Kaya's Guile is always a 2 for 1, and having MD graveyard hate + lifegain seems powerful enough in today's meta.
Silent Clearing also patches one of BW main weaknesses, the unability to dig for answers. I'll be trying 4 but I think it'll be reduced to 2 in the end.
Nether Spirit looks interesting in creatureless builds.
Ransack the Lab seems decent for digging, though I'm not sure if it'll make the cut.
Fulminator Mage, Damping Sphere, Extirpate/Surgical/Lost Legacy and Despark are all good against Tron. I'm actually intriged about Despark, I'm not really sure if it's any good but there seems to be many more cmc4+ cards that I thought.
EE and Damnation are also really good. I've also tried Settle the Wreckage but it seems too predictable on T4 when we need it. Bontu's is another decent option. Cleasing Nova seems too slow, though.
I actually really like Kambal, but I can't find a spot on my deck for the Honor Guards, so I might just cut them out if I start facing less combo and burn. Or I might cut the Fulminators all together since I already have many things to dream about beating Tron.
It's actually really interesting that he isn't running Damnations or anything to deal with permanents. I really like the Tocatly Honor Guard tech, though.
This is the SB I'm running right now, 2 FM and 2 DS that may turn into 4 FM (DS has actually been really good against Phoenix and Storm however). Now I only need to find room for the Honor Guards.
I think it is because he hasn't posted the SB yet, or at least that's what he said on Twitter. It's quite an interesting take on the deck, though I'm not that convinced about maindecking 2 LtLH with only 4 creatures. Gideon over Sorin is another surprising choice since the lifegain seems quite important with 4 Bobs, 4 Seizes and 14 >=3cmc cards.
Seems that we're going to have another expansion where there's nothing for BW Midrange. Anyways, seems that the other day there was a list doing 5-0 on MTGO, though it was a more control focused version of the deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-orzhov-kaya#paper
I have also been experimenting with Mentor of the Meek with somehow decent results. It is indeed somehow slow, but combined with Bitterblossom and LS it becomes a quite decent engine for card advantage. This is my most recent list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1705041#paper
I still have trouble agains Tron and combo, though the UW Control, BG and Phoenix MU are quite decent. We still need a good way to grow big and apply pressure beyond the tokens, and of course a removal for permanents that can somehow compete with Assassins Trophy. Maybe in 5 years when we revisit Ravnica.
Fulminator at the very least trades with most aggro creatures in a worst-case scenario. I think that we're not really so much arguing over Fulminator vs FoR, but FoR vs Mutavault. I'd probably not mind replacing Vault with another Mutavault to have 3 total in my list.
I'm not really arguing FoR vs Mutavault nor if we should run land destruction MD, but if that land destruction should be on a land spot or on a 3cmc spot. The curve of the deck is really high, and having 10-11 3cmc cards and 4-5 4cmc cards results in a lot of hands where you can do nothing until turn 3-4.
One thing I'm thinking is that Damping Sphere is probably preferable to most of the alternatives in general.
Damping Sphere might be really good against Storm and Tron, though I find Stony Silence + GY removal (Spellbomb + RIP) more reliable, since Storm doesn't usually play enchantment removal and you can shut up Oblivion Stone and maps against Tron. That said, I wouldn't mind to try it as a 1-off on my SB since it is pretty versatile.
I'm trying both Mutavault and FoR on the same mana base, as well as Gideon AoZ as a finisher. I've also been testing 2 Fulminators MD, though, just to see if they perform better than I think, but I don't have conclusive results yet. I'd like to add the 3rd TSeize, I'll test if 3 Sorins and 2 Gideons are really necessary and if not I'll swap one of them.
Those are 18 black and 16 white sources. I'd prefer to have 1-2 more basic lands, though.
Edit: the problem with Bog is that you don’t want it as a land drop but as a way to remove a gy later in the game, so if you draw it on you opening hand makes it more difficult to curve out.
Unfortunate to hear about your results, but at least it was a good learning experience. For posterity’s sake, would you mind posting what decks you went up against? I can kind of sort of figure out that you played vs Control and Midrange, but that’s about it. I definitely like the 1 maindeck Nihil Spellbomb, that's a smart choice.
Of course. I haven't had time to write the report, but in summary it was something like this:
R1 - UB Midrange: This match up wasn't bad. I lacked firepower, though, so we ended up 1-1. Nihil Spellbomb and FoR were all stars in this match up. Some interesting cards he played MD were FoR, Mutavaul, Creeping Tar Pit and Bitterblossom MD.
R2 - Mono G Tron: Having FoR MD in this match up worked as good as I could expect, and 6 answers to Tron lands post board (3 FoR + 3 Fulminators) really helped. Again, I didn't have enough firepower, he could eventually hit an Ugin, destroy my tokens and win.
R3 - Storm: The Spellbomb shined in this match up, but I would have loved to draw more gy hate.
R4 - Titanshift: He didn't find a way to combo me before I could disrupt his whole hand. Watch out for the Ballistas, though.
R5 - Jund: This one was really difficult since he drew 2-3 AssTrophies per match, and finished with Raging Ravine and the Elves.
R6 - UW Control: The first match was great, but again, on the second one I didn't draw anything to finish the game after I had it under control, so he topdecked Baneslayer Angel and Teferi and won. We ended up 1-1. FoR, Spellbomb and Kambal worked amazingly well here.
The takeovers for me are that I need a more reliable finisher and that teching Spellbombs was a good choice, even if I didn't do well.
Right, and FoR is just a colorless land for the matches where it’s not, -and- it’s harder to sideboard with them, too.
Fulminator makes for a great threat and allows us to be more proactive. It’s a 3 mana spell that comes down as a 2/2 and always threatens. I’m glad that you are liking Field of Ruin, but unfortunately, you’re losing a ton of firepower with the loss of the Mutavaults.
My concern is that you’re dropping Mutavaults for Field of Ruin, so you lose the ability to turn the corner, which then further warrants more changes main deck. You’ll need to add more white mana for multiple Gideons, and I’m not sure what you would drop to change it.
That being said, like you, I still rarely find a use for Vault of the Archangel. This deck uses its mana nearly every turn and I haven’t really found too many spots where I just happen to have 5 mana open to activate it.
You are right, but FoR doesn't usually screw or curve (our mana base is already pretty consistent) but having 10-11 3cmc cards can make some hands too slow. And having both FoR and Fulminator really helps against Tron. In the MUps were Fulminator is not helpful (mostly Aggro), it's spot could be a removal or a cantrip, while FoR is still a land that doesn't hurt us much. However, I really missed Mutavaults, and I'm thinking about doing -1 VotA and -1 FoR to add +2 Mutavault. I might try 2 md Fulminators, though, if I'm able to find a place for them, since they could free me some spots in the SB and, as you say, it's still a good card.
The results were... Well, really bad. However, I got some insights that might be interesting. The deck performed really well during the first few turns, but when the board was controlled, it lacked the speed to kill my opponents before they could recover. Almost every match can be resumed that way, really.
I had a Nihil Spellbomb teched on the last minute, and it resulted to be amazing. It's a great response against Storm and Snappies, as well as a way to not be completely dead against Dredge on game 1. I'd like to add a couple more MD, maybe replacing the Whispers since they have the same role.
Another card that resulted to be amazing was Field of Ruin. It helped a lot killing Azcantas and manlands. However, I really missed Mutavaults to pressure my opponents. On the other hand, I never had an opportunity to use VotA.
Since killpower seems to be what's lacking, I'm thinking about adding +3 Gideon, AoZ on the main deck. However, that makes it difficult to fit the Spellbombs. I'm not completely sold on the Fulminators MD, though, since FoR achieves the same results for the decks where FM is needed but it's not a just 2/2 for 3 mana for the matches where it's not.
The problem is that the 3cmc curve is already topped with both Lilianas and Lingering Souls, which only leaves free spots on the >=4cmc (taken by Sorin / Gideon) and <=2cmc (which is much better in BG with the Goyfs and Oozes). I haven't find a good 2cmc creature that acts as a finisher, though. The rats are interesting, but you need card advantage and not needing the cards in hand for them to work. You also need Mutavaults, which I think are inferior to FoR since the latter can act as a removal for manlands and as a way to consolidate the victory against Tron.
In fact, let's hope for a good 1-2cmc orzhov creature, since >3cmc ones are easier to find.
I'm not convinced about Pack Rat, it does nothing when it ETB, it's not a great top deck and it's easy to kill until you have a copy, and even then a Maelstrom Pulse just deals with it.
I've been taking a look at different finishers. The cards I've been considering are Gideon AoZ, Batterskull (again), 2nd copy of Kalitas and Obzedat. The list is quite tight, though, I'm unsure what to take to add them other than the Sorins, which are already quite important.
NW is performing really well as a 4-off for me, though if your meta in infested with burn it might not be the best idea. I haven't felt it so harmful with 4 Vents, 3 Sorins that give Lifelink and the Vaults. Speaking of which, I wouldn't remove them, not only because it makes combat difficult for aggro decks (if they don't attack you are essentially buying turns to set up your walkers) but it also make your spirits semi-unblockable (no opponent would like to trade their Colonnades for a 1/1 on defense).
@Muad'dib That's a nice list. How is the Settle the Wreckage working for you? I've been thinking about trying it as a 1-of in the SB but my list is quite tight.
I've been trying out different configurations of the deck and noticed that it lacks mainly two things: a good early finisher and consistency on the draw. This is the last version I'm playing, which is actually doing quite well:
Kalitas is there to have a slight opportunity against Dredge on G1 and to add an early lifelinker against aggro decks. I've also tried Batterskull in this spot and, while it's really good, drawing it with Bob can be difficult. I also didn't want to have a higher curve.
I added +4 Night's Whispers to improve the overall consistency of the deck. This is the latest addition and, while it can look painful, we still have a lot of ways to gain life.
I also tweaked a bit the mana base, removing the Mutavaults in favor of Field of Ruin to have a better pairing against Tron, kill manlands and also Azcantas. I also added the playset of Steaming Vents to ensure I always have a manland and to gain some life or the NW.
I took out the Mutavaults in favor or Field of Ruin. My area is infested with Tron and I wanted to have a chance on game 1. Swapped Batterskull with Kalitas to have a chance against Dredge too.
The next things I want to try is adding some Path to Exile on the MD and Zealous Persecution on the SB. Most midrange decks play 6-8 targeted removal, and even if ours is not as versatile as Bolt or Trophy, PtE seems better than Cast Out against Dredge, Tron and LtLH. On the other hand, ZP looks good as a combat trick that also works against (Bl)inkmoth Nexus, Tokens and aggro decks.
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This is the current list I'm working on:
1 Nether Spirit
Spells
4 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
4 Night's Whisper
2 Collective Brutality
2 Kaya's Guile
Enchantments
2 Bitterblossom
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Lands
4 Marsh Flats
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Godless Shrine
4 Shambling Vent
4 Field of Ruin
4 Silent Clearing
1 Blast Zone
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Damping Sphere
2 Force of Despair
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Despark
3 Tocatli Honor Guard
EE and Damnation are also really good. I've also tried Settle the Wreckage but it seems too predictable on T4 when we need it. Bontu's is another decent option. Cleasing Nova seems too slow, though.
I actually really like Kambal, but I can't find a spot on my deck for the Honor Guards, so I might just cut them out if I start facing less combo and burn. Or I might cut the Fulminators all together since I already have many things to dream about beating Tron.
@Muad'dib what's your current list?
2 Extirpate
2 Damping Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Damnation
This is the SB I'm running right now, 2 FM and 2 DS that may turn into 4 FM (DS has actually been really good against Phoenix and Storm however). Now I only need to find room for the Honor Guards.
I have also been experimenting with Mentor of the Meek with somehow decent results. It is indeed somehow slow, but combined with Bitterblossom and LS it becomes a quite decent engine for card advantage. This is my most recent list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1705041#paper
I still have trouble agains Tron and combo, though the UW Control, BG and Phoenix MU are quite decent. We still need a good way to grow big and apply pressure beyond the tokens, and of course a removal for permanents that can somehow compete with Assassins Trophy. Maybe in 5 years when we revisit Ravnica.
I'm not really arguing FoR vs Mutavault nor if we should run land destruction MD, but if that land destruction should be on a land spot or on a 3cmc spot. The curve of the deck is really high, and having 10-11 3cmc cards and 4-5 4cmc cards results in a lot of hands where you can do nothing until turn 3-4.
Damping Sphere might be really good against Storm and Tron, though I find Stony Silence + GY removal (Spellbomb + RIP) more reliable, since Storm doesn't usually play enchantment removal and you can shut up Oblivion Stone and maps against Tron. That said, I wouldn't mind to try it as a 1-off on my SB since it is pretty versatile.
The last list I've been working on:
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
2 Collective Brutality
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Godless Shrine
3 Shambling Vent
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Field of Ruin
2 Mutavault
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Damnation
I'm trying both Mutavault and FoR on the same mana base, as well as Gideon AoZ as a finisher. I've also been testing 2 Fulminators MD, though, just to see if they perform better than I think, but I don't have conclusive results yet. I'd like to add the 3rd TSeize, I'll test if 3 Sorins and 2 Gideons are really necessary and if not I'll swap one of them.
I've changing my mana base a bit to add more white sources, and right now it looks like this:
2 Plains
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Marsh Flats
2 Fetid Heath
2 Mutavault
2 Field of Ruin
2 Godless Shrine
2 Shambling Vent
Those are 18 black and 16 white sources. I'd prefer to have 1-2 more basic lands, though.
Edit: the problem with Bog is that you don’t want it as a land drop but as a way to remove a gy later in the game, so if you draw it on you opening hand makes it more difficult to curve out.
Of course. I haven't had time to write the report, but in summary it was something like this:
The takeovers for me are that I need a more reliable finisher and that teching Spellbombs was a good choice, even if I didn't do well.
You are right, but FoR doesn't usually screw or curve (our mana base is already pretty consistent) but having 10-11 3cmc cards can make some hands too slow. And having both FoR and Fulminator really helps against Tron. In the MUps were Fulminator is not helpful (mostly Aggro), it's spot could be a removal or a cantrip, while FoR is still a land that doesn't hurt us much. However, I really missed Mutavaults, and I'm thinking about doing -1 VotA and -1 FoR to add +2 Mutavault. I might try 2 md Fulminators, though, if I'm able to find a place for them, since they could free me some spots in the SB and, as you say, it's still a good card.
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Marsh Flats
5 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Godless Shrine
4 Shambling Vent
2 Concealed Courtyard
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Field of Ruin
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
2 Collective Brutality
2 Night's Whisper
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Damnation
The results were... Well, really bad. However, I got some insights that might be interesting. The deck performed really well during the first few turns, but when the board was controlled, it lacked the speed to kill my opponents before they could recover. Almost every match can be resumed that way, really.
I had a Nihil Spellbomb teched on the last minute, and it resulted to be amazing. It's a great response against Storm and Snappies, as well as a way to not be completely dead against Dredge on game 1. I'd like to add a couple more MD, maybe replacing the Whispers since they have the same role.
Another card that resulted to be amazing was Field of Ruin. It helped a lot killing Azcantas and manlands. However, I really missed Mutavaults to pressure my opponents. On the other hand, I never had an opportunity to use VotA.
Since killpower seems to be what's lacking, I'm thinking about adding +3 Gideon, AoZ on the main deck. However, that makes it difficult to fit the Spellbombs. I'm not completely sold on the Fulminators MD, though, since FoR achieves the same results for the decks where FM is needed but it's not a just 2/2 for 3 mana for the matches where it's not.
I'm not convinced about Pack Rat, it does nothing when it ETB, it's not a great top deck and it's easy to kill until you have a copy, and even then a Maelstrom Pulse just deals with it.
I've been taking a look at different finishers. The cards I've been considering are Gideon AoZ, Batterskull (again), 2nd copy of Kalitas and Obzedat. The list is quite tight, though, I'm unsure what to take to add them other than the Sorins, which are already quite important.
I've been trying out different configurations of the deck and noticed that it lacks mainly two things: a good early finisher and consistency on the draw. This is the last version I'm playing, which is actually doing quite well:
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Instants
4 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
Lands
2 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
4 Field of Ruin
2 Plains
4 Shambling Vent
4 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Sorceries
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
4 Night's Whispers
Artifacts
2 Ensnaring Bridge
Creatures
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Fulminator Mage
Enchantments
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Anguished Unmaking
Sorceries
2 Damnation
Kalitas is there to have a slight opportunity against Dredge on G1 and to add an early lifelinker against aggro decks. I've also tried Batterskull in this spot and, while it's really good, drawing it with Bob can be difficult. I also didn't want to have a higher curve.
I added +4 Night's Whispers to improve the overall consistency of the deck. This is the latest addition and, while it can look painful, we still have a lot of ways to gain life.
I also tweaked a bit the mana base, removing the Mutavaults in favor of Field of Ruin to have a better pairing against Tron, kill manlands and also Azcantas. I also added the playset of Steaming Vents to ensure I always have a manland and to gain some life or the NW.
I took out the Mutavaults in favor or Field of Ruin. My area is infested with Tron and I wanted to have a chance on game 1. Swapped Batterskull with Kalitas to have a chance against Dredge too.
The next things I want to try is adding some Path to Exile on the MD and Zealous Persecution on the SB. Most midrange decks play 6-8 targeted removal, and even if ours is not as versatile as Bolt or Trophy, PtE seems better than Cast Out against Dredge, Tron and LtLH. On the other hand, ZP looks good as a combat trick that also works against (Bl)inkmoth Nexus, Tokens and aggro decks.