But it's still a really cool card design. I'm really, really looking forward to the Kefnet variant when they spoil it.
In regards to the new Teferi, I'm actually kinda meh. Do you really want to be cutting off your opponents from being able to interact with each other? Me, not really.
For a pure Jenara build, Vannifar isn't as high impact as it needs to be, I agree. But I still think it's a great way to get value from some of your spent ETB creatures in Jenara that would otherwise sit around and clog up the field without doing anything meaningful.
In regards to Craterhoof Behemoth, I think it's just a little too top heavy for a Bant Mid-Range strategy. My observation is that you want to build a board state that is tempo oriented and allows you to control the board via creatures. While 'Hoof does close the door against your opponents, I wonder if the 'Hoofer will ever be relevant because by the time you have a Board state that can kill the table via the 'Hoofer's trigger you've probably already established control over the board and the game anyways.
I kinda like the new Boars of death. Besides being totally cool in the art and concept, the fact that they're a 7/7 Vigilance creature that maintains board control via the granted Vigilance is really solid. I think I would prefer it to 'Hoofer in this particular build.
For reals, the new Birthing Pod gives an awesome layer of redundancy for this deck. I'm 100% switching my Arcades deck to Derevi. I've been thinking about it for a while now but this card just pushes Derevi over the top.
I'll definitely echo the sentiment for Mirror Entity. My brother has killed me often enough by suddenly turning his army of value creatures into 6/6's or 7/7's and killing me when I thought I had drained him of all card advantage. I view the Entity as a variable Anthem effect, honestly. The fact that it's instant speed and has such good synergy with Azami just makes it that much better.
@DeadPresident Willbreaker is very powerful with Derevi's ability since you can attack an open opponent and gain control of someone else's creatures. It then becomes a matter of how well you can protect the 'Breaker in order to keep control of the creatures that you stole. While I haven't personally played with the 'Breaker, I think it's a fine choice for the deck since it synergizes so well with Derevi's ability. It's also easily recurred with the primary recursion cards in the deck. It's CMC is a little unattractive but the effect is quite powerful. the 'Breaker also depends on how many times you can consistently trigger Derevi, which leads me to want to evaluate how many creatures I'm running that have some sort of evasion. Derevi herself is worth it, but having at least 2 evasive creatures on the board at any given time will make the 'Breaker shine.
@ZenN
Those 4 cards are absolutely awesome with Derevi's ability and still really good by themselves, so I don't think that the decklist has lost any power by including those cards exclusively based on Derevi's triggered ability.
@RivenEsq
My playgroup learned, quite some time ago, to play around the Refuge. So my experiences were that the Refuge was more of a meh, do-nothing card than actually useful. I don't think anyone disputes your points for the Refuge when it works, though, and I suppose that having that option is better than NOT having it. As econommics states, more is always better than less.
On the topic of non-basic lands discussion, I was kind of narrow in my approach, looking only at lands that generated colorless mana WITH a utility ability. Academy Ruins and Kor Haven are the best ones for Bant, and the brokenness of Gaea's Cradle is historical at this point. For my own Tasigur list, I find that running anywhere between 2-4 non-basics that generate colorless mana hasn't been too detrimental to the deck's performance. Granted, I heavily subscribe to the philosophy of mana dorks and mana rocks, so that certainly influences my opinion.
The more I think about Shalai, the more I like what she does for the deck. I'll be trying to squeeze space into my Arcades list for her because the Hexproof is so valuable.
The list looks solid, ZenN. How has Shalai, Voice of Plenty been for you? I like the board-wide Hexproof she grants a lot and she incidentally becomes an infinite mana outlet as well. Combined with her CMC and her stats, and I think she's a solid card.
On the topic of utility lands:
Since Tri-Color decks are VERY color-hungry by nature, it's absolutely essential that if you ARE running nonbasics that don't add colors to your mana pool they need to be seriously amazing. Like, Volrath's Stronghold kind of amazing. And, unfortunately, I don't see many options in Bant colors that are stunning to me. Maaaaybe Ancient Tomb, but even that's a stretch. Kor Haven is probably the only one I might consider for the deck. My problem with Alchemist's Refuge is that it requires a signficant amount of mana to take advantage of, which often leaves you unable to protect your spell from a Counterspell effect. This can be a pro, since you might be able to force the Blue player to tap out during their turn and cast your REAL spell uncontested. Or it can be a con, since it does require that you commit a significant amount of mana to casting the spell.
Bramble Sovereign is a fine card. It acts, in function, similarly to Deadeye Navigator. They both have the same relative weaknesses in that they depend on other creatures in order to be effective. The pros of the Sovereign is its CMC, the fact that you can trigger it for opponents (in order to generate political goodwill), and it actually creates a body that sticks around on the battlefield. However, it's weak to instant speed removal and requires that all of your relevant creatures come with an additional 1G cost. For Deadeye, the advantage is that once it's Bonded to a creature you can spam that ETB ability at instant speed for as much mana as you want. It's cons are its CMC and the fact that it hits only your creatures.
So, in short, the Sovereign depends on VOLUME of creatures and mana advantage. Deadeye depends on QUALITY of creatures and mana advantage. I hope this makes sense.
Is there an update I'm not aware of? Intuition is certainly legal in multi-player Commander.
I too will confirm that Spellseeker is legit. Even if you run only 10 targets for her, I bet that you'll want those cards available at any point of a game.
Yeah, I'm lucky. My wife is super awesome. I married up in every way possible.
I like the Drake and the Guardian because they're both Larkable. In conjunction with the vast majority of the Defender creatures in my Arcades deck, and it only makes sense to run Lark since I'm ALWAYS going to get a 2-1 out of it dying/LTB. And with the heavier Blink theme I've decided to incorporate in the new iteration, I should get consistent value out of it. I think it's powerful enough to include Birthing Pod and Pod away Arcades to get either it or Karmic Guide every game.
I'm really hopeful that the second Ravnica set will have some awesome Simic and Azorius cards to play with. I'm all about my ETB creatures right now.
I think the Birthing Pod lines are too good not to include. It makes the Pod a one card combo (kinda) with pieces that are all really good by themselves. The synergy between the pieces plus the potential for combo makes it super attractive to me. That and the fact that the Pod lines you've described costs less than $20 to build.
Sorry about your reputation and getting ganged up on. I used to have that reputation until I started building more "casual" decks to play with. So I rarely play my Teferi Chain Veil, Tasigur Flash Hulk, Edric Turns, or Dralnu Storm lists anymore, and instead play my Nicol Bolas ETB.dec, Zacama Super Ramp, Aminatou Planeswalkers, and Grimgrin Pseudo-Black deck. I don't win as much, but I have more fun with my playgroup. One of those players being my wife... Yeah, happy wife happy life, people. It's a real thing.
You and I had very different experiences playing Arcades, my friend. I could never keep him on the table. Playgroup came pretty stacked with removal and wraths.
I experienced that lately, but I attribute that mostly to the fact that I was playing against other more causal decks (i.e. mono-Black Toshiro, Brion Stoutarm, andRadha, Heir to Keld) and Arcades' threat profile is a little more substantial in that particular playgroup. But if I was to play against the normal group of people I play with, where Kaalia, Brago, and Sliver Queen are more prominent, I don't think that Arcades will draw as much attention as those other generals. I've decided to tweak the deck to try and shore up this Commander-centric dependency by adding in the typical Bant ETB stuff. We'll see how it goes, but I do remain hopeful.
Since you're moving to Derevi, who has some pretty obvious combo potential a la Deadeye Navigator, will you be incorporating formal infinite combos to your Bant deck? My Arcades has a ton of fun with Intruder Alarm combos (I felt it appropriate to include since Walls and Alarms usually go together) since I focus more on an ETB approach to the deck and get more use out of my mana dorks with the Alarm that way.
Good luck! I'm sure you'll be able to borrow most of the Primer material here as you create a new thread for your Derevi list.
I really like Arcades. He doesn't really draw a ton of attention (or at least, he shouldn't) because people know I'm playing with Defenders. And being able to have a source of Card Advantage in the Command zone, alongside the high number of blink effects I'm playing in my newly iterated list, has been pretty awesome. There are a surprising number of Defender creatures that create mana, are actually relevant beaters (with Arcades in play), or have some good ETB effects, so it's not as durdly or weak as I thought it would be. Blinking a Wall of Blossoms is pretty fun after attacking with it during the combat step.
Anyways, I'll look forward to the new thread for Derevi.
Welcome back, comrade. Yup, the Commander landscape has definitely adapted and become leaner and meaner. As an example of that, look at the current price of Gilded Drake. I'm pretty sure that card is played only in Commander (maybe as anti-Show & Tell tech in Legacy) and it's above $50 for a played copy. Crazy.
I took some cues from your list as I adjusted my Arcades Wall Ball list. I was trying to make it do something it's not really optimized for (I was trying for a cEDH build, if you can believe it) and have since retooled it and re-adjusted it to come back to earth. It's turned more into a Bant good-stuff/Defender Aggro deck now, and I'm hoping that the changes will be for the better.
But it's still a really cool card design. I'm really, really looking forward to the Kefnet variant when they spoil it.
In regards to the new Teferi, I'm actually kinda meh. Do you really want to be cutting off your opponents from being able to interact with each other? Me, not really.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
In regards to Craterhoof Behemoth, I think it's just a little too top heavy for a Bant Mid-Range strategy. My observation is that you want to build a board state that is tempo oriented and allows you to control the board via creatures. While 'Hoof does close the door against your opponents, I wonder if the 'Hoofer will ever be relevant because by the time you have a Board state that can kill the table via the 'Hoofer's trigger you've probably already established control over the board and the game anyways.
I kinda like the new Boars of death. Besides being totally cool in the art and concept, the fact that they're a 7/7 Vigilance creature that maintains board control via the granted Vigilance is really solid. I think I would prefer it to 'Hoofer in this particular build.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Willbreaker is very powerful with Derevi's ability since you can attack an open opponent and gain control of someone else's creatures. It then becomes a matter of how well you can protect the 'Breaker in order to keep control of the creatures that you stole. While I haven't personally played with the 'Breaker, I think it's a fine choice for the deck since it synergizes so well with Derevi's ability. It's also easily recurred with the primary recursion cards in the deck. It's CMC is a little unattractive but the effect is quite powerful. the 'Breaker also depends on how many times you can consistently trigger Derevi, which leads me to want to evaluate how many creatures I'm running that have some sort of evasion. Derevi herself is worth it, but having at least 2 evasive creatures on the board at any given time will make the 'Breaker shine.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Those 4 cards are absolutely awesome with Derevi's ability and still really good by themselves, so I don't think that the decklist has lost any power by including those cards exclusively based on Derevi's triggered ability.
Huh, I forgot about Archon of Valor's Reach. Pretty awesome card.
@RivenEsq
My playgroup learned, quite some time ago, to play around the Refuge. So my experiences were that the Refuge was more of a meh, do-nothing card than actually useful. I don't think anyone disputes your points for the Refuge when it works, though, and I suppose that having that option is better than NOT having it. As econommics states, more is always better than less.
On the topic of non-basic lands discussion, I was kind of narrow in my approach, looking only at lands that generated colorless mana WITH a utility ability. Academy Ruins and Kor Haven are the best ones for Bant, and the brokenness of Gaea's Cradle is historical at this point. For my own Tasigur list, I find that running anywhere between 2-4 non-basics that generate colorless mana hasn't been too detrimental to the deck's performance. Granted, I heavily subscribe to the philosophy of mana dorks and mana rocks, so that certainly influences my opinion.
The more I think about Shalai, the more I like what she does for the deck. I'll be trying to squeeze space into my Arcades list for her because the Hexproof is so valuable.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
On the topic of utility lands:
Since Tri-Color decks are VERY color-hungry by nature, it's absolutely essential that if you ARE running nonbasics that don't add colors to your mana pool they need to be seriously amazing. Like, Volrath's Stronghold kind of amazing. And, unfortunately, I don't see many options in Bant colors that are stunning to me. Maaaaybe Ancient Tomb, but even that's a stretch. Kor Haven is probably the only one I might consider for the deck. My problem with Alchemist's Refuge is that it requires a signficant amount of mana to take advantage of, which often leaves you unable to protect your spell from a Counterspell effect. This can be a pro, since you might be able to force the Blue player to tap out during their turn and cast your REAL spell uncontested. Or it can be a con, since it does require that you commit a significant amount of mana to casting the spell.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
So, in short, the Sovereign depends on VOLUME of creatures and mana advantage. Deadeye depends on QUALITY of creatures and mana advantage. I hope this makes sense.
@ZeNn
Yo, when's the Derevi Primer coming?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I too will confirm that Spellseeker is legit. Even if you run only 10 targets for her, I bet that you'll want those cards available at any point of a game.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I like the Drake and the Guardian because they're both Larkable. In conjunction with the vast majority of the Defender creatures in my Arcades deck, and it only makes sense to run Lark since I'm ALWAYS going to get a 2-1 out of it dying/LTB. And with the heavier Blink theme I've decided to incorporate in the new iteration, I should get consistent value out of it. I think it's powerful enough to include Birthing Pod and Pod away Arcades to get either it or Karmic Guide every game.
I'm really hopeful that the second Ravnica set will have some awesome Simic and Azorius cards to play with. I'm all about my ETB creatures right now.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Sorry about your reputation and getting ganged up on. I used to have that reputation until I started building more "casual" decks to play with. So I rarely play my Teferi Chain Veil, Tasigur Flash Hulk, Edric Turns, or Dralnu Storm lists anymore, and instead play my Nicol Bolas ETB.dec, Zacama Super Ramp, Aminatou Planeswalkers, and Grimgrin Pseudo-Black deck. I don't win as much, but I have more fun with my playgroup. One of those players being my wife... Yeah, happy wife happy life, people. It's a real thing.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I experienced that lately, but I attribute that mostly to the fact that I was playing against other more causal decks (i.e. mono-Black Toshiro, Brion Stoutarm, andRadha, Heir to Keld) and Arcades' threat profile is a little more substantial in that particular playgroup. But if I was to play against the normal group of people I play with, where Kaalia, Brago, and Sliver Queen are more prominent, I don't think that Arcades will draw as much attention as those other generals. I've decided to tweak the deck to try and shore up this Commander-centric dependency by adding in the typical Bant ETB stuff. We'll see how it goes, but I do remain hopeful.
Since you're moving to Derevi, who has some pretty obvious combo potential a la Deadeye Navigator, will you be incorporating formal infinite combos to your Bant deck? My Arcades has a ton of fun with Intruder Alarm combos (I felt it appropriate to include since Walls and Alarms usually go together) since I focus more on an ETB approach to the deck and get more use out of my mana dorks with the Alarm that way.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I really like Arcades. He doesn't really draw a ton of attention (or at least, he shouldn't) because people know I'm playing with Defenders. And being able to have a source of Card Advantage in the Command zone, alongside the high number of blink effects I'm playing in my newly iterated list, has been pretty awesome. There are a surprising number of Defender creatures that create mana, are actually relevant beaters (with Arcades in play), or have some good ETB effects, so it's not as durdly or weak as I thought it would be. Blinking a Wall of Blossoms is pretty fun after attacking with it during the combat step.
Anyways, I'll look forward to the new thread for Derevi.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I took some cues from your list as I adjusted my Arcades Wall Ball list. I was trying to make it do something it's not really optimized for (I was trying for a cEDH build, if you can believe it) and have since retooled it and re-adjusted it to come back to earth. It's turned more into a Bant good-stuff/Defender Aggro deck now, and I'm hoping that the changes will be for the better.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager