So thoughts on this deck, it is different than some of the decks floating around on here but we have some lists that are close. Going with no paths in the 75 seems... bold but it is a very pure take on the deck.
Crap, the fiend hunter with chord is a pretty good idea. The list is a bit weird. I'm still wrapping my head around wanting both chord and company--but, then again, his list is doing something kinda different than the lists I've seen discussed here.
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I think that the next card that can bring this archtype to the next level is Bring to Light. It's a tricky card to make good, you need a deck that can generate 5 mana by turn 3-4 at least or it's too slow. You need a deck that can also generate 3-5 colors as part of that 5 mana, or it's not good enough. Those are a couple hard conditions to fill, but Knightfall seems to fill them pretty fantastically. It's incredibly powerful to cast BTL on turn 3 or 4 for Convergence 4 and realize that you could literally cast ANY modern-legal Creature/Sorcery/Instant, so long as you have 1 of them in your deck. It's epic game 1, and can literally grab nearly every card in the aggro deck, including coco, but also including spells like Living End or Restore Balance or Wheel of Fate if you put in a singleton.
But I think the biggest strength by far is game 2 and 3. Playing BTL as a 3-of allows you to play a "silver bullet" sideboard, where you only need to side in 1 copy of say, Crumble to Dust against Tron, and you basically have 4. Run a singleton of Eternal Witness and you can grab it back too. Rather than having a sideboard with multiple copies so you might draw them, we can play a sideboard with 15 unique "silver bullet" cards, like Kor Firewalker or Magus of the moon or Melira, Sylvok Outcast and then BTL basically makes it so you have 4 potential copies in your deck.
Here's my new list, and below is a match write-up of 4 games i played online with it.
Match 1: R/G Tron
Basically a mirror match, except I don't get hosed by Magus of the Moon or Crumble to Dust like he does. Game 1 I had the play, he assembled tron by turn 3 but I had KoTR+Coralhelm in my hand and ramped into the combo on turn 3. Game 2 -1 Serum Visions -1 Karn Liberated +1 Crumble to Dust +1 Magus of the Moon. I kept a hand with Bring to Light, 2 fetches, and a utopia sprawl (and some other stuff that I can't remember). He got to Tron turn 3 again, but had to tap out for it with expedition and whatnot. Meanwhile, by my turn 3 I had fetched a Temple Garden, a Breeding Pool, and played a Utopia sprawl. I topdecked a forest, played it, then cast Bring to Light for Crumble to Dust on his Urza's Tower and he scooped.
Match 2: Infect
One of the decks I really wanted to see with BTL, not sure if it's fast enough. Still not sure because we can only use it as early as turn 3, and infect can turn 2 pretty consistently. Game 1 I was setting up ramp and got BTFO by a turn 2 kill. Game 2 I boarded in Melira, Spellskite, Dismember, and Clique. Drew another hand with BTL and ramp and managed to land a turn 3 BTL>Melira while at 9 poison counters. From there the board was definitely way more stable and I combo'd out via Tooth and Nail. Game 3 was another close one. I kept a hand with Spellskite and Clique, used those 2 to slow him down long enough to land another Melira and after that it was GG in a turn or 2 Via Kessig Wolf Run beats and tons of mana.
Match 3: Merfolk
Another deck i really wanted to play. Game 1 i couldnt handle the aggro, but Game 2 I boarded in Anger of the Gods, Merfolk Assassin, and Supreme Verdict. Landed a turn 3 BTL>Verdict, which killed an elf of mine but i had a satyr in hand. Eventually got there by KoTR beats and Garruk's tokens. Match 3 I had the coolest play ever. Real grindy, I landed a Merfolk Assassin which kept things stable enough until I had potential 5 colors of mana, and 8 available mana with a retreat in play, and Kotr in hand, and 3 life with several merfolk staring down at me and Bring to Light. I cast Knight of the Reliquary, then used BTL for Converge 5, grabbed Xenagos, God of Revels and used his effect to give KoTR haste and combo out during combat step.
Match 4: Jund
Not much to say, got wrecked. Discard ****ed my day up and so did burn spells to my dorks. Added Aegis of the Gods to the sideboard after this match to protect from discard, although he's also burnable so i'd love some suggestions. I landed a Magus of the Moon but he just bolted it. Thinking of adding in a Blood Moon to the sideboard, then using BTL> Diabolic Tutor > Blood Moon
All in all, 3-1 and pretty happy with it, looking forward to improving the deck, I think this has some serious potential.
I feel like your list is trying to do at least one thing too many. It seems like knight/retreat are an odd fit, in that BTL only gets 1/2 the combo. You'd probably be better off focusing on Tooth and Nail and the BTL toolbox rather than adding in an anti-synergistic combo. Moreover, your results suggest that your success suggests that combo didn't really add anything.
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It's a 2-for-1 that's a method of uncounterably putting either a Knight or a Retreat into play. It costs some mana, but with dorks getting to 5 mana doesn't seem difficult, and especially so with retreat+dorks, or knight as pseudo-ramp.
Anyone tried it? It's more mana efficient than wargate, potentially, but obviously not as precise, but also synergizes pretty well with Courser of Kruphix (providing a shuffle effect and a way to take advantage of knowledge of your top card).
Because it's a cast trigger it's not vulnerable to stuff that is normally a problem for us, like tempo counterspells and such. Having your Chord remanded feels pretty poor, but this guy does not want to interact--he just wants to spit out free cards.
I actually had a similar thought--but, it still isn't reliable, and it certainly isn't efficient. While it can get either piece, you need a lot of mana to search anything but the top cards three cards. That having been said, I haven't tried it, but, I have my doubts.
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I also think commune is too clunky/inconsistent for modern (at least, in a non-enchantress style deck, which currently doesnt exist).
My 2 cents.
Well, Complex Pants' list seemed intriguing. If you gear more of the deck to be focused on enchantment and creatures, commune makes some sense. Not only can you get combo pieces, but you can also pick occasional removal and put things in the yard. Moreover, there really aren't much better options for sorting through the deck--some people tried serum visions but I think it was generally unimpressive.
...
I think the problem the deck has at the moment is that it is an OK midrange deck with an OK combo (that it has no reliably way of putting together). The whole thing still feels like it is missing something to me. I suspect CoCo makes it better at beatdown while Chord makes it a bit better at combo, but I'm not sure and haven't played both versions.
Then there's naya--where you get a crazier manabase, bolt, and cats.
Then there's abzan--where you get lots of other stuff.
I swear, you can take the deck in a million directions, which is making it hard to determine which is a better route.
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I've got to be honest, I'm just not super into CoCo. What would be an okay replacement? Counter spells? Draw?
Not going into CoCo lets you run a wider range of creatures and more non-creature spells overall. However, CoCo seems to add some non-combo explosiveness to the deck. I (and a few others) have been trying chord of calling--it is slower and less explosive, but more precise. Chord plus retreat gets you the combo, while CoCo plus retreat might get you the combo.
Another alternative with some legs is commune with the gods searches for either combo piece and turns on some graveyard tricks, including making goyf more useful in these builds.
That having been said, I think CoCo builds are currently favored.
Lantern Control 2-0
Lost roll
G1:He develops a bit and plays a turn 3 bridge to hold back the turn 2 smiter. I pridemage the bridge and he can't find another before the beats bring it in.
G2:He establishes a soft lock but I have a company in hand. I hit a knight and swing with a lethal bird of paradise + kessig
Elves 2-0
Lost roll
G1: He vomits out tons of cards and ends up with like 15 permanents by the time he passes his 3rd turn. I curved into knight, untap and combo.
G2: Slower start - he plays an elf, I keep a shakey hand with a birds into meddling mage and name ezuri. He dismembers it and plays out some elves. I play a knight and he gets to draw 5 from lead the stampede and plays out some cantripping/token making elves while dismembering my knight. I hold company mana up, and he goes off getting about 100 power on the board including ezuri, nyxthos and archdruids. He passes and I company into knight and aven mindcensor (i thought he was on chord, but after I discovered he didn't in fact play chord). Untap, swing for exactly lethal in the air with aven and kessig.
Grixis Twin 2-0
Lost roll
G1: He plays visions, I open noble. He remands my turn 2 voice, and noble beats. I land smiter the following turn and it eats terminate. Turn 4 he hits his 3rd land drop and remands voice again, but I can replay it. Voice sticks. After this, he main phases exarch and I path it during my turn, play knight and beat with voice. Beats bring it home shortly after
G2: Much the same as game 1 but he hits his land drop. A turn 3 spellskite puts him pretty far behind, and the beats close out the game quickly.
Gonna play this deck at comic-con events this weekend. Ill try to keep notes on the experience to share with you fine folks!
Thanks for the info! I really am going to have to squeeze wolfrun in, aren't I?
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Went 3-1 tonight at my LGS with the Chord version of the deck. My only loss was to U/W Tron. I couldn't win the resource race after he started using Sphinx's Revelation so he was able to close it out on turn 5 of extra turns. Next was Storm where I got my Leyline of Sanctity online right away and was able to flash in Restoration Angel eot with him at 3 life. Then I went on to play Bogles and went turn two Knight of the Reliquary, turn 3 Retreat to Coralhelm and killed him. Last round was against Affinity. Game 1 he crushed me, game 2 I had a hand with a turn 2 Stony Silence into a Chord of Calling for Kataki, War's Wage. Game 3 I kept nearly the exact same starting hand as game 2 and just dominated him. Sejiri Steppe actually won me 3 games tonight...I can post a list in the morning if anyone is interested in seeing what I ran.
It would be great if you could give us the full report and your list. Are you running Company as well as Chord?
Just put up the decklist.
It feels like your list might be higher on value but lower on pressure. How has it functioned when you don't have/get the combo?
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OK, on the busride home, I had a few worthwhile thoughts.
On removal: For those of you who are trying commune with the gods, a relevant option may be temporal isolation--Playable at instant speed, searchable with commune and even blanks auxiliary damage effects. There are two major downsides, however, first, it doesn't really function with potent continuous effects (e.g. Dark Confidant), attack effects (e.g. primeval titan) or activated abilities (e.g.Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker) and, as an enchantment, it can always be removed. Either way, it is efficient and probably solid against aggro. It may not be enough to really be worth it, however.
There's also runed halo--not removal per se, but it can be pretty effective just the same. However, it never removes a blocker, is sorcery speed, and still an enchantment.
As for azorius charm, I tried it in an earlier list. The biggest problem is that the attacking/blocking restriction can be pretty limiting, especially if you are trying to clear a blocker. Moreover, they will just get the card back next turn, so it sucks for killing linchpin creatures. On the other hand, cycling is always nice, and gaining occasional goofy amounts of life doesn't suck either. Still, I wasn't impressed with it overall.
Wrath protection: I remembered a card, and it could be something. Dauntless Escort actually blanks nearly every played sweeper I can think of (except maybe Terminus), as well as being a somewhat smallish beater. The downside is that you telegraph the move before you actually use it (unless you chord or coco him in). Either way, I may try him as a one-of in my chord list.
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With the number of creature you are running that have <4 power (knight is variable) I would suggest unified will instead of spell pierce. I run two out of my board, but I think I want to up that to 3. It is such a great surprise to hard counter a creature with 2 mana up. It has won me multiple games. I would say 80% of the time we have more creatures than out opponents, so it is a hard counter.
Other removal you may consider is valorous stance and detention sphere has been a life saver a few times.
I will say geist is an absolute power house in this deck. With 7 exalted creatures, he rarely swings into bad blocking situations. For some decks he is really hard to answer and will just win you the game.
Has any one figured out a good way to deal with sweepers? Any time I face a UWx deck, Verdict just hoses me and there isn't much I can do about it. Valorous stance to save 1 guys is about all I got.
I don't know why, but I'm a bit scared of unified will, I may give it a shot. As for geist--even with exalted, I never had it where he could survive a blocking goyf--in contrast smiter with one exalted almost always could. Moreover, smiter's imperfect protection could help draw fire away from knight.
Valorous Stance seems like an interesting option. I sort of feel like detention sphere could end up a bit slow and clunky. Anyone tried Bant Charm? I feel like it could be OK, but it is also a bit slow
As for sweeper protection; not that I'm suggesting this is a great idea, but wrap in vigor does blank supreme verdict and damage-based sweepers. It sucks against older wraths and generally anything not wrath specific, so it may not be worth a slot.
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Well, I got to test a little bit this weekend, mostly against Jund and Amulet Bloom--multiple matches with each. The players were competent in a local sort of a way (but that's really where I am at too). Ultimately, they were the only ones who brought modern decks at a local gameday. So, obviously not high level play or anything. Anyway, I'm still getting a feel for the deck.
Chord was a nice fall back option--several of the times I successfully combo'd out involved chording at end of turn for the Knight--I also liked having the ability to grab the MD finks for lifegain or the eternal witness (typically to get back retreat)
I often felt like I wanted more removal, not sure what to do about it though
I think I'm going to drop the spell pierce and try full-on stubborn denial--most of the time when pierce was useful, denial would have worked and there were several times when pierce didn't work and denial would have
Also probably going to try it geist-less--he's occasionally explosive, but he is often sort of mediocre unless you have retreat and some land drops to tap down attackers. More Smiters would also help out the stubborn denial plan
Vs. Jund
This proved to be a tricky match-up. Due to discard and copious amounts of removal, I never had much chance to actually combo off.
My sideboard didn't seem to help this match-up much
Out of three matches, Lost 2, Lost 2/Won 1, Lost 1/Won 2--so not so great The winning match was by the skin of my teeth
Vs. Amulet Bloom
Generally an easier match-up--he had few ways of interacting with me pre-board, meaning I combo'd off more easily
Notably, I really felt the "only 3" retreats here. There were several turns where I was "if I just hit a retreat, I win"
Spell pierce was often utterly worthless after turn one--stubborn denial had some game, but it wasn't a huge deal
Post-board, I was happy to have the dromoka's commands, as he added firespouts Also used the command to have a large knight fight and kill a titan--kinda a fun moment
Overall, the sideboard worked pretty well here
Across two matches, Win 2, Win 2
Also--I may try commune with the gods (especially after Complex Pants' results)--I really don't want to run 4 retreats, but I need a way of hitting them more reliably.
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So, one issue I had with running the 1-mana counterspells was the amount they increased your desire to fetch blue early and leave it untapped in many matchups--which conflicts with our desire to run out our threats. I think a deck running maindeck counterspells probably ought to just skip mana dorks and play control and filtering spells - but I could totally be wrong there.
They're not ideal, but I like that, against decks with answers, it gives me some options. Moreover, with the dorks, you can play a 2cc creature with counter up on turn 2, 3cc on turn 3, and so on. It isn't always the right play, but it is a nice option--especially against electrolyze. I will agree about the blue tension--I'm thinking about upping the breeding pools as a result. Ideally, I want green on turn one--the counter presence isn't strong enough to ignore power of the dorks.
As for a more controlling build, I'm not convinced that would have a lot of legs.
I've been thinking more about this deck and its combo. In all variants we basically fall into the combo, like playing twin without serum visions, or remand, or cryptics. It just doesn't work. As many of us have said on here, Goyf is kind of a weak card in these decks because he is well, generally a 3/4 vanilla beater at best for 2. This deck lacks sorceries. Finding a way to dig for the combo seemed important to me. I also noticed that he more hate I hate out of the board the better I generally did.
Anyway, this got my brain juices flowing and I came up with Commune with the Gods. I think this may be the perfect card for a bant version. It does 4 things for the deck. It puts lands in the yard for KotR, it finds your combo pieces and it fills the yard with a sorcery (among other things) for the goyf. It also allows for other tech like Detention Sphere to be dug for. When combine with Witness it gives you ways to use your yard to your advantage. As a final piece of tech, 1-2 Sun titans at the top end could really keep this deck functioning as the game goes long. I am working on a deck list and will post it if it pans out.
I'll admit, that seems like a neat idea. At 2cc, sorcery, and bringing the card to hand, it might be too slow though. Probably one of the few things outside of drift of phantasms that can get either part of the combo in our colors.
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OK, so here is my list. It has been OK in my testing so far. I’m hoping to get some more rigorous testing in this weekend, but I’d like to see opinions about what could be improved. Notably, no one else seems to be trying to run chord of calling, and, at the very least, I like it. It can fetch one of the combo pieces reliably and at end of turn. Thanks in advance!
I've been messing around with this deck lately. Specifically (since there seem to be a lot of ways to approach this thing), I've been trying chord of calling variants--with middling success. I don't have a lot of time to test, nor do I have a full gauntlet, so I'm not going to push my list. However, I did stumble upon something of a bad idea that has worked a little better than I anticipated, so I wanted to share it and get opinions.
In my list, I've been running 6 mana dorks (heirarchs and birds) and those, combined with the mana potential from retreat to coralhelm, often make me feel like I should have some way of capitalizing on having a lot of mana available. That having been said, options like that tend to get stuck in your hand and reduce your efficiency. Enter Chameleon Colossus--sure he's not as efficient as he used to be, but, he has proven to be very hard to remove for some decks (specifically my jund list). Moreover, retreat lets you tap down blockers, and, combined with exalted, this can lead to big life swings. Although it is a bit win more if you have the combo out, he also presents a second instant-kill threat with Knight (relevant only if you don't make knight unblockable somehow). I have this sneaking suspicion the green giant is a bad idea for some reason, but he's been over-performing as a two-of, so I wanted to share it.
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Crap, the fiend hunter with chord is a pretty good idea. The list is a bit weird. I'm still wrapping my head around wanting both chord and company--but, then again, his list is doing something kinda different than the lists I've seen discussed here.
I feel like your list is trying to do at least one thing too many. It seems like knight/retreat are an odd fit, in that BTL only gets 1/2 the combo. You'd probably be better off focusing on Tooth and Nail and the BTL toolbox rather than adding in an anti-synergistic combo. Moreover, your results suggest that your success suggests that combo didn't really add anything.
I actually had a similar thought--but, it still isn't reliable, and it certainly isn't efficient. While it can get either piece, you need a lot of mana to search anything but the top cards three cards. That having been said, I haven't tried it, but, I have my doubts.
Well, Complex Pants' list seemed intriguing. If you gear more of the deck to be focused on enchantment and creatures, commune makes some sense. Not only can you get combo pieces, but you can also pick occasional removal and put things in the yard. Moreover, there really aren't much better options for sorting through the deck--some people tried serum visions but I think it was generally unimpressive.
...
I think the problem the deck has at the moment is that it is an OK midrange deck with an OK combo (that it has no reliably way of putting together). The whole thing still feels like it is missing something to me. I suspect CoCo makes it better at beatdown while Chord makes it a bit better at combo, but I'm not sure and haven't played both versions.
Then there's naya--where you get a crazier manabase, bolt, and cats.
Then there's abzan--where you get lots of other stuff.
I swear, you can take the deck in a million directions, which is making it hard to determine which is a better route.
Not going into CoCo lets you run a wider range of creatures and more non-creature spells overall. However, CoCo seems to add some non-combo explosiveness to the deck. I (and a few others) have been trying chord of calling--it is slower and less explosive, but more precise. Chord plus retreat gets you the combo, while CoCo plus retreat might get you the combo.
Another alternative with some legs is commune with the gods searches for either combo piece and turns on some graveyard tricks, including making goyf more useful in these builds.
That having been said, I think CoCo builds are currently favored.
Thanks for the info! I really am going to have to squeeze wolfrun in, aren't I?
It feels like your list might be higher on value but lower on pressure. How has it functioned when you don't have/get the combo?
On removal: For those of you who are trying commune with the gods, a relevant option may be temporal isolation--Playable at instant speed, searchable with commune and even blanks auxiliary damage effects. There are two major downsides, however, first, it doesn't really function with potent continuous effects (e.g. Dark Confidant), attack effects (e.g. primeval titan) or activated abilities (e.g.Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker) and, as an enchantment, it can always be removed. Either way, it is efficient and probably solid against aggro. It may not be enough to really be worth it, however.
There's also runed halo--not removal per se, but it can be pretty effective just the same. However, it never removes a blocker, is sorcery speed, and still an enchantment.
As for azorius charm, I tried it in an earlier list. The biggest problem is that the attacking/blocking restriction can be pretty limiting, especially if you are trying to clear a blocker. Moreover, they will just get the card back next turn, so it sucks for killing linchpin creatures. On the other hand, cycling is always nice, and gaining occasional goofy amounts of life doesn't suck either. Still, I wasn't impressed with it overall.
Wrath protection: I remembered a card, and it could be something. Dauntless Escort actually blanks nearly every played sweeper I can think of (except maybe Terminus), as well as being a somewhat smallish beater. The downside is that you telegraph the move before you actually use it (unless you chord or coco him in). Either way, I may try him as a one-of in my chord list.
I don't know why, but I'm a bit scared of unified will, I may give it a shot. As for geist--even with exalted, I never had it where he could survive a blocking goyf--in contrast smiter with one exalted almost always could. Moreover, smiter's imperfect protection could help draw fire away from knight.
Valorous Stance seems like an interesting option. I sort of feel like detention sphere could end up a bit slow and clunky. Anyone tried Bant Charm? I feel like it could be OK, but it is also a bit slow
As for sweeper protection; not that I'm suggesting this is a great idea, but wrap in vigor does blank supreme verdict and damage-based sweepers. It sucks against older wraths and generally anything not wrath specific, so it may not be worth a slot.
My list:
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
Spells
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Path to Exile
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Spell Pierce
2 Chord of Calling
1 Dromoka's command
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Gavony Township
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Forest
3 Plains
1 Island
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stony Silence
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Negate
2 Spellskite
2 Dromoka’s Command
Some thoughts:
In General:
Vs. Jund
Vs. Amulet Bloom
Also--I may try commune with the gods (especially after Complex Pants' results)--I really don't want to run 4 retreats, but I need a way of hitting them more reliably.
They're not ideal, but I like that, against decks with answers, it gives me some options. Moreover, with the dorks, you can play a 2cc creature with counter up on turn 2, 3cc on turn 3, and so on. It isn't always the right play, but it is a nice option--especially against electrolyze. I will agree about the blue tension--I'm thinking about upping the breeding pools as a result. Ideally, I want green on turn one--the counter presence isn't strong enough to ignore power of the dorks.
As for a more controlling build, I'm not convinced that would have a lot of legs.
I'll admit, that seems like a neat idea. At 2cc, sorcery, and bringing the card to hand, it might be too slow though. Probably one of the few things outside of drift of phantasms that can get either part of the combo in our colors.
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
Spells
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Path to Exile
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Spell Pierce
2 Chord of Calling
1 Dromoka's command
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Gavony Township
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Forest
3 Plains
1 Island
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stony Silence
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Negate
2 Spellskite
2 Dromoka’s Command
In my list, I've been running 6 mana dorks (heirarchs and birds) and those, combined with the mana potential from retreat to coralhelm, often make me feel like I should have some way of capitalizing on having a lot of mana available. That having been said, options like that tend to get stuck in your hand and reduce your efficiency. Enter Chameleon Colossus--sure he's not as efficient as he used to be, but, he has proven to be very hard to remove for some decks (specifically my jund list). Moreover, retreat lets you tap down blockers, and, combined with exalted, this can lead to big life swings. Although it is a bit win more if you have the combo out, he also presents a second instant-kill threat with Knight (relevant only if you don't make knight unblockable somehow). I have this sneaking suspicion the green giant is a bad idea for some reason, but he's been over-performing as a two-of, so I wanted to share it.