For more, please follow the discussion about this deck in Deck Creation so we don't take away from Esper Mentor/Geist/Delver (this is NOT those decks).
Feel free to discuss this variant in this thread. I created this primer as an Esper Midrange thread and the variations mentioned in it are the ones that were rising to the top (reached Tier 2) back in end of 2014/beginning of 2015, then the metagame shifted and they were no longer prevalent (nor any other midrange deck in esper colors).
Esper Trascendent and Esper Delve are the new two decks I'm looking to use to update this primer, as they are the new decks that are slowly creeping up in play and are proving themselves successful.
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
Needs tuning, but I think Fatal push might give the deck a push ba dum ts. Also, with so many cheap cards in esper colors available, the delver idea might not be all that bad to try again..
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What's not constructive about it? Painful truths is a sorcery speed card that makes me take 3 damage to get three cards and I have to tap out to do that. In the current metagame, we have tons of aggro decks that are coming back because the meta is unknown. Why would I want to cast painful truths and help them when I can play esper charm which doesn't do any damage to me? Also if you are playing a thopter list, thirst for knowledge does a better impression that painful truths does for your deck. I haven't heard a convincing argument to use painful truths in this deck. (painful truths is great in jund/grixis because they don't have this many options for card draw that we do) I have critiqued the card well and I have played with the card in my esper mentor list and I ran into all of the issues that I described.
Let me put it this way: You played the card in a different deck that happens to be in the same colors.
Do you think that what test bad for Grixis control is also bad for Grixis Delver? How about Naya Zoo and Naya burn? Junk Midrange and Junk Little Kid? Jund Midrange and Jund Goblins?
The fact that 2 decks share the same colors doesn't imply the card problems/rewards will be similar between them. If you don't understand that, I don't expect you to understand why a heavy discard build that works mainly at sorcery speed prefers Painful Truths over Esper Charm.
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I'm not playing thopter sword and I'm playing more than 6 maindeck counters. Also esper charm kills stony silence which is pretty important for your deck I'd wager.
This is the reason I didn't reply to you. You're criticizing a card (and giving it a bad value) from a deck you are not even playing. That isn't constructive at all.
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I don't see why painful truths is in an esper list when we have esper charm
Well draw 3 is more useful than draw 2, but Charm may work as well, or even better (because of the modes). I don't like esper charm that much though, the manacost is too restrictive.
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
Well this happened Potential to revive this deck in a higher tier level is on the horizon!
And not just that, there is also this:
Declaration in Stone - Good against Toolbox/CoCo decks. Nice removal against high end creatures, also against persist/graveyard shenanigans. To the Slaughter - Good against Delve/BGx/Tron. Decks that don't go wide or apply pressure in the form a single threat (Creature/PW) Heir of Falkenrath/Heir to the Night - Good T2 play in a delve heavy/GY shenanigans version of BUW (Jace/Snaps/Tas/Angler/Lili) Thing in the Ice/Awoken Horror - Good in non-delve based decks, more oriented to control. Applies pressure in a 3 turn clock and provides an early wall against aggro and a Whelming Wave in mid/late game. Invasive Surgery - Great sideboard card against decks like Scapeshift or that rely in sorcery strategies to set up. Just the Wind - Pairs up really good with Heir and Lili in delve builds.
That's pretty much all I am interested in from the spoilers. It sounds like there is going to be a good shake-up in modern's deckbuilding after SOI realeases and Eldrazi gets hammered.
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
Hello Esper fellas, I've been thinking about reviving this deck. I am uncertain whether I want to be playing geist + Bob and a lower curve or go higher and more control-y.
I won a PPTQ this weekend with a Mentor/Delve version of the deck. The list was tweaked by a friend, but he didn't end up playing the deck in the end. Mentors were really insane in a few games but I ended up siding them out quite a lot of the time too, especially for removal heavy matchups.
That being said, Esper Twix is an entirely different beast and has been referred to as Esper's version of Junk. Ali Aintrazi recently interviewed me about my brew and the article is available on TCG Player. The updated list can be found on Facebook.com/EsperTwix
I'm taking it to Charlotte this weekend.
Wish you the best at GP, don't be afraid of posting links about the archetype. It looks like a sweet spin to the Esper midrange builds we've been seen lately, so I'll include it in the primer when I update it any time I can this week.
Whats funny is with the lilis, tasigurs and souls, the Esper control thread is going to tell him to come right back here with his "midrange" deck
I believe he wants a different control approach, and I actually like it. But the thing is he's trying to get to a pure control spot and we're not, yet on the other thread that's their goal. In the Esper Control thread -and I don't know why- they seem to hate Liliana of the Veil and Lingering Souls. I understand that Lili and countermagic don't really get along all that much, but she could be a hell of a Sideboard card.
My advice:
If you want to hold up mana and cards in had for a pure control list, cut lilis off the deck or move them to the board.
I'd Cut one Sphinx's Revelation.
I wouldn't run more than 2 Snapcasters with that spell suite
Your deck is 62 Cards MB (Maybe -1 Snapcaster -1 Rev?)
You should be running 25/26 lands instead of 24
Supreme Verdict can be relevant
Some number of Think Twice/Anticipate seem reasonable
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I've been playing this deck for a few weeks now. Lately my magic skills have dropped to the ground (mostly due to the fact that I play super tired). Hence my experience with the deck has not been the best. I actually keep losing and losing and I can't figure why. Probably I am playing the deck wrongly or I can't understand its basic concepts, I don't know. I usually play Faeries or UWR control/midrange, and I though I should be able to manage this deck. Apparently I am awful and i can't. Anyway, I was playing a pretty stock list of the deck and i figured maybe I should tweak it to fit my playstyle more? What I found frustrating at times was the lack of counters so I though I'd try playing some. What do you think of this version?
As a Fae/UWR lover, I can imagine that you're trying to play a conservative game, when the deck tries to be a bit more proactive than the ones you mentioned. Mentor will reward you more if you play a proactive game rather than reactive, it will still be good in the right situation to hold cards and resources to respond/play EoT, but more likely (and especially in the kill turn) you will want to cast 3+ spells in your own turn.
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Feel free to discuss this variant in this thread. I created this primer as an Esper Midrange thread and the variations mentioned in it are the ones that were rising to the top (reached Tier 2) back in end of 2014/beginning of 2015, then the metagame shifted and they were no longer prevalent (nor any other midrange deck in esper colors).
Esper Trascendent and Esper Delve are the new two decks I'm looking to use to update this primer, as they are the new decks that are slowly creeping up in play and are proving themselves successful.
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Path to Exile
2x Fatal Push
4x Serum Visions
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Remand
3x Mana Leak
1x Dismember
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Lingering Souls
1x Murderous Cut
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Watery Grave
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Godless Shrine
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Shambling Vent
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Fatal Push
2x Stony Silence
2x Collective Brutality
2x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Ravenous Trap
Needs tuning, but I think Fatal push might give the deck a push ba dum ts. Also, with so many cheap cards in esper colors available, the delver idea might not be all that bad to try again..
Let me put it this way: You played the card in a different deck that happens to be in the same colors.
Do you think that what test bad for Grixis control is also bad for Grixis Delver? How about Naya Zoo and Naya burn? Junk Midrange and Junk Little Kid? Jund Midrange and Jund Goblins?
The fact that 2 decks share the same colors doesn't imply the card problems/rewards will be similar between them. If you don't understand that, I don't expect you to understand why a heavy discard build that works mainly at sorcery speed prefers Painful Truths over Esper Charm.
This is the reason I didn't reply to you. You're criticizing a card (and giving it a bad value) from a deck you are not even playing. That isn't constructive at all.
Well draw 3 is more useful than draw 2, but Charm may work as well, or even better (because of the modes). I don't like esper charm that much though, the manacost is too restrictive.
Ancestral Vision 3 for 1
Painful Truths up to 3 for 1
Lingering Souls 4 for 1
Snapcaster Mage 2 for 1
Cryptic Command 2 for 1
Jace, Vryn's prodigy X for 1
Supreme Verdict X for 1
Sphinx's Revelation X for 1
Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek combo x for 1 and a great win con.
And also great access to 1 for 1 trade offs:
Thoguhtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Dismember, Doom Blade, Spell Snare
And great tempo plays:
Remand, Serum Visions, Path to Exile, Liliana of the Veil
Now the question is how to mash all this cards together (if all of them) and how many of each...
This would be my starting point:
4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Koizlek
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Path to Exile
2x Spell Snare
2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4x Remand
3x Thopter Foundry
2x Sword of the Meek
1x Painful Truths
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Thirst for Knowledge
4x Lingering Souls
2x Creeping Tar Pir
3x Darkslick Shores
1x Seachrome Coast
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Watery Grave
1x Godless Shrine
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Darkblast
2x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Dispel
2x Negate
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Batterskull
And not just that, there is also this:
Declaration in Stone - Good against Toolbox/CoCo decks. Nice removal against high end creatures, also against persist/graveyard shenanigans.
To the Slaughter - Good against Delve/BGx/Tron. Decks that don't go wide or apply pressure in the form a single threat (Creature/PW)
Heir of Falkenrath/Heir to the Night - Good T2 play in a delve heavy/GY shenanigans version of BUW (Jace/Snaps/Tas/Angler/Lili)
Thing in the Ice/Awoken Horror - Good in non-delve based decks, more oriented to control. Applies pressure in a 3 turn clock and provides an early wall against aggro and a Whelming Wave in mid/late game.
Invasive Surgery - Great sideboard card against decks like Scapeshift or that rely in sorcery strategies to set up.
Just the Wind - Pairs up really good with Heir and Lili in delve builds.
That's pretty much all I am interested in from the spoilers. It sounds like there is going to be a good shake-up in modern's deckbuilding after SOI realeases and Eldrazi gets hammered.
This is where I am atm:
4x Path to Exile
4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Spell Snare
2x Doom Blade
3x Remand
3x Mana Leak
1x Dismember
1x Supreme Verdict
Creatures:
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Lingering Souls
2x Restoration Angel
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Celestial Colonnade
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Watery Grave
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Godless Shrine
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Disfigure
1x Dispel
2x Negate
1x Celestial Purge
2x Stony Silence
1x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Batterskull
Vs Delver:
-1 Restoration Angel, -2 Vendilion Clique, -3 Remand
+2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Dispel, +2 Negate, +1 Supreme Verdict
Vs BGx:
-4 Thoughtseize, -2 Inquisition of Kozilek, -3 Remand
+1 Batterskull, +1 Baneslayer Angel, +2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, +1 Supreme verdict, +1 Sphinx's Revelation, +1 Celestial Purge, +2 Negate
Vs Eldrazi:
-3 Remand, -2 Restoration Angel
+1 Batterskull, +1 Baneslayer Angel, +2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, +1 Supreme verdict
Vs Tron:
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek, -3 Mana Leak, -2 Spell Snare
+2 Negate, +2 Stony Silence, +2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, +1 Sphinx's Revelation
Vs Burn:
-4 Thoughtseize, -3 Remand
+1 Disfigure, +1 Dispel, +2 Negate, +1 Celestial Purge, +1 Baneslayer Angel, +1 Batterskull
Vs Ad Nauseam:
-4 Path to Exile, -2 Doom Blade, -1 Dismember, -1 Supreme Verdict
+1 Dispel, +2 Negate, +2 Stony Silence, +2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, +1 Sphinx's Revelation
Vs Scapeshift:
-1 Dismember, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 Path to Exile
+1 Dispel, +2 Negate, +1 Sphinx's Revelation, +1 Batterskull, +1 Baneslayer Angel
Vs Affinity:
-2 Restoration Angel, -4 Thoughtseize
+2 Engeineered Explosives, +1 Disfigure, +2 Stony Silence, +1 Supreme Verdict
Vs Merfolk:
-3 Remand, -3 Mana Leak
+2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Disfigure, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Baneslayer Angel, +1 Batterskull
Vs Grixis Control:
-2 Doom Blade, -1 Dismember
+1 Dispel, +2 Negate
Vs Infect:
-3 Mana Leak, -3 Remand
+2 Engineered Explosisves, +1 Disfigure, +1 Dispel, +2 Negate
Vs Zoo:
-3 Remand, -3 Mana Leak
+2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Batterskull, +1 Baneslayer Angel, +1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Vs Living End:
-2 Spell Snare, -2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Dispel, +2 Negate, +1 Supreme Verdict
Vs Junk Company:
-2 Restoration Angel, -3 Remand, -2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
+2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Disfigure, +1, Dispel, +2 Negate, +1 Supreme Verdict
Vs Bogles:
-4 Path to Exile, -1 Dismember, -1 Restoration Angel
+2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Supreme Verdict, +2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, +1 Baneslayer Angel
Only thing that concerns me is getting answers for enchantments like Leyline of Sanctity or prison cards like Suppression Field. Maybe 1 or 2 Disenchants should be on the board.
I don't know if Esper can outshine Eldrazi, Tron and the remains of BGx in this new metagame to come, but I believe we can stand a good chance.
Could you write a report about the PPTQ? Was Languish intended or is it a replacement of Damnation?
Pretty cool list, it looks very strong.
Wish you the best at GP, don't be afraid of posting links about the archetype. It looks like a sweet spin to the Esper midrange builds we've been seen lately, so I'll include it in the primer when I update it any time I can this week.
Esper Twix Article @ TCGPlayer
Keep up with the brews!
I believe he wants a different control approach, and I actually like it. But the thing is he's trying to get to a pure control spot and we're not, yet on the other thread that's their goal. In the Esper Control thread -and I don't know why- they seem to hate Liliana of the Veil and Lingering Souls. I understand that Lili and countermagic don't really get along all that much, but she could be a hell of a Sideboard card.
My advice:
You posted and asked about a 'pure control' list. This is the thread you're looking for:
Esper Control
As a Fae/UWR lover, I can imagine that you're trying to play a conservative game, when the deck tries to be a bit more proactive than the ones you mentioned. Mentor will reward you more if you play a proactive game rather than reactive, it will still be good in the right situation to hold cards and resources to respond/play EoT, but more likely (and especially in the kill turn) you will want to cast 3+ spells in your own turn.