracks. And those jund matches are trying to outvalue you so getting to draw after blanking one of their cards is huge tempo. Its basically a 2 mana cryptic command for targeted spells.
You mention you found negate underwhelming. Maybe try unified will. I think this is a rare deck that can pull it off and would help the tron matches. Against tron you should have more creatures and unlike negate it counters everything, and unlike mana leak is never dead late game. Dont really have any suggestions for Merfolk righht now though outside of wraths which obviously hurt us just as much.
But does it stop anything outside linear combo? ad nasuem, living end... ok i can accept those, great gotcha card. But Tron? ok i can't play Karn? heres pyroclasm or Ugin or oblivion stone, ohh now i can play Karn, cool. Junk/jund? do you name removal? they play a very diverse set of removal, shut down abrupt decay, and terminate or path or bolt are all going to destroy your bear. name a threat and said removal will unlock it again. And it doesn't shut off a 4-of, it might shut off a card that they have 4-of in the deck but don't confuse that with shutting out 4 cards in their hand. They have to be holding it and not have a way remove the mage. And it is not the same great screw card like Blood Moon is or ensnaring bridge, its a bear with a potential upside. I just don't get why you wouldn't want to dedicate a SB slot to something thats guaranteed to be stronger. especially since theres no way to protect the mage to keep them locked out. its going to be an annoyance, not an answer
It's a two drop. It's not your entire deck. GR Tron is pretty much the only deck that mainboards Pyroclasm. You can name Pyroclasm to stop them wiping out your mana creatures long enough to use them. You can stop them dropping a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine on your face. You can even just name Expedition Map if you get the play to stop them fixing their Tron lands. Like use your imagination a bit dude.
I never said it shuts out 4 cards in their hand, I said 4 of in their deck, that's per mage unless they remove it. Any time you've got a 2 drop that is attracting removal spells is a good thing because you don't want them removing the Knight of the Reliquary. It gives them a potential roadblock the same as any good disruption that they need to invest a card into removing. If they don't have creatures down it also deals a bit of damage.
This deck turn 3 kills sometimes and beats down in 5 or 6 turns easily. That annoyance can be all you need to block a potential sweeper or stop their combo going off first. It's not a potential upside, it is an upside, if you're not seeing any you're not playing it right.
Obviously im not, but you go turn 2 meddling mage and name pyroclasm, theres no gaurentee they even have that pyroclasm in their hand in which case yove spent turn 2 in modern playing a bear. Thats not the kind of tempo the format respects. Theres no way to pair mages ability up with knowledge of the other persons hand in this deck so your going to be guessing literally 100% of the time and hoping you brick something. Also of youre dedicating more than 1-2 meddling mages to those 15 SB slots youre cutting into valuable room for better things. If it truely is a crucial peice of their puzzle, they will get out from under the mage. You might be slowing them down while they find an answer for it but your slowing yourself down as well to even play the mage. And i dont think the number of times you slow them down more is going to be greater than the number of times you just played a 2/2 naming a card not in their hand. If you can provide a list of the matches you would bring Meddling Mage in for and what you would name, maybe i can get a better picture of why its a good card for the SB
But does it stop anything outside linear combo? ad nasuem, living end... ok i can accept those, great gotcha card. But Tron? ok i can't play Karn? heres pyroclasm or Ugin or oblivion stone, ohh now i can play Karn, cool. Junk/jund? do you name removal? they play a very diverse set of removal, shut down abrupt decay, and terminate or path or bolt are all going to destroy your bear. name a threat and said removal will unlock it again. And it doesn't shut off a 4-of, it might shut off a card that they have 4-of in the deck but don't confuse that with shutting out 4 cards in their hand. They have to be holding it and not have a way remove the mage. And it is not the same great screw card like Blood Moon is or ensnaring bridge, its a bear with a potential upside. I just don't get why you wouldn't want to dedicate a SB slot to something thats guaranteed to be stronger. especially since theres no way to protect the mage to keep them locked out. its going to be an annoyance, not an answer
How have you guys been playing with Meddling Mage? i keep looking at it and thinking, modern is way to diverse to really stop a deck. like, what is it stonewalling? linear combo decks? i can see it being nice in ad nauseum. and thats it? don't decks just remove it and carry on with business as usual? Its not like you can even see the opponents hand either, so your basically playing a bear and hoping they have what you've named in hand.
Thanks pokken, I agree, the goyfs have proven themselves to be juuuust ok enough that at 2 I like them. I've been focusing on testing the spell suite, so once I feel that's solid I'll go back to testing and adjusting the creatures. In a goyf-less version right now I would say a 4th voice and another interactive spell, being a 1-of valorous stance, remand, simic charm, scooze or pridemage could take those slots
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But you have to remember the deck does slow down a bit by dropping CoCo but it makes up for it in becoming slighly more reliable in what its casting.
Yep! I'm still on midrange, I really liked how its been playing and I've started to see a bunch more midrangey decks pop up around here, its great to see.
Mana leak is not ideal with path but its not terrible either. look at a lot of the UW creature control decks that have been doing well recently. They sometimes are playing 4 paths alongside 4 leaks. Its rare to have them totally dead, people just love using as much mana as possible. Sometimes people just go "yup" and pay the 3 mana but until there is anything as versatile as leak (it hits anything) its still going to be the best option modern has (or at least the least awful option).
Currently the "interaction" I'm playing are 4 paths, 2 dromokas and 3 mana leaks. I consider interaction anything that slows or disrupts what the other person is doing so the counterspells fit in that category. They're like removal but before the card hits the field. So like i said thats 9 pieces of interaction. I was running a 10th with a single cryptic command but it was always hard to cast. But I've always just found dromokas disappointing in the main. sometimes it does awesome things like reloading finks and 2-for-1'ing in combat for blow out blocks and fights. but its let me down so many times as well where a card that just read "kill a creature" would have been a million times better. so thats what I'm looking at now. i have to pick up 2 copies but right now I'm liking the sounds of swift reckoning but heres the other ones I've found warranting consideration at least
oust, reciprocate, smite, sunlance(if this was an instant i would play this in an absolute heartbeat), azorius charm, crystallization, runed halo, valorous stance and reality shift
I agree with whats been said about sejeri. 1/100 games you'll blank removal. But 5/100 its going to cost you the game for being a restrictive tap land
The only reason i see having it is for its cheap rogues passage effect, to let an attacker get through bevause there are going to be times when they dont have removal but do have defenders. Still dont think its worth it
Another thought ive had, ive found two spots im my list id like to shore up. First is removal. I dislike relying solely on 4 paths to protect myself. They are aweful early game and certain creatures just dont deserve a path. Currently i am playong 2 dromokas command to add the slightest extra bit of removal. Problems with that is its a jack of all trades card, master of none. The red counter is situational, so is enchantment destruction, +1/+1 is situational and the fight ability also has the same problem of path in being terrible early game before you have a good creature base, or plays into 2-for-1's another bad thing. The other thing id like to shore up is reliably growing goyf, i pnly play 2 so i dont need it as a cornerstone.
But those few problems led me to look at swift reckoning it can be played early enough, easy mana cost, not dependent on having a creature fight, hard removal, enemy creatures can be tapped down to turn it on with retreat, late game should be an instant, but still counts as a sorcery for goyf.
Bant just really has terrible removal other than paths. I usually like to run between 7-10 peices of interaction which now is 4 path, 3 counterspells of some nature and 2 extra something removals (currently dromokas C) but im going to be trying both swift reckoning and sun lance. Anyone have any other ideas of 1-2 cmc removal for bant? Detention sphere is boarder line there for me, its just one too many, but it hits everything so maybe, also crystallization is close to
CP Im digging the looks of this deck, keep going with it and keep us updated with how the testing goes. I think this is the best list I've seen in terms of supporting Goyf so nicely done with that. Between 4 goyf, 3 loxodon, 4 KotR and a titan you might be able to support stubborn denial. just some food for thought, don't know where you would add it, maybe SB
dromoka might have some applications if your meta has lots of control. i think Ojutai is better in general as it has built in protection and built in evasion, and an incredible ability if it hits face.
First of all thanks for the report and SB analysis. A really good card that helps both the burn and jund matchups is Fitchen Finks. Both the life gain and double body is valuable in those matches. Another card ive found very usfull, and was put in specifically for the burn, junk, jund, grixis and twin decks is hindering light. It blanks burn spells and discard spells, and stops 1-for-1 removal in its tracks. And those jund matches are trying to outvalue you so getting to draw after blanking one of their cards is huge tempo. Its basically a 2 mana cryptic command for targeted spells.
You mention you found negate underwhelming. Maybe try unified will. I think this is a rare deck that can pull it off and would help the tron matches. Against tron you should have more creatures and unlike negate it counters everything, and unlike mana leak is never dead late game. Dont really have any suggestions for Merfolk righht now though outside of wraths which obviously hurt us just as much.
Obviously im not, but you go turn 2 meddling mage and name pyroclasm, theres no gaurentee they even have that pyroclasm in their hand in which case yove spent turn 2 in modern playing a bear. Thats not the kind of tempo the format respects. Theres no way to pair mages ability up with knowledge of the other persons hand in this deck so your going to be guessing literally 100% of the time and hoping you brick something. Also of youre dedicating more than 1-2 meddling mages to those 15 SB slots youre cutting into valuable room for better things. If it truely is a crucial peice of their puzzle, they will get out from under the mage. You might be slowing them down while they find an answer for it but your slowing yourself down as well to even play the mage. And i dont think the number of times you slow them down more is going to be greater than the number of times you just played a 2/2 naming a card not in their hand. If you can provide a list of the matches you would bring Meddling Mage in for and what you would name, maybe i can get a better picture of why its a good card for the SB