I like the list as it reminds of Esper transcendent - without Narset . Would Sorin, solemn vistor be an option as you have quite a bit of tokens? Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is pet card of mine but I left him out in my Esper Narset build. How does he fare for you?
Hello everyone, I'm pretty new to the deck and have gone through a lot of the posts here but wanted to ask about Dark Confidant.
What are the advantages / disadvantages to playing it in midrange? It seems to work quite well with cheap discard and removal as well as Monastary Mentor as a two of, as a finisher alongside manlands. Is it just because of Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
Thanks!
Hey!
Yes, delve creatures are a major concern when you run Dark Confidant. I don't have experience with Bob but I don't think that he's unplayable, it sounds actually very reasonable to run him alongside with Monastery Mentor. The question is only, how good those two are with the soon to be available Fatal Push because both creatures don't generate value immediately. Of course, both can take over the game if left unchecked, but they enable our opponents' removal (similar to Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in my list). My concern would be that we shouldn't run too many creatures that are susceptible to common removal and that don't generate immediate value.
On the other hand, if Tron and Valakut decks gain more popularity due to the recent B&R update, that could very well be an option. Dark Confidant puts more pressure on non-interactive decks than Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (although I think the latter is more flexible and well suited for the delve plan). Instead of Mentor you could also try Geist of Saint Traft. He should become better in BUW with Fatal Push available.
That Lilly tech is so hot and honestly never occured to me before. Dose everything we want and recurs our threats.
Geist is so bad right now though. With all those cards dumping in to the graveyard have you considered replacing them with 2 zombie fish a snappy and a four manna Walker like Sorin or the alley of Zendicar to pump souls?
Yes, Liliana, the last Hope was great against creature based or grindy decks and I can really recommend her.
I agree that Geist of Saint Traft has a wide spectrum from being awesome to being almost useless. But why do you think he's particularly bad at the moment? Anyways, I like your suggestions, although I wouldn't want to focus too much on GY interactions but 1 Gurmag Angler or +1 Snapcaster Mage should be fine. One of the strength of this deck is the diversity of the threats such that GY hate doesn't cripple it completely. Maybe 2 Vendilion Clique and a 4 cmc walker?
The spoiler of Fatal Push from AER inspired me to rethink my previous BUW midrange list. One of my main complaints was the lack of a cheap and efficient removal spell that doesn't ramp our opponents on turn 1 to 2. Fatal Push could help although it is still no Lightning bolt
I wonder how many cheap spells does one need to turn on Delve? I have a configuration that has fewer cheap spells than the average list or cheap spells that I don't want to exile if possible, because it has Flashback or it is a possible SCM-target like PtE or Negate. Essentially I only have 4 Serum Visions and 8 Fetchlands, but no IoK or Thought Scour. Is Tasigur working in such an environment?
I'd say that depends on your build. How many delve creatures are you running?
However, I believe Thought scour is very important and should not necessarily be missed out. It has strong synergies with Snapcaster Mage and Lingering Souls (I consider the latter one of the main reasons to play esper).
Match 1 vs. Sultai with goyf, snapcaster.
Went 2-0. Lingering souls was a beast, so was Geist of Saint Traft.
In: Relic and Needle (against his Lili's or Manlands)
Out: Disfigure
Match 2 vs. Affinity
Lost 0-2. In game 2, he had a super threat-ladden hand with no lands but 1 Mox Opal. Then, he drew two manlands (he needed one more mana to be able to cast either Plating, Overseer or Ravager of which I could only remove two).
In: Needle, Disenchant, Timely
Out: Dismember, Geist
More Affinity hate should help for the next time
Match 3 vs. Lantern
1-1. 3rd game, he was on 1 life before time went down...
In: Negate, Disenchant, Anguished
Out: Removal
Difficult game and I made some misplays. Stony and Engineered would have helped here. Jace could act as super slow wincon here. The best way is probably to discard/remove his bridge and drop a fast threat like Geist.
Match 4 vs. Norin-Soul Sisters-Human
Lost 1-2 against a very good player and I made some bad decisions (Path-Snap-Path to ramp him into his Purphoros, God of the Forge and Ranger of Eos, which enabled his blinking insanity). Liliana, the last Hope was an allstar here (she can remove Norin the wary with her +1).
In: Timely
Out: Thoughtseize -> A bad decision!! I could no longer discard Purphoros or Ranger.
The deck was super fun and I think it is very strong against other midrange strategies. I will test and sculpt it further. If you have suggestion, go ahead and post them.
I like where this is going but there is strange things in this deck. Why 1 scour when you play 3 tasigur and 4 souls? IMHO V-Clique is a more impactful card than the second brutality, 3 disfigure seems like a lot in the main, needs some blessed alliiance, and I would recommend Shizo, Death's Storehouse to compliment Tasigur, Geist and V-Clique.
The over-performers were Liliana, the Last Hope, Collective Brutality and Lingering Souls. Geist of Saint Traft was also excellent but a bit disappointing vs. creature heavy decks. What was missing (I played the deck also at a second tournament) in the deck was un-clunky removal or mass removal. I haven't tested Blessed Alliance yet. But I actually think some sweepers in the side might help (Damnation, Languish or the new -3/-3 + free cast 3 cmc spell from AER?! Yahenni's Expertise I think (-> Wrath and drop Geist, Jace, Lili or Souls seems good)) but the good ones cost 4 mana. The deck feels good, but it took me too long to stabilize against go-wide strategies. Infect is almost a cake-walk with this list though
V-Clique might also be an interesting choice for the SB against big mana decks in place of Souls.
Currently, the deck is disassembled because I built a Grixis Jace list.
I (and many before me ) found that Lingering Souls helps tremendously against GBx. Maybe you could play some main or side them in (for Wasteland Strangler?) against them?
Tron is definitively a though MU. For me, Spreading Seas was underwhelming against Tron when I played a slower version with Sword-Thopter combo. Maybe, it goes along well with a fast clock like Geist of Saint Traft. I am curious if anyone has tried out ceremonious rejection?
Here is a list I have been having some fun with. Queller seems awesome in this shell.
Interesting, I thought about Spell queller myself. Do you have no problems to close out the games with him?
Do you side Queller out against Jund or Junk?
Match 1 vs. Sultai with goyf, snapcaster.
Went 2-0. Lingering souls was a beast, so was Geist of Saint Traft.
In: Relic and Needle (against his Lili's or Manlands)
Out: Disfigure
Match 2 vs. Affinity
Lost 0-2. In game 2, he had a super threat-ladden hand with no lands but 1 Mox Opal. Then, he drew two manlands (he needed one more mana to be able to cast either Plating, Overseer or Ravager of which I could only remove two).
In: Needle, Disenchant, Timely
Out: Dismember, Geist
More Affinity hate should help for the next time
Match 3 vs. Lantern
1-1. 3rd game, he was on 1 life before time went down...
In: Negate, Disenchant, Anguished
Out: Removal
Difficult game and I made some misplays. Stony and Engineered would have helped here. Jace could act as super slow wincon here. The best way is probably to discard/remove his bridge and drop a fast threat like Geist.
Match 4 vs. Norin-Soul Sisters-Human
Lost 1-2 against a very good player and I made some bad decisions (Path-Snap-Path to ramp him into his Purphoros, God of the Forge and Ranger of Eos, which enabled his blinking insanity). Liliana, the last Hope was an allstar here (she can remove Norin the wary with her +1).
In: Timely
Out: Thoughtseize -> A bad decision!! I could no longer discard Purphoros or Ranger.
The deck was super fun and I think it is very strong against other midrange strategies. I will test and sculpt it further. If you have suggestion, go ahead and post them.
I like the list as it reminds of Esper transcendent - without Narset
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is pet card of mine but I left him out in my Esper Narset build. How does he fare for you?
Hey!
Yes, delve creatures are a major concern when you run Dark Confidant. I don't have experience with Bob but I don't think that he's unplayable, it sounds actually very reasonable to run him alongside with Monastery Mentor. The question is only, how good those two are with the soon to be available Fatal Push because both creatures don't generate value immediately. Of course, both can take over the game if left unchecked, but they enable our opponents' removal (similar to Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in my list). My concern would be that we shouldn't run too many creatures that are susceptible to common removal and that don't generate immediate value.
On the other hand, if Tron and Valakut decks gain more popularity due to the recent B&R update, that could very well be an option. Dark Confidant puts more pressure on non-interactive decks than Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (although I think the latter is more flexible and well suited for the delve plan). Instead of Mentor you could also try Geist of Saint Traft. He should become better in BUW with Fatal Push available.
Yes, Liliana, the last Hope was great against creature based or grindy decks and I can really recommend her.
I agree that Geist of Saint Traft has a wide spectrum from being awesome to being almost useless. But why do you think he's particularly bad at the moment? Anyways, I like your suggestions, although I wouldn't want to focus too much on GY interactions but 1 Gurmag Angler or +1 Snapcaster Mage should be fine. One of the strength of this deck is the diversity of the threats such that GY hate doesn't cripple it completely. Maybe 2 Vendilion Clique and a 4 cmc walker?
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Concealed Courtyard
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Shambling Vent
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Countersquall
2 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
4 Thought Scour
Sorcery
1 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
Creature
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Planeswalker
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Collective Brutality
2 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Languish
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 To the Slaughter
Countersquall could be changed with MB Engineered Explosives or more discard (4th Inquisition of Kozilek)? SB is just a rough draft.
I don't think that too many Fatal Push are great because revolt will not trigger always (even with the synergy between the disappearing angel token from Geist of Saint Traft). Therefore, I suggest 2 - 3.
I'd say that depends on your build. How many delve creatures are you running?
However, I believe Thought scour is very important and should not necessarily be missed out. It has strong synergies with Snapcaster Mage and Lingering Souls (I consider the latter one of the main reasons to play esper).
Hi and thanks for the good suggestions! The list was indeed sub-optimal because I couldn't acquire all the pieces in time. I think, I would throw out the Serum Visions and complete the playset of Thought scour. Also, Celestial Colonnade should be Creeping Tar Pit. And you are also right with Disfigure, one of them should be another Inquisition of Kozilek.
The over-performers were Liliana, the Last Hope, Collective Brutality and Lingering Souls. Geist of Saint Traft was also excellent but a bit disappointing vs. creature heavy decks. What was missing (I played the deck also at a second tournament) in the deck was un-clunky removal or mass removal. I haven't tested Blessed Alliance yet. But I actually think some sweepers in the side might help (Damnation, Languish or the new -3/-3 + free cast 3 cmc spell from AER?! Yahenni's Expertise I think (-> Wrath and drop Geist, Jace, Lili or Souls seems good)) but the good ones cost 4 mana. The deck feels good, but it took me too long to stabilize against go-wide strategies. Infect is almost a cake-walk with this list though
V-Clique might also be an interesting choice for the SB against big mana decks in place of Souls.
Currently, the deck is disassembled because I built a Grixis Jace list.
Tron is definitively a though MU. For me, Spreading Seas was underwhelming against Tron when I played a slower version with Sword-Thopter combo. Maybe, it goes along well with a fast clock like Geist of Saint Traft. I am curious if anyone has tried out ceremonious rejection?
Interesting, I thought about Spell queller myself. Do you have no problems to close out the games with him?
Do you side Queller out against Jund or Junk?
I've been following this thread quietly but now I have (almost) finished my Esper Midrange deck (inspired by this).
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Godless shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Darkslick shores
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Shambling Vent
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Disruption
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Disfigure
4 Path to Exile
2 Collective Brutality
1 Dismember
1 Tribute to Hunger
Card selection/GY fueling
4 Serum Visions
1 Thought scour
Value
2 Liliana, the last Hope
4 Lingering Souls
2 Stony Silence
2 Negate
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Pithing Needle
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
The list is not yet optimal: I would replace some cards with Liliana of the Veil, most notably Tribute to Hunger. Creeping Tar Pit should replace one of my current manlands. Further, I want to go up with Thought scour.
With the above list, I went 1-1-2 at a small event. However, I did not have the sideboard (Stony Silence was Disenchant, no Blessed Alliance and Engineered Explosives).
Match 1 vs. Sultai with goyf, snapcaster.
Went 2-0. Lingering souls was a beast, so was Geist of Saint Traft.
In: Relic and Needle (against his Lili's or Manlands)
Out: Disfigure
Match 2 vs. Affinity
Lost 0-2. In game 2, he had a super threat-ladden hand with no lands but 1 Mox Opal. Then, he drew two manlands (he needed one more mana to be able to cast either Plating, Overseer or Ravager of which I could only remove two).
In: Needle, Disenchant, Timely
Out: Dismember, Geist
More Affinity hate should help for the next time
Match 3 vs. Lantern
1-1. 3rd game, he was on 1 life before time went down...
In: Negate, Disenchant, Anguished
Out: Removal
Difficult game and I made some misplays. Stony and Engineered would have helped here. Jace could act as super slow wincon here. The best way is probably to discard/remove his bridge and drop a fast threat like Geist.
Match 4 vs. Norin-Soul Sisters-Human
Lost 1-2 against a very good player and I made some bad decisions (Path-Snap-Path to ramp him into his Purphoros, God of the Forge and Ranger of Eos, which enabled his blinking insanity). Liliana, the last Hope was an allstar here (she can remove Norin the wary with her +1).
In: Timely
Out: Thoughtseize -> A bad decision!! I could no longer discard Purphoros or Ranger.
The deck was super fun and I think it is very strong against other midrange strategies. I will test and sculpt it further. If you have suggestion, go ahead and post them.