MTG Salvation

@FortyTwo: Interestingly enough, I just got an e-mail from Reddit saying that ais523 had written me a message. The preview said: "Could you let the thread know that Flooding Waterfall Model is in fact Tur..." and ended there.

So I went to the link, but something got messed up, it said "forbidden (reddit.com) you are not allwowed to do that - access was denied to this resource." So I don't see ais523's actual message, I just have the preview in my e-mail, which certainly does seem to be the start of a sentence saying that the Flooding Waterfall Model is Turing complete.

I know you have interacted with ais523, FortyTwo; maybe you could reach out to him, and find out what he has discovered? If he has proven that the FWM is in fact Turing Complete, that would certainly be a great convenience!

And, it's great news that things seem to be workable for the Soul Collector plan. I guess we just have to go in and see what we can create, and not worry if it falls short of our previous numbers, because we're dealing with a different situation now.

Hmm, do we have 6 dual typed creatures with no overlap? Sorry I've been out of the loop

The second one seems pretty restricting in terms of how far we can go, but we don't have to worry about that right now - I think that takes us back to the old days, when we couldn't resolve multiple arcbonds? So back then it seemed at least doable.

Sorry I've been AWOL for so long! Been preoccupied by some other things.

So what is the current situation? Is there currently no known way to achieve Busy Beaver-ish numbers, or do we have ideas, but are looking for something better?

I think earlier Iijil mentioned some possible ways to go. Were difficulties found in all of them?

Hmm, this may be the megacombo layer deck from back in 2015? If I recall correctly, Rousing of Souls was limited by the fact that it caused the opponent to draw a card, and they are limited to 53 cards in their library.

Wow, great work, although it's not what we were hoping for!

Marcia's setup for the small deck looks interesting - is this a good setup for 60 cards, or should we go with one of Iijil's options?

Aw, that's a shame! I guess Marcia has worked out a small deck in the other thread that can still get Worldfire working with Sanctifier en-Vec, so perhaps there is still the possibility for stages/hyperstage with the Sanctifier. What are the issues we need to deal with in going for a stage or hyperstage?

We would have to prove that the Waterfall Model with those clocks are still Turing-complete. (Probably by creating a universal machine with those clocks) Currently the universal machine requires 6 normal clocks and 1 output clock, and for the output clock we just need 1 creature type, no extra setup needed. So if we could replace one of the normal clocks by a flooding clock or an output clock, we would be in business.

Yeah it looks like we would need to reduce the necessary required clocks to less than 6 for the plan to work. We're only one away, so it could be possible.

Hmm yeah, I think the lack of direction for Life and Limb makes it not matter in what order the effects are applied. So that should stop the DC infinite.

So looking at what we could possibly achieve, it looks like Spellweaver Volute is going to enable recasting of our instants without necessarily sweeping our side of the board, as I don't know of any flashback spells that sweep. Perhaps our enabling sorcery could be something that isn't flashback, but if we are to keep recasting the sweeper sorcery due to some mechanism we have in place, we would probably have a nonsweeper sorcery that we could recast as well. So this probably doesn't work.

Worldfire seems like it could work - the mechanism we had in place in the last deck, where Kaervek's Spite sent our permanents to the graveyard, and Worldfire sent our permanents to exile, and we could only bring cards from exile into the library, probably won't work because of Sanctifier en-Vec. But, we could still have Worldfire be the only/cheapest spell we have that can send our needed resource to the graveyard/exile (a land, for instance). So we could still use Spellweaver Helix for a stage tier.

For our previous gigastage attempts, we had tried to use Goblin Dark-Dwellers or Spell Queller for an extra stage tier. I don't know how feasible these are right now, but they were quite difficult to make work in the gigastage decks. I suppose we should first try to get a hyperstage deck going before we try to add another stage tier.


Edit: Actually, looking at our previous deck, Mox Ruby couldn't be sent into exile by Sanctifier en-Vec, since it doesn't have any color. So the Mox Ruby strategy could still work, I suppose.


Edit: I'm thinking Goblin Dark-Dwellers probably doesn't work, since it can cast Arcbond from the graveyard, but Spell Queller would just exile a spell on the stack, which wouldn't help Arcbond but could help a spell that can be copied (which I suppose would be a spell of mana value less than or equal to 2, assuming we use Sea Gate Stormcaller).

Looks like CaptainMarcia is working on making Last Laugh and Massacre Girl decks in the other thread. So what are the restrictions we face if we use those cards as substitutes for Arcbond?

Making Flaring Pain mandatory would be nice, but I'm not sure how to go about doing so - having it deal damage without a sweep effect is no good, for example.

How does Last Laugh work as a replacement for Arcbond? Arcbond allows the computation to halt when the Arcbond creature dies, but it seems like Last Laugh would either die early if Opalescence was in play, or never die if it wasn't. I suppose the computation can halt when Last Laugh runs out of triggers with a long enough stretch with nothing being put into the graveyard - do we have a way to control that?

So, hopefully we can find a new way to do computation - but if not, then I guess it's Sway of the Stars, coupled with a limited way to recycle it? It looks like we can do the normal stuff we do on the ending sequence to get a few layers of top of Busy Beaver, perhaps ending on combat or the opponent's library.

Thinking about how to get a stage going - the creature token stages dependent on Mimic Vat or Soul Foundry depend on bringing stuff back from exile, so maybe those don't work. But, perhaps we can get stages based on color. Sway of the Stars can put cards back in our hand though, so does that mess up our stages?

A thought that doesn't seem to go anywhere, but I figured I would mention it: We can have one Arcbond, along with Comeuppance, and then the computation will stop when the one Arcbonded creature dies, and to start up again we need to Arcbond another creature. Another way to do it is to have two Arcbonded creatures, and then the Arcbonds will alternate between the two, with no choice ever occurring, until one of them dies. Then again we need another Arcbond to start things up again.

As far as I can tell there's no real advantage to one over the other, other than the latter needing two Arcbonds to start and only one to restart. But, maybe someone will have an idea using this.

Keeping the Arcbond creature around does seem like a promising idea. Leonin Relic-Warder does look like it goes infinite by being able to bring Vedalken Orrery back to the battlefield, allowing us to plop down a creature or whatever. Some cards like Silkwrap are more restrictive on what cards they can exile, but none of the ones I saw had creature types, so they would all die early.

Hmm, so maybe Pull from Eternity if we want to be able to fetch/draw cards from our library? And go for a Worldfire hyperstage.

Then we have to figure out how to get back our stuff with Pull from Eternity after a Worldfire.